Nazi invasion plans for Britain (2 Viewers)

Rob

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11082316

This is interesting, it goes into some detail about how the Germans planned to invade Britain if they had beaten the RAF. Looks like the were going to send shock troops in British uniforms to seize and hold Dover until the main invasion force could arrive, never thought of it like this, kind of imagined a German 'D day' as it were.

Rob
 
I read some stuff on this a few years back quite similar to what you posted that rather than a grand invasion like D-Day etc it was units in strength at various points along the south coast to cause disaray and diversions allowing a larger force to take the big ports.

I think even had he landed he would have faced a stiffer resistance than anything they had seen on mainland europe. Thanks for posting the link
Mitch
 
I read some stuff on this a few years back quite similar to what you posted that rather than a grand invasion like D-Day etc it was units in strength at various points along the south coast to cause disaray and diversions allowing a larger force to take the big ports.

I think even had he landed he would have faced a stiffer resistance than anything they had seen on mainland europe. Thanks for posting the link
Mitch

There was also the docu a few years back that stated that a lot of the German high command were not enthusiastic about the invasion as the troops lacked experience in seaborne landings and the number and quality of invasion barges was poor. There was also doubt about the Luftwaffe's ability to destroy enough of the Royal Navy to stop them spoiling the party mid channel so to speak. One of Historys big 'what if's ' I guess , but thanks to those boys in Blue we will never know :cool::)

Rob
 
Thats why I said the other day the war turned after this battle. It was shown Hitler could be beaten and, the invincibility facade was over. Hard times ahead but, it was a cert we would eventually win. There was not enough harmony between kriegsmarine and other forces air and land worked well toghether but, not all three and, that was to our advantage. Its interesting though reading about the what if's
Mitch
 
Thats why I said the other day the war turned after this battle. It was shown Hitler could be beaten and, the invincibility facade was over. Hard times ahead but, it was a cert we would eventually win. There was not enough harmony between kriegsmarine and other forces air and land worked well toghether but, not all three and, that was to our advantage. Its interesting though reading about the what if's
Mitch

Hitler must have known he would be up against a nation and a leader who would do anything to stop him, Churchill sent a clear warning to him when he ordered the sinking of the French fleet. a terrible decision he had to make costing many lives, but it could have cost many more had the Germans got those ships, it also gave two fingers to Hitler.

I have recently been reading about how Churchill refused to make peace overtures and was determined to fight on despite Lord Halifax pushing for negotiations, Churchill was set upon resistance and he was right. It was his vision of defiance and eventual victory that put iron into his cabinet and got them on side, this was difficult as Churchill had not been in power long enough to have a strong power base and thus was still vulnerable.

Although a terrible defeat, once Dunkirk was over everybody knew where they stood, what forces we had for defence and Churchill began to shine, then enter people like Dowding and Park and the scene was set.

Hard to imagine today what peril our country was in 70years ago this very week, I simply can't read enough about it this year, even though I've read about it all my life!:)

Rob
 
Rob...

I think it was a brave and needed decision to sink the french fleet as had germany utilised some of the french capital ships the atlantic would have been a worse blood bath than it was so, his decison IMO was the right one and, must have privately shown Hitler what he was up against.
Mitch


Hitler must have known he would be up against a nation and a leader who would do anything to stop him, Churchill sent a clear warning to him when he ordered the sinking of the French fleet. a terrible decision he had to make costing many lives, but it could have cost many more had the Germans got those ships, it also gave two fingers to Hitler.

I have recently been reading about how Churchill refused to make peace overtures and was determined to fight on despite Lord Halifax pushing for negotiations, Churchill was set upon resistance and he was right. It was his vision of defiance and eventual victory that put iron into his cabinet and got them on side, this was difficult as Churchill had not been in power long enough to have a strong power base and thus was still vulnerable.

Although a terrible defeat, once Dunkirk was over everybody knew where they stood, what forces we had for defence and Churchill began to shine, then enter people like Dowding and Park and the scene was set.

Hard to imagine today what peril our country was in 70years ago this very week, I simply can't read enough about it this year, even though I've read about it all my life!:)

Rob
 
Rob...

I think it was a brave and needed decision to sink the french fleet as had germany utilised some of the french capital ships the atlantic would have been a worse blood bath than it was so, his decison IMO was the right one and, must have privately shown Hitler what he was up against.
Mitch

Yes I agree. It did have terrible ramifications for the French crews, as did in a similar way the pre D Day bombing of Normandy for French civilians, but its no exaggeration to say that the fate of the free world was at stake and the War had to be won at all costs. Its an example of the kind of decisions and stress these people at the top were under in those days, the fate of nations in their hands, can't have been easy.

Rob
 
Rob...

Although the germans coined the phrase total war I think Churchill knew what it would take long before them and, this is his brilliance for me, in that he prepared the country and, for that matter, the rest of the world for what was to come
Mitch


Yes I agree. It did have terrible ramifications for the French crews, as did in a similar way the pre D Day bombing of Normandy for French civilians, but its no exaggeration to say that the fate of the free world was at stake and the War had to be won at all costs. Its an example of the kind of decisions and stress these people at the top were under in those days, the fate of nations in their hands, can't have been easy.

Rob
 
Rob...

Although the germans coined the phrase total war I think Churchill knew what it would take long before them and, this is his brilliance for me, in that he prepared the country and, for that matter, the rest of the world for what was to come
Mitch

Absolutely, he was the right man with the right determination and attitude at the right time, he must have been heartbroken when voted out at the end of the War, but I guess the British public wanted a complete break from the War and everything that went with it. Probably a main reason there was such little interest in the Korean War just five years later. All those years of Bombings,rationing, blackouts and the loss of so many must have left those affected so War weary you can understand it.

Despite his faults and human errors I thank God for Churchill, someone said on the radio the other day that he was the first to really use the English language as a weapon, he galvanized the people of these Islands and across the world with his defiance, he must have been Hitlers biggest pain in the arse, god bless him!:D

Rob
 
I think the clean break rings true and its hard to understand what the people went through so, although it stayed hard for many years it was seen as a new beginning and I suppose, that meant new government.

Absolutely agree about the right man at the right time
Mitch
 
Cummon the RAF!:D:cool:
And Navy of course!:D
And last but certainly not least the army!:D:cool:
 
Sorry, but this is hardly news. It was known even during the war, that the Germans had plans to invade Britain, it was only a question of how serious they were, and it became clearer as the summer of '40 wore on that they weren't serious about a physical invasion. Peter Fleming's "Operation Sea Lion" is a pretty good book on the subject, if I remember correctly (I lost the copy that I once had).

Interesting details were the lists the Sicherheitsdienst drew up of the people they would arrest, once the invasion was complete. Churchill, of course, but also Chamberlain, other leading politicians, some of whose names were badly misspelled.

I think a more interesting counterfactual, though, is an Imperial German invasion of Britain circa 1900, a la "When William Came", by Saki. " 'Grossmutterdenkmal, ja?', the cab driver said."

Prost!
Brad
 
Absolutely, he was the right man with the right determination and attitude at the right time, he must have been heartbroken when voted out at the end of the War, but I guess the British public wanted a complete break from the War and everything that went with it. Probably a main reason there was such little interest in the Korean War just five years later. All those years of Bombings,rationing, blackouts and the loss of so many must have left those affected so War weary you can understand it.

Despite his faults and human errors I thank God for Churchill, someone said on the radio the other day that he was the first to really use the English language as a weapon, he galvanized the people of these Islands and across the world with his defiance, he must have been Hitlers biggest pain in the arse, god bless him!:D

Rob

Don't get me wrong; without Churchill's leadership the war might have been lost...but don't forget, he also created Iraq! (rather randomly too) :)
 
Sorry, but this is hardly news. It was known even during the war, that the Germans had plans to invade Britain, it was only a question of how serious they were, and it became clearer as the summer of '40 wore on that they weren't serious about a physical invasion. Peter Fleming's "Operation Sea Lion" is a pretty good book on the subject, if I remember correctly (I lost the copy that I once had).

Interesting details were the lists the Sicherheitsdienst drew up of the people they would arrest, once the invasion was complete. Churchill, of course, but also Chamberlain, other leading politicians, some of whose names were badly misspelled.

I think a more interesting counterfactual, though, is an Imperial German invasion of Britain circa 1900, a la "When William Came", by Saki. " 'Grossmutterdenkmal, ja?', the cab driver said."



Prost!
Brad



Yes of course everybody knows about the invasion plan and that actual plans were drawn up, but I don't think this Dover seize and hold plan was well known, so I thought it may of been of interest to some.

Rob
 
The Germans certainly were serious about invasion, but the success was dependant upon several important items. They had no dedicated landing vessels and so collected all the barges they could find which, despite modifications, were by no means ideal. I have photographs showing the efforts made to load them with horse drawn artillery and it is obvious that this was not easy or speedy. They would have had to seal the English Channel with mines as the British fleet was still intact and the wash from a destroyer would have swamped the barges let alone it's fire power. They had to have control of the air, and we know how that attempt panned out. Any air drop would have had to be supported fairly quickly as they would have been dependant on small arms alone initially and would have to rely on the main invasion force to break through with heavy weapons. And of course there was the "black" propaganda about setting the sea on fire which was an unknown factor to be taken into account. They certainly made preparations and were intent on attempting the action but to succeed overall every section had to interlock. Failure in one meant the failure of the entire plan and Goering's attempts to gain control of the air was the major factor in the plan's abandonment.
 
I just do not understand what the comment about Iraq has to do with anything at all especially the invasion of England. Is this some quasi attempt to blame that country's issues at Churchills door or, an attempt at humour??
Mitch

Don't get me wrong; without Churchill's leadership the war might have been lost...but don't forget, he also created Iraq! (rather randomly too) :)
 
I believe the Pimpernel's reference was to Churchill's role as Secretary of State for the Colonies in the early 1920s in creating Iraq (as well as other nations such as Jordan) out of the vestiges of the Ottoman Empire.

With regard to Churchill's role as Secretary of State for the Colonies and his attitude to colonial peoples, there is a relatively new book out called "Churchill's Empire," by Richard Toye, a British historian, which was recently reviewed in the New York Times, which I've reprinted below. Before you blow a gasket and want to kill the messenger, please read the entire review.

*****

Winston Churchill is remembered for leading Britain through her finest hour — but what if he also led the country through her most shameful one? What if, in addition to rousing a nation to save the world from the Nazis, he fought for a raw white supremacy and a concentration camp network of his own? This question burns through Richard Toye’s superb, unsettling new history, “Churchill’s Empire” — and is even seeping into the Oval Office.

George Bush left a big growling bust of Churchill near his desk in the White House, in an attempt to associate himself with Churchill’s heroic stand against fascism. Barack Obama had it returned to Britain. It’s not hard to guess why: his Kenyan grandfather, Hussein Onyango Obama, was imprisoned without trial for two years and tortured on Churchill’s watch, for resisting Churchill’s empire.

Can these clashing Churchills be reconciled? Do we live, at the same time, in the world he helped to save and the world he helped to trash? Toye, one of Britain’s smartest young historians, has tried to pick through these questions dispassionately. Churchill was born in 1874 into a Britain that was coloring the map imperial pink, at the cost of washing distant nations blood-red. He was told a simple story: the superior white man was conquering the primitive dark-skinned natives, and bringing them the benefits of civilization.

As soon as he could, Churchill charged off to take his part in “a lot of jolly little wars against barbarous peoples.” In the Swat valley, now part of Pakistan, he experienced, fleetingly, an instant of doubt. He realized that the local population was fighting back because of “the presence of British troops in lands the local people considered their own,” just as Britain would if she were invaded. But Churchill soon suppressed this thought, deciding instead that they were merely deranged jihadists whose violence was explained by a “strong aboriginal propensity to kill.”

He gladly took part in raids that laid waste to whole valleys, writing: “We proceeded systematically, village by village, and we destroyed the houses, filled up the wells, blew down the towers, cut down the shady trees, burned the crops and broke the reservoirs in punitive devastation.” He then sped off to help reconquer the Sudan, where he bragged that he personally shot at least three “savages.”

The young Churchill charged through imperial atrocities, defending each in turn. When the first concentration camps were built in South Africa, he said they produced “the minimum of suffering” possible. At least 115,000 people were swept into them and 14,000 died, but he wrote only of his “irritation that kaffirs should be allowed to fire on white men.” Later, he boasted of his experiences. “That was before war degenerated,” he said. “It was great fun galloping about.”

After being elected to Parliament in 1900, he demanded a rolling program of more conquests, based on his belief that “the Aryan stock is bound to triumph.” As war secretary and then colonial secretary in the 1920s, he unleashed the notorious Black and Tans on Ireland’s Catholics, to burn homes and beat civilians. When the Kurds rebelled against British rule in Iraq, he said: “I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes.” It “would spread a lively terror.” (Strangely, Toye doesn’t quote this.)

Of course, it’s easy to dismiss any criticism of these actions as anachronistic. Didn’t everybody in Britain think that way then? One of the most striking findings of Toye’s research is that they really didn’t: even at the time, Churchill was seen as standing at the most brutal and brutish end of the British imperialist spectrum. This was clearest in his attitude to India. When Gandhi began his campaign of peaceful resistance, Churchill raged that he “ought to be lain bound hand and foot at the gates of Delhi and then trampled on by an enormous elephant with the new Viceroy seated on its back.” He later added: “I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.”

This hatred killed. In 1943, to give just one example, a famine broke out in Bengal, caused, as the Nobel Prize-winning economist Amartya Sen has proven, by British mismanagement. To the horror of many of his colleagues, Churchill raged that it was their own fault for “breeding like rabbits” and refused to offer any aid for months while hundreds of thousands died.

Hussein Onyango Obama is unusual among Churchill’s victims only in one respect: his story has been rescued from the slipstream of history. Churchill believed the highlands, the most fertile land in Kenya, should be the sole preserve of the white settlers, and approved of the clearing out of the local “kaffirs.” When the Kikuyu rebelled under Churchill’s postwar premiership, some 150,000 of them were forced at gunpoint into detention camps, later called “Britain’s gulag” by the historian Caroline Elkins. Obama never truly recovered from the torture he endured.

This is a real Churchill, and a dark one — but it is not the only Churchill. He also saw the Nazi threat far ahead of the complacent British establishment, and his extraordinary leadership may have been the decisive factor in vanquishing Hitlerism from Europe. Toye is no Nicholson Baker, the appalling pseudo*historian whose recent work “Human Smoke” presented Churchill as no different from Hitler. Toye sees all this, clearly and emphatically.

So how can the two Churchills be reconciled? Was his moral opposition to Nazism a charade, masking the fact that he was merely trying to defend the British Empire from a rival? Toye quotes Richard B. Moore, an American civil rights leader, who said that it was “a most rare and fortunate coincidence” that at that moment “the vital interests of the British Empire” coincided “with those of the great overwhelming majority of mankind.” But this might be too soft in its praise. If Churchill had been interested only in saving the empire, he could probably have cut a deal with Hitler. No: he had a deeper repugnance to Nazism than that. He may have been a thug, but he knew a greater thug when he saw one — and we may owe our freedom today to this wrinkle in history.

This is the great, enduring paradox of Churchill’s life. In leading the charge against Nazism, he produced some of the richest prose poetry in defense of freedom and democracy ever written. It was a check he didn’t want black or Asian people to cash, but as the Ghanaian nationalist Kwame Nkrumah wrote, “all the fair brave words spoken about freedom that had been broadcast to the four corners of the earth took seed and grew where they had not been intended.” Churchill lived to see democrats across Britain’s imperial conquests use his own hope-songs of freedom against him.

In the end, the words of the great and glorious Churchill who resisted dictatorship overwhelmed the works of the cruel and cramped Churchill who tried to impose it on the world’s people of color. Toye teases out these ambiguities beautifully. The fact that we now live at a time where a free and independent India is an emerging superpower in the process of eclipsing Britain, and a grandson of the Kikuyu “savages” is the most powerful man in the world, is a repudiation of Churchill at his ugliest — and a sweet, unsought victory for Churchill at his best.

*****
 
No killing the messenger here Brad my friend!:D May well be true Brad, I've read similar things especially in relation to Ghandi before, may be an interesting read. But this year of all years I personally am only interested in how he helped save this country, keep it a bastion of freedom and defy the Nazi's who had overun every other country they wished. His spirit, his attitude of defiance and his rallying call to the people of these Islands are what we in this country are celebrating this year, without wishing to sound callous or cold I am only interested this year in what a superb job he did during those years. There will always be time to consider other aspects of Churchill, he was an interesting character with faults and no doubt darker sides to his nature, and he surely did enjoy War abroard in his youth. He is not without sin or critics, but God bless that Cigar smoking,Brandy swilling old Sod...he's a hero;)

There that didn't hurt did it mate??:D:D;)

Rob
 

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