New Custer Movie (1 Viewer)

[trooper]

The main problem with any film depicting historical events, irrespective of period or incident, is that they are slanted toward todays opinions and standards. People had a different view of things in the past, even as recently as WW2 or Vietnam. Things that were acceptable then are now regarded with open mouthed horror by today's generation who just cannot get their heads around how these things could be tolerated. Simple answer is that is the way it was. History is the window on the past that we should learn from, so that the same mistakes are not repeated but it is no use applying lofty ideals to that which is done, the past cannot be changed. Future historians will no doubt look back on our lives with the same incredulity and wonder how we could behave in the way we do, or did.

 

[UKReb]

I swore to myself I would keep out of this thread after the deliberate opinionated baiting posts but thanks to Dave and Michael et al it appears to have settled back again into an intelligent discussion.

Trooper referred to "open mouthed horror by todays generation" when viewing some movies of yesteryear and Mark referred to The Searchers-one can make a very good correalation between these two comments.

Ford's The Searchers stands by general assent of Western movie-buffs as a monument or a touchstone of American cinema-it is a film by which Hollywood may be measured and yet today it is vilified and anyone who considers it a fine film is almost branded a racist. The film is without doubt completely misunderstood by todays audience.
The film mesmerises not only our eyes with it's glorious vistas but our feelings, Ford deliberately set out to make a film about the perennial American problem of race-being Ford, he both shows Ethan for what he is, a murderous racist, and yet draws out our pity for him. The contradictions of Ethan's character, his strength, his hatred, his bigotry cannot be easily resolved but at the end of the film when he finds love-not hatred for his kin Ford still punishes him in the famous last scene-the door closes on him and shuts him out from family and human companionship. He is indeed a man alone.

To enjoy this absolutely classic film today does not make me feel guilty in the slightest due to my above synopsis and understanding of what Ford was attempting to depict-it is simply not a racist movie in fact the complete opposite-Ford and Wayne each deserved an oscar for this outing and the Duke was never better displaying in scene after scene an outstanding acting prowess that only Ford could literally bully out of him.

Bringing this post back onto the subject matter-a scene was filmed where Ethan and Marty actually meet Custer at the fort but Ford deleted the scene for some unexplained reason. I too would love to see a movie based on the controversial character of Custer but I don't want another Flynn version and neither do I want a Richard Mulligan version from Little Big Man. Hollywood - in my opinion- has yet to capture the real Custer on screen-maybe one day when cinema audiences are able to discern the difference between historical fact and political correctness- but I'm not holding my breath!

Reb

 

[trooper]

I think the main problem about producing a film about Custer is that public opinion of him is either black or white, there doesn't appear to be any shades of grey. To some he is the great hero, to others a scheming self centred blackguard, and those battle lines are too firmly entrenched for any objective study by Hollywood. We could, and I indeed hope we can, carry on exchanging and debating incidents from his life and career, but I don't think those opinions will change to any great extent. But it is fun trying.

 

[Aleš]

No matter is it western or any other movie,it is always two option:
-you like the movie
-you do not like the movie
So,there is no point of thinking you will make a movie every body like.Like i say before if you watch WW2 movies and if you are german maybe you do not like movie so much as you are Russian,English,American,...Or if you watch Zulu movie and you are black i doubt that you like the same as if you are English,....but this is not immportant.People still go watch the movie an dthey make opinion by their self if they like it or not.If they like it than they will buy DVD,or watch two,three,...times if you do not like it you will not watch never again.It is that simple.
So if they make Custer movie no matter how the Custer will be(hero,idiot) we will watch the movie and than we will discuss what we like or not like in the movie.
So i do not see the reason that they will not film the movie,because i am sure people will watch it,but if they like after that it is diferent question,but that will not stop Holywood make his dollars(and this is immportant for them).
People will forgot about this movie after some time anyway like they forgot other movies.
But if they film Spiderman,Superman,Batman,...and other crap i do not know why they can not make a western movie too.I doubt that it will be worst than Spiderman,Batman,Superman,...

 

[eborris]

If you are trying to trivialize this discussion, it is not appreciated. If not, I apologize for suggesting so. Could you please elaborate a little more on this particular subject, which is really pretty interesting I think.

MD

For the most part movies are made to entertain us, they may follow history to some extent, but in most cases they are not entirely accurate, they have a tendency to spin things to fit their agenda. So, when I watch a movie, I watch it for it's entertainment value. Most books on the other hand are re-telling a historical event that may or not reflect the authors viewpoint. So, if I am looking for a more less accurate account of history I read a book about the subject.

 

[trooper]

No matter is it western or any other movie,it is always two option:
-you like the movie
-you do not like the movie
So,there is no point of thinking you will make a movie every body like.Like i say before if you watch WW2 movies and if you are german maybe you do not like movie so much as you are Russian,English,American,...Or if you watch Zulu movie and you are black i doubt that you like the same as if you are English,....but this is not immportant.People still go watch the movie an dthey make opinion by their self if they like it or not.If they like it than they will buy DVD,or watch two,three,...times if you do not like it you will not watch never again.It is that simple.
So if they make Custer movie no matter how the Custer will be(hero,idiot) we will watch the movie and than we will discuss what we like or not like in the movie.
So i do not see the reason that they will not film the movie,because i am sure people will watch it,but if they like after that it is diferent question,but that will not stop Holywood make his dollars(and this is immportant for them).
People will forgot about this movie after some time anyway like they forgot other movies.
But if they film Spiderman,Superman,Batman,...and other crap i do not know why they can not make a western movie too.I doubt that it will be worst than Spiderman,Batman,Superman,...

Ales, the point is that Hollywood won't make the movie because if they portray him as a hero they will lose the anti hero customers, and vice versa. If they try to portray him in shades of grey they will alienate both camps. We would all love the film to be made but Hollywood is very dollar orientated and wants to produce a guaranteed success. If public opinion is divided I doubt they will take a risk. Our opinion doesn't count.

 

[Aleš]

Ok i understand now.
Well than should make some other western movie.Forgot about Custer,than they should film some other western movies not based on a true story,just movie with lots of fighting,maybe period of Sioux war 1862-1872 Red Clowd,Sitting Bull,Crazy Horse they all take part in this period of time.Or Based on Tecumseh,that he try to unite the indian tribes,....there is plenty of material for a nice western.

 

[UKReb]

Ed is correct movies are primarily made for pure entertainment and Hollywood is notorious for changing history to suit the film script-problem is the majority of cinema-goers actually believe that what they are seeing on screen is the truth. An example which I can assure you is not true is that although every villian portrayed in todays Hollywood movies are Brits-we aint all bad guys

The character of Custer has been for me a real enigma-he was a brilliant ACW cavalry commander-a brevetted Brigadier General at 23 years old and revered by his officers and men during the struggle which came to an abrupt stop after Appomattox- where most officers and men settled back easily into civilian life or peace-time soldiering-he was completely unable to do so and spent the next eleven years trying to imitate his glory days. His mentor Sheridan no doubt fed this hunger by making him a key commander for the Plains Indian Wars and his actions there destroyed his ACW reputation and turned him into a historical pariah. But this was exactly the make-up/character of Custer he couldn't help himself! the Indian was the enemy exactly as his fellow Americans the Confederates were the enemy which is where he had learned that total war brought victory.

As a personal side-bar I have always believed that had he survived the LBH he would have still searched for military glory (I don't believe politically-he was first and foremost a soldier) and most probably would have found it again by commanding the cavalry with Roosevelt's Rough Riders during the Cuban war because he would have only been 59 years old and that old Reb Fighting Joe Wheeler was in the thick of it in his mid-sixties.

Reb

 

[damian]

I swore to myself I would keep out of this thread after the deliberate opinionated baiting posts but thanks to Dave and Michael et al it appears to have settled back again into an intelligent discussion.

Trooper referred to "open mouthed horror by todays generation" when viewing some movies of yesteryear and Mark referred to The Searchers-one can make a very good correalation between these two comments.

Ford's The Searchers stands by general assent of Western movie-buffs as a monument or a touchstone of American cinema-it is a film by which Hollywood may be measured and yet today it is vilified and anyone who considers it a fine film is almost branded a racist. The film is without doubt completely misunderstood by todays audience.
The film mesmerises not only our eyes with it's glorious vistas but our feelings, Ford deliberately set out to make a film about the perennial American problem of race-being Ford, he both shows Ethan for what he is, a murderous racist, and yet draws out our pity for him. The contradictions of Ethan's character, his strength, his hatred, his bigotry cannot be easily resolved but at the end of the film when he finds love-not hatred for his kin Ford still punishes him in the famous last scene-the door closes on him and shuts him out from family and human companionship. He is indeed a man alone.

To enjoy this absolutely classic film today does not make me feel guilty in the slightest due to my above synopsis and understanding of what Ford was attempting to depict-it is simply not a racist movie in fact the complete opposite-Ford and Wayne each deserved an oscar for this outing and the Duke was never better displaying in scene after scene an outstanding acting prowess that only Ford could literally bully out of him.

Bringing this post back onto the subject matter-a scene was filmed where Ethan and Marty actually meet Custer at the fort but Ford deleted the scene for some unexplained reason. I too would love to see a movie based on the controversial character of Custer but I don't want another Flynn version and neither do I want a Richard Mulligan version from Little Big Man. Hollywood - in my opinion- has yet to capture the real Custer on screen-maybe one day when cinema audiences are able to discern the difference between historical fact and political correctness- but I'm not holding my breath!

Reb

With all due respect I find this particular movie to be mind numbingly boring as with most of John Wayne's canon.
Custer would always have been remembered for his ACW exploits but serioulsy if he had won LBH or if it had simply turned into another fruitless search and destroy mission in which he turned up empty handed I doubt if there would be a single movie about him today.
So in some ways he was lucky to lose LBH. A bit like the AZW if not for Islandwana and RD then it would be as fogotten as any of the 9 Cape Frontier Wars. The detail of the events will ever remain murky and beyond verification in this existence. SO it is the manner in which the story is remebered and exploited and represented that is more important. This manipulation began almost as soon as word of teh disaster leaked out and has continued ever since.Just as there is a lot of evidence to suggest that RD was "hyped" to play down a major defeat so with LBH. If LBH had never happened would it have made a difference to the Native Americans. I doubt it. They were a doomed society and their destruction was pretty much inevitable. I doubt if there really is such a thing as an "historical fact" when one considers LBH.

 

[Aleš]

even if they do not film this new Custer movie,there is already a Custer movie where play Robert Shaw and Jeffrey Hunter.I have this movie in my collection but i do not think it is good movie.Ok,if we know that this movie is made in the 1970 or something like that,maybe it was good movie for that time,and there are some nice dialogues between Custer and Sheridan,...it is more of a "broadway play" than a movie i think,and even if they show the Custer,his live,...the battle at the end is very bad filmed,no body mention crazy Horse,Sitting Bull,....they keep talking about the Cheyene chief(???),but no mention about Sioux(??),so i do not think the producer read any novel about LBH

 

[UKReb]

I doubt if there really is such a thing as an "historical fact" when one considers LBH.

Well someone killed Custer and his command at the Little Big Horn-with my scant knowledge that alone constitutes a "historical fact"-I think

Reb

 

[eborris]

Well someone killed Custer and his command at the Little Big Horn-with my scant knowledge that alone constitutes a "historical fact"-I think

Reb

Sounds right to me.

 

[trooper]

It is interesting to speculate on what Custer would have been like had he not been posted to McClellan's staff. Custer idolised him and adopted many of his mannerisms. Unfortunately McClellan had high political ambitions, courted the press, and was prone to present his own actions in the most grandiose terms while disparaging everyone else. Traits that soon became apparent in Custer.

 

[UKReb]

It is interesting to speculate on what Custer would have been like had he not been posted to McClellan's staff. Custer idolised him and adopted many of his mannerisms. Unfortunately McClellan had high political ambitions, courted the press, and was prone to present his own actions in the most grandiose terms while disparaging everyone else. Traits that soon became apparent in Custer.

Whoa! tread carefully trooper you are now quoting historical facts and apparently on this particular subject they count for zilch-opinions only please

Reb

 

[trooper]

Whoa! tread carefully trooper you are now quoting historical facts and apparently on this particular subject they count for zilch-opinions only please

Reb

To qoute the Duke, That'll be the day.

 

[maddadicus]

As a sidebar, Ford also directed Ales' " favorite " movie...The Unforgiven. It seems that this director was before his time in subject matter and movie theme. AND YOU DAMIAN...FROM THIS ONE -EYED FAT MAN...FILL YOUR HAND ,YOU SUN OF A B...... I am disappointed in your assessment of my Duke's movies..The Searchers, The Shootist, Fighting Kentuckians, the list goes on. Michael

 

[eborris]

Most of John Wayne's movies were great from an action standpoint, however it seemed like there were long periods of inaction and seemingly pointless conversation and quite often they had some bizarre character who's purposes was unknown to me, Mose for one.

Maybe, it was a strange attempt at comedy relief, but I never saw the purpose.

 

[Harrytheheid]

I swore to myself I would keep out of this thread after the deliberate opinionated baiting posts but thanks to Dave and Michael et al it appears to have settled back again into an intelligent discussion.

Trooper referred to "open mouthed horror by todays generation" when viewing some movies of yesteryear and Mark referred to The Searchers-one can make a very good correalation between these two comments.

Ford's The Searchers stands by general assent of Western movie-buffs as a monument or a touchstone of American cinema-it is a film by which Hollywood may be measured and yet today it is vilified and anyone who considers it a fine film is almost branded a racist. The film is without doubt completely misunderstood by todays audience.
The film mesmerises not only our eyes with it's glorious vistas but our feelings, Ford deliberately set out to make a film about the perennial American problem of race-being Ford, he both shows Ethan for what he is, a murderous racist, and yet draws out our pity for him. The contradictions of Ethan's character, his strength, his hatred, his bigotry cannot be easily resolved but at the end of the film when he finds love-not hatred for his kin Ford still punishes him in the famous last scene-the door closes on him and shuts him out from family and human companionship. He is indeed a man alone.

To enjoy this absolutely classic film today does not make me feel guilty in the slightest due to my above synopsis and understanding of what Ford was attempting to depict-it is simply not a racist movie in fact the complete opposite-Ford and Wayne each deserved an oscar for this outing and the Duke was never better displaying in scene after scene an outstanding acting prowess that only Ford could literally bully out of him.

Bringing this post back onto the subject matter-a scene was filmed where Ethan and Marty actually meet Custer at the fort but Ford deleted the scene for some unexplained reason. I too would love to see a movie based on the controversial character of Custer but I don't want another Flynn version and neither do I want a Richard Mulligan version from Little Big Man. Hollywood - in my opinion- has yet to capture the real Custer on screen-maybe one day when cinema audiences are able to discern the difference between historical fact and political correctness- but I'm not holding my breath!

Reb

Well, for what it's worth, this is quite the best summation I've ever read, of my favourite Wayne/Ford movie of all time.
Way ahead of it's time - and yes - Wayne should have got an oscar. His acting in The Searchers was simply outstanding. A movie I can watch time and again - and still catch something I missed the first time.

Rgds
H

 

[damian]

As a sidebar, Ford also directed Ales' " favorite " movie...The Unforgiven. It seems that this director was before his time in subject matter and movie theme. AND YOU DAMIAN...FROM THIS ONE -EYED FAT MAN...FILL YOUR HAND ,YOU SUN OF A B...... I am disappointed in your assessment of my Duke's movies..The Searchers, The Shootist, Fighting Kentuckians, the list goes on. Michael

I am sorry to disapoint Michael.
I have tried to see what everyone else sees in him but just do not get it.
Gary Cooper, Gary Grant, Clint, The Magnificent Seven, Butch and Sundance etc I enjoy, but when it comes to John Wayne movies I find them all repetitive and boring. The Duke himself hardly even seems to be capable of acting. Stagecoach is made by the other actors and Wayne seems more animated there than anywhere else. Red River it is the rather tragic Monty Clift who I found to be the most interesting (Even the Clash wrote a song about him). The Searchers by the end of that I felt I had aged five years waiting to get to the point. You know Ethna and sidekick go on a ride, ethan and sidekick in the desert, then again by a river oh there goes another view of Monument Valley.

So sorry I am not a member of his fan club.

 

[trooper]

I must say that although in the main I like John Wayne's films there are certain scenes that make me squirm but in fairness they are the fault of the director rather than Wayne. The "humerous" punch ups, Wayne couldn't handle comedy, the unecessary songs, and that horrible little saccharine girl in "The Alamo", I wanted her stuffed into a cannon and fired at the Mexicans. Couldn't you work that into your Alamo diorama for me, Reb?