Normandy Panther WS072 (1 Viewer)

[Saber]

BTW the 1st ID was at Normandy. If any member wants an american units battle history most of the units maintain official sites where you can quickly find out if they participated in a particuler battle/campaign.

 

[Saber]

Hurtgen Forest, now thats a forgotten battle! Truely a nasty brutal slugfest. Glad you brought it up, maybe it will lead to some other ranges outside of D-DAY/Bulge.

 

[fmethorst]

Tell me more about that please. I've never really read anything about the German side of the story/experience so I'm admittedly quite naive in this area.

MD

Perhaps this campaign map can help:

You can see that on June 17 1944 the 1st Infantry division was faced off against 3.Fallschirmjager-Division and the 2.Panzer-Division. The powerful Panzer-Lehr-Division is also in the vicinity.

The 17. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Götz von Berlichingen" fought the Americans further west but didn't have Panthers. The other SS units were commited against the Brits and Canadians.

This situation was constantly changing and one would have to consider each day in isolation.

Frank

 

[OzDigger]

BTW the 1st ID was at Normandy. If any member wants an american units battle history most of the units maintain official sites where you can quickly find out if they participated in a particuler battle/campaign.

We know the 1st Inf Div was at Normandy. The 'issue' was if they faced Waffen SS troops there, which is very unlikely as most of the elite German units were against the British and Canadians near the coast.

 

[Mister Dave]

Great map Frank, thanks. This tank as marked is 12th SS which appears to have lingered near Caen and the British/Canadian's as OD alluded to. This is all very helpful. I still like the looks of the tank, but will have to decide if I want to re-think what to do with the BR1 guys or just go ahead and make an anachronistic diorama and say the heck with it. Thanks to the rest of you for your votes of confidence on the Panther. The wealth of knowledge on this forum is most impressive indeed.

MD

 

[OzDigger]

MD, it's true that the K & C Normandy wouldn't have faced any 1st Inf Div troops but don't let that stop you from using it in a diorama. K & C vehicles have insignia from a wide variety of divisions etc and sometimes you need to overlook these. For example I am using the Eastern Front badged Hummel and Gepard in a sorta Battle of the Bulge dio.

 

[Saber]

Very true. Just suggesting that you could do a diorama and use the supposition of a scratched up unit fighting 1ID. Speaking of the UK and Commonwealth any chance of this ranges D-Day/Normandy line increasing?

 

[graycap]

If you want to see pictures of Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS troops and equipment before and after combat with US forces in Normandy from July onwards try a get hold of a copy of "Ruckmarsch; the German Retreat from Normandy" by Jean Paul Pallud, After the Battle, Harlow, United Kingdon, 2006, 370 odd pages, great photos.

 

[Currahee Chris]

Does it 'have' to be Normandy Dave

The Big Red One did a lot of the hard fighting for the US Army. However IMHO it has been largely overlooked by Hollywood in favour of more elite units such as the 81st and 101st Airborne.

You can use the Big Red One figures in a number of different scenarios including the Battle of the Bulge or The Battle for the Hurtgen Forest. The later being the longest continual land battle in US history.

Spot On Oz- of course, there was the Big Red One movie with Lee Marvin put out in the early 80's- had that little snot Mark Hamil as one of the troops in the platoon- loved it when Lee Marvin was shooting at him on the DDay beaches- man, I wish he hit him!! That would put an end to that little jedi knight!!!

Anyway, the Bloody Bucket, 28th ID- Pa Army National Guard was entrenched in that battle- Heurtgen. Very interesting but it was so deadly that there was a mutual ceasefire so that both sides could clear the casualties. Anyway, yes, another "famous" WW2 unit I was in- the 2-112th Inf.

If anyone wants to see a very well done HBO flick on that battle- try out When Trumpets Fade

 

[Mister Dave]

If you want to see pictures of Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS troops and equipment before and after combat with US forces in Normandy from July onwards try a get hold of a copy of "Ruckmarsch; the German Retreat from Normandy" by Jean Paul Pallud, After the Battle, Harlow, United Kingdon, 2006, 370 odd pages, great photos.

Hey, thanks for the recommendation. I'll be on the look out for that one.

MD

 

[Mister Dave]

Quick question re: set WS062 Jagdpanther riders. What does the base on the most standing upright figure in this set look like? Guessing it looks like part of the tank possibly? Told you it was a quick question.

 

[Warrior]

MD,
That figure does not have a base, he stands on his own two feet literally.................

 

[Mister Dave]

Thanks George.

MD

 

[OzDigger]

If you want to see pictures of Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS troops and equipment before and after combat with US forces in Normandy from July onwards try a get hold of a copy of "Ruckmarsch; the German Retreat from Normandy" by Jean Paul Pallud, After the Battle, Harlow, United Kingdon, 2006, 370 odd pages, great photos.

Thanks Graycap, it's hard to find reliable reference material concerning regular US troops up against Waffen SS in Normandy. I have 'Steel Rain - Waffen SS Panzer Battles in the West 1944-1945' but it has very little about US Army units in Normandy. Does the above book "Ruckmarsch; the German Retreat from Normandy" book include photos of Waffen SS in camouflage uniforms linked with 1st Inf Div troops?

That would be great if true as we know that Panthers were facing American troops in Normandy being part of the 2nd SS Panzer Division (Das Reich) and maybe from Panzer Lehr Division. And as I said below, the wrong insignia on the recent K & C Panther shouldn't stop us from using it in a diorama with the K & C US 1st Inf Div (Big Red 1) troops.

Btw I have a small Osprey book called 'Operation Cobra 1944 - Breakout from Normandy'. On pages 27 and 50 there are photos of troops from the US 2nd Armored Division troops in camouflaged battledress. Apparently these camo outfits resulted in a number of friendly fire incidents and they went back to field drab uniforms in August 1944. Wouldn't it be great if K & C issued a set or two of these guys in camo outfits.

What surprised me the most is that the pattern looks very similar to Australia's Ozcam uniform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_Pattern_Camouflage

 

[Mister Dave]

Thanks Graycap, it's hard to find reliable reference material concerning regular US troops up against Waffen SS in Normandy. I have 'Steel Rain - Waffen SS Panzer Battles in the West 1944-1945' but it has very little about US Army units in Normandy. Does the above book "Ruckmarsch; the German Retreat from Normandy" book include photos of Waffen SS in camouflage uniforms linked with 1st Inf Div troops?

That would be great if true as we know that Panthers were facing American troops in Normandy being part of the 2nd SS Panzer Division (Das Reich) and maybe from Panzer Lehr Division. And as I said below, the wrong insignia on the recent K & C Panther shouldn't stop us from using it in a diorama with the K & C US 1st Inf Div (Big Red 1) troops.

Btw I have a small Osprey book called 'Operation Cobra 1944 - Breakout from Normandy'. On pages 27 and 50 there are photos of troops from the US 2nd Armored Division troops in camouflaged battledress. Apparently these camo outfits resulted in a number of friendly fire incidents and they went back to field drab uniforms in August 1944. Wouldn't it be great if K & C issued a set or two of these guys in camo outfits.

What surprised me the most is that the pattern looks very similar to Australia's Ozcam uniform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_Pattern_Camouflage

Doesn't ONTC have some 2nd Armored figures in camo. uniforms?

MD

 

[OzDigger]

Doesn't ONTC have some 2nd Armored figures in camo. uniforms?

MD

Could have, I don't know. But I reckon K & C versions would enjoy some good sales success.

 

[fmethorst]

I've been doing some more research around SS Panzer Divisions in Normandy and this is what I've come up with.

17.SS.Panzergrenadier-Division "Götz von Berlichingen" was engaged with the 101st Airborne Division as of June 11 and then CCA of the 2nd Armored Division. They continued to fight the Americans for the rest of the month. This division was in the line of advance for Operation "Cobra" (started Jul. 25) and ended up as a number of kampfgruppen. This wasn't a panzer division so wouldn't have had Panthers although elements of 2.SS.Panzer-Division were attached for a time.

1.SS.Panzer-Division "LSSAH" was engaged with the British as of June 28 to counter Operation "Epsom". on July 8 the British launched Operation "Charnwood" which managed to capture Caen. Between July 15 to 17 the division was pulled from the line and put into reserve. On July 18 the British lauched Operation "Goodwood" and the division was commited against this offensive which was called off July 20. The division continued to be engaged with British forces until it was withdrawn Aug. 5/6. It then participated in Operation "Luttich" (counterattack on Operation Cobra) between Aug. 7 and Aug. 10. Shortly thereafter the division was trapped in the Falaise pocket from which it fought its way out; however, the division was effectly destroyed in this action.

2.SS.panzer-Division "Das Reich". Due to a lack of motor vehicles the division was moved piecemeal into Normandy and broken into many pieces which were then attached to other formations. Elements of the division went into action against the British starting June 27. On July 3 the Americans launched a powerful attack northwest of St. Lo. On July 4 elements of the divison were consolidated into two main kampfgruppen. Kpf.Gr "Weidinger" was attached to 353.Inf.Div and went into action July 6. Kpf.Gr "Wisliceny" was attached to 17.SS.Panzergrenadier-Division and saw combat northwest of St. Lo. From July 11-23 Kpf.Gr "Wisliceny" (from July 20 Kpf.Gr "Borsow") was attached to Pz.Lehr-Diviison. On July 25 the Americans launched Operation "Cobra" and the division was encircled near Coutances (southwest of St. Lo) on July 28. The division along with others managed to fight its way out. The division then participated in Operation "Luttich" (counterattack on Operation Cobra)between Aug. 7 and Aug. 10. The division managed to avoid encirclement in the Falaise pocket. On Aug. 20 and 21 the division took part in a relief attempt to free those units trapped in the Falaise pocket and succeeded in opening the encirclement and allowing many of the trapped units to escape.

9.SS.Panzer-Division "Hohenstaufen" first went into action against the British on June 29. The division continued to be engaged with the British and Canadians until July 20 when it was pulled out of action and put in reserve. On July 25 the British launch Operation "Spring" south of Caen and the divsion was immediately commited and the frontline was stabilized the next day. On July 30 the British launched Operation Bluecoat southeast of St. Lo and the division assisted in containing the advance in this area. The division managed to avoid encirclement in the Falaise pocket. On Aug. 20 and 21 the division took part in a relief attempt to free those units trapped in the Falaise pocket and succeeded in opening the encirclement and allowing many of the trapped units to escape.

10.SS.Panzer-Division "Frundsberg" first went into action against the British on June 29. The division was involved in heavy defensive fighting throughout July. On July 30 the British launched Operation "Bluecoat" southeast of St. Lo and the division assisted in containing the advance in this area. On Aug. 6/7 the division was pull from the line to prepare it to take part in in Operation "Luttich" (counterattack on Operation Cobra). The division didn't take part in that offensive and on Aug. 8 it's advance elements were committed in an attempt to stop the American advance. Shortly thereafter the division was trapped in the Falaise pocket from which it fought its way out; however, the division was effectly destroyed in this action.

12.SS.Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend" went into action against the British and Canadians on June 7. and halted them by June 18. On June 25 the British launched Operation "Epsom" and the division was the core of the German defense in this area. The offensive was halted by June 28. On July 4/5 the Canadians lauched Operation "Windsor" and on July 8 the British launched Operation "Charnwood" which managed to capture Caen. On July 11 the division was pulled from the line for short term reconstitution. On July 18 the British lauched Operation "Goodwood" and the division was commited against this offensive which was called off July 20. Elements of the division took part in the defense against Operation "Bluecoat" and assisted in halting the advance in this area. On Aug. 7/8 the British launched Operation "Totalize". The division resisted strongly and by Aug. 11 the operation was suspended. On Aug. 14 the British mounted a direct attack on Falaise (Operation "Tractable") and the division was gradually pushed south. Shortly thereafter the division was trapped in the Falaise pocket from which it fought its way out; however, the division was effectly destroyed in this action.


Based on this I think it's realistic to have SS units engaged with American units any time after June 11 and SS Panzer units any time after July 6. If you consider the Falaise encirclement as the end of the Normandy campaign then most of July and a good portion of August appears to include plausible engagements between Americans and SS Panzer units.

Frank

 

[Mister Dave]

Wow, thanks for sharing the results of your research Frank. I would really like to get the panther and some of the WS figure sets before they disappear. This is very helpful info. Thanks again.

MD

 

[OzDigger]

Frank, thanks for the info. Can you provide a short list of the references you used?

 

[SPICK0001]

Anyone wishing to see a good movie based on the Battle of the Hurtgen Forest check out "When Trumpets Fade". An excellent WW2 movie that not many people have heard about.