November 11, 1918 - the final deaths of WWI (1 Viewer)

[Combat]

I happened upon a History International Channel series last night hosted by Michael Palin called "Timewatch." This particular episode covered the last day of WWI. A sad and disgraceful tale regarding the attacks that were ordered up to the final minute of the armistice resulting in 11,000 allied casualties including 3,000 Americans on the final day. More than on D-Day! All unnecessary as they knew the ceasefire would occur at 11. A book was mentioned which looks interesting:

Eleventh Month, Eleventh Day, Eleventh Hour: Armistice Day, 1918: World War I and Its Violent Climax by Joseph E. Persico

 

[Mitch]

I saw that a few months back it was a very good documentary done, in a very good way thanks to Palin who played a great part in the way it was made. It startlingly showed very few allied commanders in a good light especially, some of the US officers.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Yes I saw this too. Those three thousand US casualties were for the sake of getting into a town and getting a Hot bath just hours before they could walk in and get them. Really beggars belief, it seemed to be a final underlining of the stupidity and futility that made WW1 even worse than it had to be.

Great docu but very sad too.

Rob

 

[Combat]

Inexplicable why they would order these attacks and how they got the men to carry them out in the final hours or even minutes before the armistice. The Germans even tried to wave off the Americans from charging their machine guns. From what I gather, the Americans conducted an investigation after the war but nothing came of it. Pershing was unrepentant wanting even to push on to Berlin. At best incompetence and at worst a criminal act. The French even backdated the tombstones of those who died on the 11th.

 

[Mitch]

I suppose playing devils advocate we are with that great thing hindsight looking back at a different era with vastly differing outlooks etc and, judging them by our modern standards. but, even when I was watching it could not fathom the mentality of some of the officers motivation especially the baths issue. Rather be dirty and alive but, a very good documentary
Mitch

 

[Currahee Chris]

Rather be dirty and alive but, a very good documentary
Mitch

I dunno- you'd be surprised at what exhaustion can force a man to do- field grime is no joke. In truth, there could have been some legitimate reasons to risk an attack- regarding the baths. Perhaps the leaders were concerned over an outbreak of disease- might be surprised how often that occurred back then.

Barring any of that, it was a tragedy wholesale and outright. I have read that Pershing wanted to show the Hun that he was throughly defeated and wanted to maintain a fighting stance till the end- perhaps if he had his way, Nazi Germany wouldn't have rose up from the ashes- who knows??

 

[Combat]

There is a mention in the book blurb that some officers viewed this as the last opportunity for glory and promotion of their careers.

 

[Mitch]

I think it seems a combination of glory, promotion and getting it, before the end of the war and, in pershings case it does seem he certainly wanted germany written off the map.

I think concern for mens health and cleanliness seemed to be quite low on the list of priorities on 11 november.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

I imagine it's hard enough to lose a son , father or brother in War as it is, but can you imagine the horror, grief and rage to learn your loved one was a) killed on the final day of at that point the worst War in History and b) killed in an attempt to get a bath, it must have been very hard to take and I imagine there were many families who would have liked to see Pershing strung up.

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

.... b) killed in an attempt to get a bath, it must have been very hard to take and I imagine there were many families who would have liked to see Pershing strung up.

Rob

No doubt in my military mind that nugget of truth wasn't revealed till later on. Not sure how they would have reacted to Pershing though- he was wildly popular. Pershing lost a son and wife in a terrible fire (if memory serves). I never felt this was something he did intentionally. Again, we are running the risk of looking at this with a century of lessons learned. General officers have to make the most difficult decisions imaginable- some do it brilliantly, some not so. I feel Pershings' heart was in the right place, I just thing, as Combat alluded to, there were some individuals who were over zealous.

 

[Louis Badolato]

The whole First World War was basically is pissing match between Queen Victoria's grandchildren, so I find all the casualties suffered throughout the war to be disgraceful. That being said, the lives lost on the last day were simply criminal. Every officer who ordered an attack was simply committing murder. The only rationale for continuing to attack at that time was a desire for glory and career advancement. I find the officers responsible, American, British, French, whatever, to be beneath contempt.

 

[Terp152]

There were a few brigade commanders who questioned their orders, not many. I think there was some investigation in Congress of the subject but I don't know what happened with that. Not much I would guess.

 

[Rob]

The whole First World War was basically is pissing match between Queen Victoria's grandchildren, so I find all the casualties suffered throughout the war to be disgraceful. That being said, the lives lost on the last day were simply criminal. Every officer who ordered an attack was simply committing murder. The only rationale for continuing to attack at that time was a desire for glory and career advancement. I find the officers responsible, American, British, French, whatever, to be beneath contempt.

Got to agree with this, absolutely criminal. Every officer responsible for attacking on that day had the chance to save the lives of his men, the terrible, terrible War was finally over and there was simply no excuse.

Death sentence for those concerned would not be over the top in my view, in those final hours any attack was pointless, premeditated murder.

Rob

 

[lancer]

Saw it as well and thought it was excellent. I was stunned by the various actions that took place. What an incredible waste of life. Hours from cease-fire and these attacks go in. The US general who ordered the attack for hot baths should have been court-martialed. What a disgrace. -- Al

 

[jazzeum]

Those officers all the way up to Pershing should have been tried and executed. Up until the recent time, you have to wonder how many officers gave a crap about their soldiers.

 

[theBaron]

Why not go back further, and shoot the men responsible for starting the war in the first place. And no, I don't mean just the Kaiser, the Czar and Franz Josef. Grey, Sazanov and before him, Izvolski, Poincare and Clemenceau, Berchtold, were all responsible for blundering into an unnecessary war, and into a peace that led us all into a necessary war.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Mitch]

Thing is what charges would those who want them tried and executed (though thats presuming guilt before the trial process) they could not be tried for murder not any definition of it I have come across so what??

Its galling so many died for such trivial reasons but, where do we draw the line? we would need to go right back through the four years of war and review every decision and put before the courts those deemed to be murderes, negligent etc.

There were so many decisions taken that were poor in hindsight but, its not the first battle nor will it be the last where incompetance ruled the day how could you and this was the problem of culpability at the time proving liability was almost impossible.

Criminal acts like murder etc linked with armed personal are very tricky and emotive subjects as anyone who knows of R V Clegg (a para accused of murder in Northern Ireland) in the UK can see.

Its easy to say we would have done different especially, if we have not served but, times were very different in 1918 to now and all the ethics involved in warfare are completely different.

Terrible day and sad all those deaths but, in reality its only the day that makes these any more wastefull than the millions of others in this Great War
Mitch

 

[jazzeum]

There's a big difference between negligence in command decisions (sometimes things don't work out as planned or an order is not carried through properly). However, there is a big difference between that and ordering men into battle when you know the cease fire is only hours away. That's bloody criminal.

 

[Rob]

Yes, whilst I understand the point Mitch is making about all the wasted lives in that War, this is unforgivable. On that final day, with just a few hours to go, it was murder in my view. Now as Mitch said, I don't know what they would have been charged with, but I guess we are just saying they deserved execution for such wilful waste of human life.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

jazzeum...

I don't know if it is criminal in its true sense it may be morally reprehensible and outrage people but, until 11am war was still very much ''on'' in the minds of many.

I think thats why very few inquiries etc were able to come up with any alternative thought or, bring any action in the many cases on the last day of war.

For me, in the legal sense, I am always concerned when charges are brought against troops or, calls for there to be.
Mitch