Osama Bin Laden Killed By U.S. Bomb In Pakistan (3 Viewers)

[damian]

I have had the dubious pleasure of spending my formative years in the midst to two guerilla wars. Propaganda, bombs in shopping centers, urban unrest, counter insurgency operations, elite special forces (The world's best according to the propagandists at the time) conscription all the standard accoutrements etc. Both times the only end was some sort of political solution. In one of those places the political solution came to late to prevent a pretty miserable outcome which is still a problem 30 years later and in the second a less Anglo Saxon concept of victory allowed a pretty successful transfer of power (all things considered). Now I am not offering any advice ( as Paulo says what do I know) but I would just like to echo the opinion that a military solution alone is often very difficult to achieve and may be extremely elusive.

 

[Rutledge]

I have had the dubious pleasure of spending my formative years in the midst to two guerilla wars. Propaganda, bombs in shopping centers, urban unrest, counter insurgency operations, elite special forces (The world's best according to the propagandists at the time) conscription all the standard accoutrements etc. Both times the only end was some sort of political solution. In one of those places the political solution came to late to prevent a pretty miserable outcome which is still a problem 30 years later and in the second a less Anglo Saxon concept of victory allowed a pretty successful transfer of power (all things considered). Now I am not offering any advice ( as Paulo says what do I know) but I would just like to echo the opinion that a military solution alone is often very difficult to achieve and may be extremely elusive.

True enough (the bold). If you were to ask just about anyone in the US military, they will echo your sentiments 100%. Thus why they/we are, quite literally, building bridges, roads, airports, telecomm, all kinds of infrastructure. These activities, along with numerous community outreach programs, are attempting to establish a bond between our two nations while (re?)creating an atmosophere of healthy economic growth and propserity aside from poppy seed growing and bomb making. The idea being that if you take the desperation element away from the population, the terrorists will have many fewer recruits.

Surely you have heard the phrase "winning hearts and minds". We are fully aware in recognizing the limits of military muscle. However, that does not mean we intend on ever cow-towing to the bad guys, or would not pursue criminals because "we cant win".

Its very much a dual effort. On the one hand going after the bad guys, aggressively. On the other, trying to establish a new order that is self-sustaining and will eventually help Afghanistan and Iraq become productive nations of the world. Its a much more complex effort than just "kill 'em", its just that paving roads or building cell towers is not very interesting news and so is rarely reported.

 

[damian]

True enough (the bold). If you were to ask just about anyone in the US military, they will echo your sentiments 100%. Thus why they/we are, quite literally, building bridges, roads, airports, telecomm, all kinds of infrastructure. These activities, along with numerous community outreach programs, are attempting to establish a bond between our two nations while (re?)creating an atmosophere of healthy economic growth and propserity aside from poppy seed growing and bomb making. The idea being that if you take the desperation element away from the population, the terrorists will have many fewer recruits.

Surely you have heard the phrase "winning hearts and minds". We are fully aware in recognizing the limits of military muscle. However, that does not mean we intend on ever cow-towing to the bad guys, or would not pursue criminals because "we cant win".

Its very much a dual effort. On the one hand going after the bad guys, aggressively. On the other, trying to establish a new order that is self-sustaining and will eventually help Afghanistan and Iraq become productive nations of the world. Its a much more complex effort than just "kill 'em", its just that paving roads or building cell towers is not very interesting news and so is rarely reported.

All I am saying it is difficult.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Right. So let's not go there either. Christianity was spread by the sword and colonialism. What's scarey was that recently the Rwandan genocide was a Christian on Christian fight. My wife went to see a talk by one of the people who saw apparitions of Mary at Međugorje in Bosnia but she didn't know that Međugorje was center of ethic cleansing in the 90s. I mention religion because Communism expansion was the obvious and expected fanaticism or our time.

I'm not exactly sure what your point is in this post. When you say "let's not go there" where exactly are we refraining from going? Are we not supposed to be as fanatic ourselves (I certainly agree with that) or are we not supposed to condemn their philosophy the way we condemned the Nazi philosophy because theirs is cloaked in the guise of a religion (which I would totally disagree with).

As far as your reference to Christianity and Communism, my post condemned "all fanaticism". I have no more use for a Christian fanatic, like the bishop who, in ordering the massacre of the Albergencian sect in Northern Spain as heretics, coined the phrase "kill them all, god will know his own" - paraphrased in our own time to "kill then all, let god sort them out" - then I do for a muslim one, a communist one, or a Jewish one.

Like any other "ism" or "anity" catholicism or christianity can be warped by fanatics or opportunists into an excuse for violence or conquest. Religion isn't just the opiate of the masses, all to often it is the crack cocaine that encourages an entire subculture of violence. All you need is a poor and/or uneducated population, dire financial circumstances, and a charismatic leader with a message that the dire circumstances are the fault of some "other" or "different" tribe, religion, nationality, philosophy or group, and all hell can break lose.

I don't claim to be an expert on anything (not even the law - I'm no expert on what the law is, I'm just willing to look it up for a reasonable hourly rate) but in my opinion (uneducated as it may be) the British in Malasia came up with the blueprint for defeating a fanatical terrorist group. As Kevin, Clive and Simon explained it to me when they educated me on the subject, the British commander made the British services invaluable to the locals, providing them with excellent medical care, agricultural assistance, education, etc., so the local populace both wanted and needed the British to stay. The British commander combined this with surgical special forces strikes against the terrorist forces which (1) minimized collateral damage to the locals, (2) terrorized the terrorists themselves and (3) left the terrorists without a large conventional force in the field against which to employ guerilla tactics. This left the communist terrorists with only the local populace and infrastructure to attack, thereby making the locals hate the terrorists and pushing the locals more into the British camp. Soon the locals were informing on the terrorists to the British, and the communist terrorists were out of business.

 

[Mitch]

perhaps the US should have adopted the last paragraph when they took over Iraq and afghanistan. we did in our areas donning berets instead of hard hats and mixing with the civillians in Basra. Its not rocket science that if you wish to regime change which, is what is trying to be done then you have to give a real big carrot to the locals who will then think... Its much better without saddam or the taliban and, will then wish to keep this new prosperity and inform on where the nutters are and the insurgents.

The troops will be in these countries until political or public will means that whatever tenuous position the countries are in we will leave their own security forces in charge. As soon as troops leave afghanistan the Taliban will come back. Thats why we should be letting them sit at the table and negotiate their countries own future and until we do more will die.

The only trusim is that its a mess
Mitch

 

[fmethorst]

People are interesting. If the decision had been made to bomb the compound rather than raid it there wouldn't be any debate about whether bin Laden should have been arrested. When a decision is made to attack enemy combatants from the air (bombs, missiles etc.) that is a decision to attempt to kill those people. Our forces make these decisions on a regular basis in the ongoing fight against the international jihadis. How is it possible to accept air attack as a tactic, particularly with its inate inaccuracy and higher probability for civilian casualties, yet question a special forces kill? The latest iteration of the international jihadi movement featured bin Laden as a key figure. He chose to make war on us and it got him killed, good riddance.

As to whether this will end the threat, of course not. al-Qaeda, the Taliban etc. are new names to an ongoing problem that has existed for some time (Google Hindustani Fanatics). The problem has waxed and waned at various times dependant on the personalities involved. It is international and encompasses far more than Afghanistan and Iraq. For instance, Russia has been fighting Islamists in the Caucasus since they usurped various independence movements. Lets not forget Beslan, the Moscow theatre attack, Black Widows, airline bombings and other brainchilds of the likes of Shamil Basayev. Eliminating people like this (Basayev was killed in 2006) doesn't solve the problem (as has already been noted, the solution will have to be a political one) but it does help suppress it. While suppressing a threat is obviously not as good as eliminating it I think it makes sense to do so until such time as the issue is resolved or until it wanes to dormancy again.

 

[Gideon]

If the objective is nation building in the Middle East, I am afraid failure is just around the corner when it comes to Iraq and Afghanistan. Different cultures and civilizations, different history, you just don't change that to Western style democracies with gun power, IMHO. The Japan example is a good one though, but those were different circunstances, times and different people.
All IMHO of course, what do I know^&grin?

Paulo

I think we are sold a bill of goods, if you will, that says that the people we are "liberating" want the kinds of freedoms we enjoy here, our style government, our type of life and I think that's one of the many places where we and many other powers throughout history make dire mistakes.

and we'll never truly win against terrorism. it's something ever present in every society. there will always be a fringe element. lots of people can't seem to think before 9-11 in regards to terrorism in our country and the multi-cultural faces and different issues attacks were based on.

but its not something which will topple our government. at most, it becomes a very expensive problem to be dealt with along with thousands of lives lost as a result. what is most important, in my opinion, is that we don't lose our freedoms and lifestyle as a result of attacks. we shouldn't attack a culture, religion or ethnicity due to the actions of a few.

"Power in defense of freedom is greater than power in behalf of tyranny and oppression." Malcolm X

 

[Scott]

..........................
but its not something which will topple our government. at most, it becomes a very expensive problem to be dealt with along with thousands of lives lost as a result. what is most important, in my opinion, is that we don't lose our freedoms and lifestyle as a result of attacks. ..................

The slogans "They hate us for our freedom", "You are with us or with them", "Troop hater" popped up very soon after 9/11 in the US. The patriotism of one segment of the country was questioned over other sections. There is a phenomenon where if one can't get directly at an enemy, an "enemy" close at hand is demonized.

But hey.....you folks are history buffs....

 

[Currahee Chris]

People are interesting. If the decision had been made to bomb the compound rather than raid it there wouldn't be any debate about whether bin Laden should have been arrested.

You give people too much credit my friend.

After reading the nonsense on this thread, I thank God more and more that I will never be more than a stupid F'ing grunt as it seems it would take several of you at a minimum, 30 minutes to figure out which pair of underwear you were going to put on in the morning.

Thank God there are people in this world who take action over rationalization. If it were the other way around, I don't think we'd ever have worked out that a wheel works better if it's round instead of square.

@Rutledge- great posts, sorry your in this fight on your own. I'm done with this nonsense and you should do the same as me- sit back, enjoy this for what it is and support the men and women as we keep cleaning house. The self-castration of the nation I love, the nation some of my friends died to defend, is just pitiful.

 

[Currahee Chris]

Maybe it's just my Southern upbringing. But it seems to me that it would be common courtesy not to be constantly haranguing christianity on a site run by a pastor and his wife. And I am by no means a religious person.

It's not your Southern upbringing- it's called class and the guy has none, clearly as you say, and I know others out there like you, who aren't "religious" but can somehow refrain without making Chickens--t posts all the time whenever someone mentions religion. Guess the guy has nothing else better to do.....than make anti-religious statements......on a forum hosted by a Pastor and his wife.....while he is a guest.......where the entire spectrum of the forum is about men playing with toy soldiers...... go figure.

 

[Scott]

You give people too much credit my friend.

After reading the nonsense on this thread, I thank God more and more that I will never be more than a stupid F'ing grunt as it seems it would take several of you at a minimum, 30 minutes to figure out which pair of underwear you were going to put on in the morning.

Thank God there are people in this world who take action over rationalization. If it were the other way around, I don't think we'd ever have worked out that a wheel works better if it's round instead of square.

@Rutledge- great posts, sorry your in this fight on your own. I'm done with this nonsense and you should do the same as me- sit back, enjoy this for what it is and support the men and women as we keep cleaning house. The self-castration of the nation I love, the nation some of my friends died to defend, is just pitiful.

Sounds like the adage about "when all you have is a hammer......." I haven't read any "surrender monkey" posts, just ideas about doing things smarter.

I've never once felt "wimpy" as an American or that American is wimpy, although embarrassment has happened.