Overlooked: German contributions at Quatre Bras and Waterloo (1 Viewer)

[maloyalo]

I start with the assertation that the German troops in Wellington's army have not recieved recognition in English publications, commensurate with the part they played in the the Battles of the Waterloo Campaign. They do recieve spotty praise here and there, and some episodes are recounted, but the totality of their contributions to the victory are missed, or put another way, the sum of the parts does not equal the whole. The void is filled, by default, by giving more credit to the British troops then they actually deserve.

The German troops roughly equaled the British in Wellington's army. Each making up about a third of the army. Their performance was critical. Had they conducted themselves more like the Dutch-Belgian contingent, Wellington is unlikely to have won at Waterloo. To win, they needed to fight closer in quality to the British troops, although with no greater experience (perhaps less) then the Dutch-Belgian troops.

The British could be expected to do their duty. The Dutch-Belgians were of known doubtful quality (Mainly due to political and nationalistic conflicts) and mostly used in secondary/supporting roles. The German troops were often put in hazard equal to the British, and in some respects it was their performance that was the critical element of success, for it was far from known or certain.

 

[OzDigger]

You are no doubt correct. Recorded history is usually skewed by the author to reflect his opinion and the audience he wants to appeal to. I read that in a book somewhere

 

[maloyalo]

Yes, that bias is natural to an extent... but perhaps historical scholarship in more recent times is more interested in revealing the truth, so far as it is possible. At least I hope so.

History is full then, of unheard voices & even a much gone over Battle like Waterloo still, to this day I believe has not had a trully satisfactory work done on it in English. The Duke himself of course said it could not be done, flat out.

But I think it is always possible to get a little closer. I don't think much in the way of battlefield excavation/forensic studies have been done. I know there are still mass graves under the fields. I saw a sinkhole once accross the street from Le Haye Saint, maybe in what was the old sandpit. It revealed a mass of human bones. Probably a settling finally occurred.

 

[OzDigger]

Yes, that bias is natural to an extent... but perhaps historical scholarship in more recent times is more interested in revealing the truth, so far as it is possible. At least I hope so.

History is full then, of unheard voices & even a much gone over Battle like Waterloo still, to this day I believe has not had a trully satisfactory work done on it in English. The Duke himself of course said it could not be done, flat out.

But I think it is always possible to get a little closer. I don't think much in the way of battlefield excavation/forensic studies have been done. I know there are still mass graves under the fields. I saw a sinkhole once accross the street from Le Haye Saint, maybe in what was the old sandpit. It revealed a mass of human bones. Probably a settling finally occurred.

I agree, but sadly there are many people that consider any subsequent modifications to be "revisionism" rather than "the truth". Perhaps they have never considered that what they have become to believe to be "the truth" was largely based on morale boosting "propaganda" at the time.

 

[trooper]

I start with the assertation that the German troops in Wellington's army have not recieved recognition in English publications, commensurate with the part they played in the the Battles of the Waterloo Campaign. They do recieve spotty praise here and there, and some episodes are recounted, but the totality of their contributions to the victory are missed, or put another way, the sum of the parts does not equal the whole. The void is filled, by default, by giving more credit to the British troops then they actually deserve.

The German troops roughly equaled the British in Wellington's army. Each making up about a third of the army. Their performance was critical. Had they conducted themselves more like the Dutch-Belgian contingent, Wellington is unlikely to have won at Waterloo. To win, they needed to fight closer in quality to the British troops, although with no greater experience (perhaps less) then the Dutch-Belgian troops.

The British could be expected to do their duty. The Dutch-Belgians were of known doubtful quality (Mainly due to political and nationalistic conflicts) and mostly used in secondary/supporting roles. The German troops were often put in hazard equal to the British, and in some respects it was their performance that was the critical element of success, for it was far from known or certain.

Your assertation is incorrect as you will find if you read "1815 The Waterloo Campaign Vol1 (Wellington. his German Allies and the Battles of Ligny and Quatre Bras)" and "1815 The Waterloo Campaign Vol 2 (The German Victory from Waterloo to the fall of Napoleon)" both by Peter Hofschroer and published by Greenhill Books. Do, however, remember that although Blucher was marching to the relief of Wellington the British and their allies fought the battle throughout the day and his troops only arrived during the final phase. Therefore they cannot be considered in respect of the main events of the day although their final pursuit of the French was critical and was most likely impossible for the British to undertake given the battering they had sustained.

 

[OzDigger]

Your assertation is incorrect as you will find if you read "1815 The Waterloo Campaign Vol1 (Wellington. his German Allies and the Battles of Ligny and Quatre Bras)" and "1815 The Waterloo Campaign Vol 2 (The German Victory from Waterloo to the fall of Napoleon)" both by Peter Hofschroer and published by Greenhill Books. Do, however, remember that although Blucher was marching to the relief of Wellington the British and their allies fought the battle throughout the day and his troops only arrived during the final phase. Therefore they cannot be considered in respect of the main events of the day although their final pursuit of the French was critical and was most likely impossible for the British to undertake given the battering they had sustained.

I feel his assertation is correct considering the vast amount of volumes on Waterloo that give the Germans scant regard.

Here's a link to some comments made by Peter Hofschroer: http://www.napolun.com/mirror/web2.airmail.net/napoleon/Waterloo_myths_2.html

My understanding is that the Allies were losing Waterloo before Blucher and his Prussians arrived on the scene. In anycase the Prussians made a real difference in the early stages of Waterloo by keeping a good portion of Napoleon's forces occupied elsewhere.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I think there is a bit of confusion here over the original assertion re: "Germans."

I believe what was being stated was the contribution of Germans within Wellington's ranks was largely overlooked. I don't think this was an issue over the Prussian main body, though I suppose both might be disputed.

In any case, there are a couple of good reference recommendations here. I would also add William Siborne's History of the Waterloo Campaign. I don't think this could be considered revisionist as it was published in 1848, after being compiled through the many interviews and correspondences that Siborne conducted during his building of the Waterloo diorama (1830-1837). During that time, he consulted heavily (and with the disapproval of Wellington) with German officers and indeed the Prussian War Ministry. I believe that Siborne could have been no more objective in his detailed assertions regarding the battles, given the contentious issue that gained him notoriety with Wellington when Wellington demanded that thousands of Prussian troops be removed from the original Waterloo model that Siborne had constructed in exacting detail from a broad cross-section of eye-witness accounts from all sides of the conflict. (Pardon that very long and confusing sentence, but I did write it in one breath.)

In any case, with that said, within Wellington's own ranks, I hardly think the KGL is overlooked...Hanoverians maybe...but can you name any significant contribution of theirs during the three day conflict? Not to say that they made no contribution, but there are many British units that are often overlooked as well. Because the synthesis of the 3 battles is so complex, generally they are distilled to the most characteristic points of each conflict. It is the only way it can be easily digested.

Someone stated in this thread that it was not recognized that the Germans within Wellington's ranks would fight with the same level of determination and experience as the British troops...but remember that many of Wellington's British troops were raw and untried, much of the Peninsula Army already disbanded or redirected to the America. There was much concern amongst the British staff that some British lines would not stand, having had no combat experience. It is for this reason that Wellington combined some units with seasoned battalions present.

Final note: I know this observation has little to do with the contributions of German troops during the Waterloo campaign, but I have read over and over again that many of the German troops serving in the British Army (at least in the earlier years of the war) were considered among the finest marksmen compared to those in any army during the Napoleonic conflicts.

 

[trooper]

My understanding is that the Allies were losing Waterloo before Blucher and his Prussians arrived on the scene. In anycase the Prussians made a real difference in the early stages of Waterloo by keeping a good portion of Napoleon's forces occupied elsewhere.

I think you will find that Napoleon and Ney had thrown everything at the Allied line to no avail. Knowing that the Prussians were approaching Napoleon threw his reserve, the Old Guard, into the fray hoping that this would shatter the British and allow him to then turn on the Prussians and, with Grouchy coming up on their rear, defeat them in their turn. Unfortunately for him the Guard was shot to pieces and ran. The rest of the army seeing their elite beaten, and with the rapid advance of the Prussians on the flank joined in and completed the rout. Yes, the British were exhausted and couldn't continue the pursuit, and yes Grouchy and one third of the French were engaged in the Prussian pursuit but the Allies certainly weren't losing although, as the Duke said, "It was a close run thing."

 

[maloyalo]

Yes, some confusion over who I mean by the Germans. I did not mean the Prussians, but the Germans in Wellington's army. They were the Hanoverian Army, the KGL (Hanoverians), the Nassau Contingent, and Nassau Regt serving in Dutch-Belgian Army, The Brunswickers.

Some of their contributions at Waterloo:

- Defending Le haye Saint (KGL & Hanoverian Light Inf)

- Held the Right Center (Kielmansegge's Hanoverian & Omteda's KGL Brigades)

- Reinforced the Right Center at the real crisis (Brunswick and Nassau)

- Assisted in defense of Hougemount (Nassau, Hanoverian Light Inf, KGL)

- Anchored the Left Flank and defended Papolette, etc. (Nassau)

- Held far left of line (Vinke's & Best's Hanoverian Brigades)

- Held portion of right against Cavalry (Brunswick)

Thanks for the link Oz. I have read a bit of Hofschroer (smaller works), but wasn't aware of the main books he wrote. Perhaps he goes too far in his pendulum swing, to make the correction ? Have to catch it just right as it passes thru center again.

 

[trooper]

Yes, some confusion over who I mean by the Germans. I did not mean the Prussians, but the Germans in Wellington's army. They were the Hanoverian Army, the KGL (Hanoverians), the Nassau Contingent, and Nassau Regt serving in Dutch-Belgian Army, The Brunswickers.

Some of their contributions at Waterloo:

- Defending Le haye Saint (KGL & Hanoverian Light Inf)

- Held the Right Center (Kielmansegge's Hanoverian & Omteda's KGL Brigades)

- Reinforced the Right Center at the real crisis (Brunswick and Nassau)

- Assisted in defense of Hougemount (Nassau, Hanoverian Light Inf, KGL)

- Anchored the Left Flank and defended Papolette, etc. (Nassau)

- Held far left of line (Vinke's & Best's Hanoverian Brigades)

- Held portion of right against Cavalry (Brunswick)

Thanks for the link Oz. I have read a bit of Hofschroer (smaller works), but wasn't aware of the main books he wrote. Perhaps he goes too far in his pendulum swing, to make the correction ? Have to catch it just right as it passes thru center again.

All of the above troops have had Osprey Men at Arms books devoted to them.

 

[maloyalo]

All of the above troops have had Osprey Men at Arms books devoted to them.

Yes, about their uniforms.

There is a bit on campaigns & such, but its piece-meal, as were the various contingents of german troops spread through-out the army.

But pick up a book on Waterloo, and see who gets most of the print and credit ?

The basic reasoning for it has already been mentioned by others above. And I would add, that as an English General commanded the army, so have of course English writers focused on their own perspective and as-it-where commanded the history that has been brought down to us. It is almost as if they have divided and conquered the german share of credit, though I would not say this is purposely done by most historians.

In the right center, where a large ammount of the key parts of the battle where played out, the germans of Kielmansegge's and Ompteda's brigades stood firm. The other german troops brought in at the crisis, the Brunswickers & Nassauers partially recoiled, but so did part of the only British infantry in the area, Halketts Brigade (repeating it's performance at Quatre Bras).

 

[Rob]

I think you will find that Napoleon and Ney had thrown everything at the Allied line to no avail. Knowing that the Prussians were approaching Napoleon threw his reserve, the Old Guard, into the fray hoping that this would shatter the British and allow him to then turn on the Prussians and, with Grouchy coming up on their rear, defeat them in their turn. Unfortunately for him the Guard was shot to pieces and ran. The rest of the army seeing their elite beaten, and with the rapid advance of the Prussians on the flank joined in and completed the rout. Yes, the British were exhausted and couldn't continue the pursuit, and yes Grouchy and one third of the French were engaged in the Prussian pursuit but the Allies certainly weren't losing although, as the Duke said, "It was a close run thing."

I always understood it was Maitlands foot guards destruction of Napoleons guard by volley fire that was the turning point at Waterloo, a feat for which they were awarded the title Grenadier guards if I'm not mistaken.On seeing the remaining guards fleeing Wellington waved a general advance. As Napoleons idea was to send in his guard to finish the British,knowing the Germans may appear at any moment. it would appear the destruction of said guard was indeed the tipping point. Some 1,500 men in volley fire must have been some sight and a devastating effect on the advancing French,

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Its everything that I have read and researched on this battle and, although everyone contributed to the victory in part its fundamentally, what Rob stated that brought victory.

I may be being over sensitive but, is this bash a brit history month?? I enjoy a debate but, one cannot get away from the facts written by the majority of Historians. What next, Admiral Donitz saved us from the Armarda???
Mitch

I always understood it was Maitlands foot guards destruction of Napoleons guard by volley fire that was the turning point at Waterloo, a feat for which they were awarded the title Grenadier guards if I'm not mistaken.On seeing the remaining guards fleeing Wellington waved a general advance. As Napoleons idea was to send in his guard to finish the British,knowing the Germans may appear at any moment. it would appear the destruction of said guard was indeed the tipping point. Some 1,500 men in volley fire must have been some sight and a devastating effect on the advancing French,

Rob

 

[maloyalo]

I always understood it was Maitlands foot guards destruction of Napoleons guard by volley fire that was the turning point at Waterloo, a feat for which they were awarded the title Grenadier guards if I'm not mistaken.On seeing the remaining guards fleeing Wellington waved a general advance. As Napoleons idea was to send in his guard to finish the British,knowing the Germans may appear at any moment. it would appear the destruction of said guard was indeed the tipping point. Some 1,500 men in volley fire must have been some sight and a devastating effect on the advancing French,

Rob

The attack of the Imperial Guard was more a tragic epilogue then the real crisis or 'tipping point'. It was under-powered and had virtually no chance of success.

If anything, the retreat of the Imperial Guard was just the signal for the retreat/route to begin, but I am not even sure of that. The collaspe of Durette's French divison holding open the angle where Wellington's and Blucher's army met, was actually more materially disasterous and occurred fairly close in time to the repulse of the French Guard.

The true crisis of the battle occurred in the right center after Le Haye Saint fell. The french assault was thrown back and the battle line stabilized, by a joint group of British, German, and perhaps Dutch-belgian forces. The german troops were most numerous of this group.

 

[Rob]

Its everything that I have read and researched on this battle and, although everyone contributed to the victory in part its fundamentally, what Rob stated that brought victory.

I may be being over sensitive but, is this bash a brit history month?? I enjoy a debate but, one cannot get away from the facts written by the majority of Historians. What next, Admiral Donitz saved us from the Armarda???
Mitch

No doubting the German effort helped decide the Battle,but with the British squares seeing off Ney's repeated attacks,Charge of the Scots Greys, British Artillery day long efforts and Maitlands Guards decisive action,I don't honestly think we can say The Germans did more than the Brits that day (not being Parochial Oz),there are limits.

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

I always understood it was Maitlands foot guards destruction of Napoleons guard by volley fire that was the turning point at Waterloo, a feat for which they were awarded the title Grenadier guards if I'm not mistaken.On seeing the remaining guards fleeing Wellington waved a general advance. As Napoleons idea was to send in his guard to finish the British,knowing the Germans may appear at any moment. it would appear the destruction of said guard was indeed the tipping point. Some 1,500 men in volley fire must have been some sight and a devastating effect on the advancing French,

Rob

That action was after the arrival of the Prussians, and I may add that Ney's ill fated cavalry charge also occured after the Prussians had arrived on the scene. Napoleon knew the Prussians would tip the balance and who could blame him for taking such risks late in the battle as his previous gambles had been winners for him, much like Hitler's, but that's another story. Btw guys, I do know the difference between Prussians and German of that time, just thought I would mention those pesky Prussians again. Why don't they get more recognition in the toy soldier world?

 

[maloyalo]

Its everything that I have read and researched on this battle and, although everyone contributed to the victory in part its fundamentally, what Rob stated that brought victory.

I may be being over sensitive but, is this bash a brit history month?? I enjoy a debate but, one cannot get away from the facts written by the majority of Historians. What next, Admiral Donitz saved us from the Armarda???
Mitch

Actually I just re-joined the party, after a long time gone, and did not know that the Brits had been taking a bashing.

But Brit bashing, or really any bashing is not my intent. I just like to find out the truth about things, whatever they turn out to be. I have praised the Brits at Waterloo, but in other threads a long time ago, for praise they deserve. My main interest here is to give the German troops the praise that they deserve. But specific credit is like matter in a way, and can neither be created or destroyed. So if its all taken, and I think the German troops deserve more, it has to come from somewhere. 'What do you expect me do do... manufacture some credit!'

 

[Rob]

Actually I just re-joined the party, after a long time gone, and did not know that the Brits had been taking a bashing.

But Brit bashing, or really any bashing is not my intent. I just like to find out the truth about things, whatever they turn out to be. I have praised the Brits at Waterloo, but in other threads a long time ago, for praise they deserve. My main interest here is to give the German troops the praise that they deserve. But specific credit is like matter in a way, and can neither be created or destroyed. So if its all taken, and I think the German troops deserve more, it has to come from somewhere. 'What do you expect me do do... manufacture some credit!'

I think perhaps the German troops have not had as much credit as they deserve because,rightly or wrongly, the more famous actions of that day were carried out by the Brits,it may be less well known but the German effort will always be remembered.

Rob

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I always understood it was Maitlands foot guards destruction of Napoleons guard by volley fire that was the turning point at Waterloo, a feat for which they were awarded the title Grenadier guards if I'm not mistaken.

Rob

Rob,

This is the legend, but contrary to fact it would seem. It was actually the 52nd light infantry that repelled what they thought were the Grenadier Guard (but were, in fact, the Guard Chasseurs).

 

[Rob]

Rob,

This is the legend, but contrary to fact it would seem. It was actually the 52nd light infantry that repelled what they thought were the Grenadier Guard (but were, in fact, the Guard Chasseurs).

Yes I read that too,but their seemed to be some ambiguity about it, so I use the term reserve 'Guard' in a generic way.

Rob