Pictures! (2 Viewers)

From my experiences (reading about the concentration camps, seeing hundreds of photographs, and touring two very disturbing sites) the diorama that is shown is not even remotely close to anything I have seen or read about in connection to the "ovens" used on our lost heros.
 
Hi Guys,

Re the recent speculation about the “factory ruin” photo we posted. I can assure everyone that it is certainly not a death camp crematorium!

Factories have chimneys...chimneys have furnaces...and sometimes they are numbered. As my friend Jazzeum says LAH is one thing...ruined concentration camp crematoria is quite another...

A factory ruin is simply...a factory ruin...no more and no less. Hope this helps sort out any confusion — best wishes and happy collecting!

Andy C. Neilson

P.S. Re “Zulu Wars” — Of course like most of you I love it...especially the “Zulu” movie but we’ve (K&C) already got a full plate of product for 2007 and Zulu War ain’t on it! However if, in the future, we ever did get back into it we would produce the figures in MATT finish...definitely not GLOSS.
 
Hi Guys,

Re the recent speculation about the “factory ruin” photo we posted. I can assure everyone that it is certainly not a death camp crematorium!

Factories have chimneys...chimneys have furnaces...and sometimes they are numbered. As my friend Jazzeum says LAH is one thing...ruined concentration camp crematoria is quite another...

A factory ruin is simply...a factory ruin...no more and no less. Hope this helps sort out any confusion —best wishes and happy collecting!

Andy C. Neilson

P.S. Re “Zulu Wars” — Of course like most of you I love it...especially the “Zulu” movie but we’ve (K&C) already got a full plate of product for 2007 and Zulu War ain’t on it! However if, in the future, we ever did get back into it we would produce the figures in MATT finish...definitely not GLOSS.
Hi Andy,

Thank you for your response and for the clarification of what you intend the building to be (ruined factory). However, perception is a very funny thing. If I and a few others looked at the building and saw a creatorium, then, for all practical purposes, that is what we conclude it to be. The fact that you communicate directly with us and let us know the building is a ruined factory alters our perception of the model. But what about the numerous collectors and guests of collectors who may not have the advantage of your direct communication? What will they see - a ruined factory, a crematorium, or something else?

My concern is not what you intend the model to be. Rather, my concern is what people will interprete the model to be. Perhaps adding some labeling on the building that indicates it is factory would help prevent people from incorrectly concluding the nature of the structure. I think this small detail might be quite important if you decide to produce and sell this model as an accessory or if you use this diorama to promote the sale of your great WW II figures and vehicles. If you decide not to produce and sell this model or not to present it in one of your stores , then, heck, it can be anything you want it to be! After all, it is yours to enjoy! ;)

Keep up the creative and gifted work you do! And,...Best wishes to you and yours for a Great Christmas and a Prosperous and Healthy New Year!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat
 
Andy C. Neilson

P.S. Re “Zulu Wars” — Of course like most of you I love it...especially the “Zulu” movie but we’ve (K&C) already got a full plate of product for 2007 and Zulu War ain’t on it! However if, in the future, we ever did get back into it we would produce the figures in MATT finish...definitely not GLOSS.

Well it's a start, the campaign has been noticed, now we have to work on changing the word "if" to "when". :) By the way, Andy, MATT finish will be just fine, thanks.:D

Fred
 
Hi Andy,

Thanks for the quick response on the 'subtle' query for the Zulu War line. I'll look forward to it as / if and when it's done.

I agree with Pat on the interpretation vs. intent. The idea behind the factory scene has met (quite rightly) with much enthusiasm from the members here, but would it be safer for Gordon to cast his creative wand over another piece which would look a little less like a concentration camp furnace?

Of course if this weren't intended as a production prototype, then this wouldn't be an issue. I suspect that the choice of figures plays a part in peoples initial interpretation. I didn't see it as an oven when the Russians were placed on the piece, but the second picture with the prisoner sets a different story.

Whichever, truely awesome piece, and as so many others have said, thanks for being so 'available' to collectors.

Have a good 'un.

Simon
 
Reality and perception are two different things. When an artist, such as a Picasso, paints, he may have one idea in mind of what the painting represents. However, how others may view it is quite different and that perception is open to interpretation. However, that is merely the opinion of the viewer and viewers can usually see anything where nothing exists.

In this case, the artist has called this a factory. If the viewer sees a camp, that is their interpretation.

However, laid on top of this is the assumption (and a correct assumption in my view) that no toy soldier manufacturer would ever make anything having to do with the Holacaust. Would any manufacturer make inmates being led to the ovens from the trains, huts with barbed wires surrounding holding inmates whose turn is soon to come, bodies being taken out of the gas chambers, guards and penal battalions picking out gold, silver and jewelry from their mouthes and other human orifices, and trucks then to take the bodies to the crematoriums?

The answer is obviously not and that is why any interpretation believing this to be a crematorium is not founded in any kind of logic.

As far as the supposition that it must be a crematorium because a prisoner is being led away, the camps were the province of the SS, not the Gestapo, and a prisoner would not be led away from the crematorium. For those who did not survive, it was straight from the trains to the chambers to the crematorium. Such a prisoner would have long died.
 
I don't think a concentration camp would ever be done, but just curious as to the specific basis of the objection. Is it that it could be perceived as trivializing the deaths and sufferings that occured? Or in bad taste? I assume people collect for many different reasons including reproducing historical events of which the holocaust is one. So I would be hard pressed to object to the production of any historically accurate sets or figures that others may choose to collect.
 
This seems a bit like a 'tempest in a teapot' to me. It's an excellent representation of a factory ruin and I'd buy one in a heartbeat if given the chance.
 
On a slightly lighter note, the new AK Panzer II looks promising, wasn't the Wespe and Marder II and companion munitions carriers based on the Panzer II chassis? hint-hint, nudge-nudge, wink-wink say no more.:)

Fred
 
Like the way you think Fred!.Yes that MKII looks good,especially in that pic with the Storch.As for the ruin its all about interpretation,for me its a factory ruin full stop.As Brad said can't imagine anyone wanting to make anything on the holocaust at all.

Rob
 
I think the issue here is the second picture of the factory showing the German guards, the watch dog, and the prisoner being lead away,which when viewed quickly, one thinks death camp. If the second picture had never been shown and the only one was the Russians assaulting the factory with German defenders, this never would have been an issue. Furnaces in factories are numbered, have seen it hundreds of times. If Gordon and Andy make this piece available for sale to dealers, I'm in, end of story.

A website I used to frequent made up of models, dioramas, etc that were WWII based had a section on it entitled "Competition pictures" and was a gallery of models, dioramas, figures from various shows around the world. One of the dioramas that won numerous awards at shows around Europe was a huge diorama showing a railway station with a train and numerous box cars attached to the train. Groups of civilians were climbing out of the box cars and assembling, others were being marched away by German guards, an obvious depiction of civilians being led away to death camps.

It was very disturbing,yet moving diorama. Some questioned the subject matter and such on the forum within the website. An ugly episode in the history of the world, the ultimate act of cruelty from one human being to another...................
 
Reality and perception are two different things.

On the contrary my friend, reality and perception, in my humble opinion, are more often than not the same:) It (perception or reality) is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. Else wise marketing is a waste of time:rolleyes: Perception is reality and reality is perception.

So....do you and I exist:confused: I have been waxing philosophically lately; perhaps I have been spending too much time with toy soldiers:rolleyes:

And, we've discussed this on previous posts, we should avoid PC idous. To see something that isn't there is often a wish to see that which we want to see. So everyone just lighten up.
 
What he just said; couldn't have said it any better myself......:D
 
I don't wish to bring this thread down again but it did make me think of a couple of things.

1) At the time how much did the average allied soldier know about the treatment of Jews during WWII. I recall the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the Jewish soldier was showing his dogtags to passing German soldiers and saying Juden or something similar. But just how much did the average GI etc know about their treatment prior to the discovery of the concentration camps very late in the war?

2) My main interest in WWII involves the different weapons and uniforms used by the different countries rather than their politics or beliefs. Consequently I tend to concentrate on movies that feature battle action rather than those that focus upon the frailties of humans and our beliefs. For example I still haven't seen Schindlers List despite the book being written by an Aussie: http://www.australianbiography.gov.au/keneally/
 
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I know what you mean Oz. A few weeks back I went to the Imperial war Museum in London.
It's a great place. You walk in and there's a Jagdpanther in front of you and next to that a T34. Then there's a Grant and a Matilda and a Sherman and the list goes on and you look in the air and there's a Spitfire, a FW190 and a P51 suspended from the ceiling. Not content with that there's a Flak 88 amongst a whole host of artillery pieces.
It was the first time I'd been and I felt like a kid in a sweet shop! I was exhilerated.
Then I went into the Holocaust memorial section and I came out feeling incredibly low and with a lot of food for thought. There's some true horror in there.

Incidently in that exhibition they have a large diorama/replica of Auschwitz. It's all white but very detailed and well worth a visit.
 
While the IWM is a great place to go, let's not forget that the Allied pieces you see there were developed in response to the war machines developed by the Nazis, a group whose goal was to eradicate whole groups of people by any means necessary. I don't think you can separate the instruments of war from the instruments of eradication. They came from the same sick minds that were responsiblen for countless deaths.
 
I agree with you Brad(and i work at the museum).Which is why i am always a little confused regarding the almost hero worship of people like Rommel,Wittman,Galland and others.They were all fighting for the worst scum in history,and in the same breath will moan about people like Monty who may have made mistakes but who was fighting so that future generations can live in freedom from this filth.Really annoys me sometimes.

Whenever i walk through that holocaust exhibition i thank god for every British and American general whatever their faults.

Rob
 
Rob,
Couldn't agree with you more; whenever I see people slamming Monty and Patton, it makes my blood boil. These Generals were on OUR side, don't know why people can't get that through their thick skulls.

For what it's worth, I could care LESS about their personality quirks, please don't try to introduce that into a discussion and it has ZERO merit, end of story....................
 
Warrior you are spot on.People go on about Rommel and how he didn't commit atrocities.But the man he worked for and in his own words loved killed six million Jewish people!!!.I think today he may have been found guilty of aiding and abetting murder!.

I totally agree about Monty/Patton and Mark Clark etc,they were human and had faults of course.But they were on the right side fighting that hideous regime in the best way they could.We'd be living in hell on earth if it wasn't for them.As i "preach" at the museum we should really celebrate how the UK/USA came together and kicked Hitler and his thousand year reich into oblivion.

Rob
 
Rob,
Sounds like you've got a great career; as much as I love selling the toy soldiers, you must equally love talking about the REAL soldiers. You and I are very fortunate.............
 

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