RAF High Command in WW2 (2 Viewers)

I will be interested to see the photos of the Bomber Command memorial.

I just wanted to be sure that my comments about the "bomber barons" were not in any way a comment on the air crews. The men of all the air forces went out and did some frightfully dangerous stuff and they did it repeatedly and quite often effectively. Remember that in WW2 many casualties resulted from crashes, not just enemy action. These guys went up in unheated, usually unpressurized and sometimes rather unsafe planes that were heavily loaded. All of these guys deserve the utmoist of respect and admiration.

Gary B.
 
I will be interested to see the photos of the Bomber Command memorial.

I just wanted to be sure that my comments about the "bomber barons" were not in any way a comment on the air crews. The men of all the air forces went out and did some frightfully dangerous stuff and they did it repeatedly and quite often effectively. Remember that in WW2 many casualties resulted from crashes, not just enemy action. These guys went up in unheated, usually unpressurized and sometimes rather unsafe planes that were heavily loaded. All of these guys deserve the utmoist of respect and admiration.

Gary B.

Well said Gary:cool:

I'll keep this thread updated of progress on the memorial, they are hoping it will be finished and unveiled in November next year.

Rob
 
I'm not for one second saying that all Luftwaffe pilots were like the B***** that targeted the school,I know some were very honourable and indeed I believe some became friends with RAF pilots after the war.

From a young age I learned about the Horrors of the Blitz first hand from my parents and their parents.From the many talks I've had over the years with dozens of civilian veterans from that time the vast majority I have met wanted the Germans to 'Get it back tenfold' and I must confess its difficult to argue with their point of view. Having had their family killed and homes destroyed to be brutally frank they didn't give a toss when they heard about Dresden and wanted Germany flattened.I'm sure German people felt the same when they heard about V Weapons on London,its human nature. It is indeed very hard to put ourselves in anyones shoes seventy years on but we can all agree on one thing.All bombing of civilians is Terrible and one of the worst aspects of warfare.If someone is blown up or burnt alive in an air raid it matters not if its London,Berlin,Coventry,Dresden.Pearl Harbour,Australia,Stalingrad or anywhere else,its still a tragedy.

I don't want to argue or upset anyone here as I know bombing is a very hot topic,but I want to say the guys in Bomber Command will always have my deepest respect,admiration and gratitude for what they did in shortening the worst war in history. For me Bomber Harris was the right man at the right time and did the right job.For the sake of the world the Allied Nations had to win, terrible as it was for the German people at the time, it eventually freed their country as well as many others.

Plans have just been unveiled for a large new memorial in Green Park London for the men of Bomber Command, and when it opens I'll be there with my camera to share it all with you.

Rob

I too agree that they did shorten the war. I said so in my earlier post, but since revisited my Times Atlas of WW2 from about 25 years ago, which has a good slice of useful information. It is not referenced so I hope it is accurate.

From 1940 to 1945 the USAAF lost 9949 bombers (754,818 sorties), RAF 11965 (687,462 sorties), USAAF lost 8429 fighters (991,750 sorties), RAF 10045 (1,695,049 sorties). I am not sure if these figures are just ETO or not, but think they may be.

The USAAF lost 79,265 personnel, the RAF 79,281. Presumably the USAAF figure relates to the larger crew numbers in the B17 etc?

The other interesting thing from this article points out that only in 1944 did the bombing campaign become able to inflict serious damage. This was after firstly Operation Pointblank, to hit the Luftwaffe and its manufacturing and supply chain, secondly the destruction of bridges and other tactical transport targets before DDay. N.B. The bomber chiefs argued against such diversion, but the view in this article was that the attack on the Luftwaffe (highlight 'big week' in Feb44) with destruction of plant and aircraft in the supply chain, plus transport targets, all helped the subsequent bombing offensive.

New navigational aids, Mustangs with drop tanks and a weakened defence allowed the air forces to run riot, weakening Germany for the last attacks from East and West. The combined offensive from April 1944 to 1945, with RAF bombing mainly area targets at night and the USAAF with more precision targets by day, dropped 906,000 tons of bombs on France and Germany, most on industrial targets - 224,000 on oil, 319,000 on transportation and 57,000 on the aircraft industry. The RAF dropped a further 674,000 tons on German and Italian cities mainly at night.

By March 1945, the 8th USAAF had 7100 aircraft, the RAF Bomber Command 6900. In terms of numbers and size of aircraft compared with the earlier Luftwaffe attack on Coventry they did indeed reap the whirlwind.

Estimated 650,000 civilian casualties, mainly women, children and old men, but V1s and V2s were raining on Britain, pitiful in comparison of scale but..............

Bombing diverted 2m Germans into AA defence, more than in the entire aircraft industry. One third of artillery and one fifth of shells went to AA defence. Half of electro-technical and a third of optical production was used for AAD. Germany was short of fuel and found it difficult to transport it. It still made 36,000 aircraft in 1944, but had planned for 80,000.
 
I too agree that they did shorten the war. I said so in my earlier post, but since revisited my Times Atlas of WW2 from about 25 years ago, which has a good slice of useful information. It is not referenced so I hope it is accurate.

From 1940 to 1945 the USAAF lost 9949 bombers (754,818 sorties), RAF 11965 (687,462 sorties), USAAF lost 8429 fighters (991,750 sorties), RAF 10045 (1,695,049 sorties). I am not sure if these figures are just ETO or not, but think they may be.

The USAAF lost 79,265 personnel, the RAF 79,281. Presumably the USAAF figure relates to the larger crew numbers in the B17 etc?

The other interesting thing from this article points out that only in 1944 did the bombing campaign become able to inflict serious damage. This was after firstly Operation Pointblank, to hit the Luftwaffe and its manufacturing and supply chain, secondly the destruction of bridges and other tactical transport targets before DDay. N.B. The bomber chiefs argued against such diversion, but the view in this article was that the attack on the Luftwaffe (highlight 'big week' in Feb44) with destruction of plant and aircraft in the supply chain, plus transport targets, all helped the subsequent bombing offensive.

New navigational aids, Mustangs with drop tanks and a weakened defence allowed the air forces to run riot, weakening Germany for the last attacks from East and West. The combined offensive from April 1944 to 1945, with RAF bombing mainly area targets at night and the USAAF with more precision targets by day, dropped 906,000 tons of bombs on France and Germany, most on industrial targets - 224,000 on oil, 319,000 on transportation and 57,000 on the aircraft industry. The RAF dropped a further 674,000 tons on German and Italian cities mainly at night.

By March 1945, the 8th USAAF had 7100 aircraft, the RAF Bomber Command 6900. In terms of numbers and size of aircraft compared with the earlier Luftwaffe attack on Coventry they did indeed reap the whirlwind.

Estimated 650,000 civilian casualties, mainly women, children and old men, but V1s and V2s were raining on Britain, pitiful in comparison of scale but..............

Bombing diverted 2m Germans into AA defence, more than in the entire aircraft industry. One third of artillery and one fifth of shells went to AA defence. Half of electro-technical and a third of optical production was used for AAD. Germany was short of fuel and found it difficult to transport it. It still made 36,000 aircraft in 1944, but had planned for 80,000.

Excellent post Kevin,very interesting.

I often think it is an overlooked miracle that in the months running up to D Day Allied air forces were able to almost cut off Normandy to incoming and out going traffic without giving the game away.

As you suggest,horrific as it was for the victims,the V weapon barrage was never going to win the war,Hitler would have been better spending money on Tanks and guns etc, still , he was a seriously deluded man so we can't expect any better can we!:rolleyes:;)

Rob
 
Excellent post Kevin,very interesting.

I often think it is an overlooked miracle that in the months running up to D Day Allied air forces were able to almost cut off Normandy to incoming and out going traffic without giving the game away.

As you suggest,horrific as it was for the victims,the V weapon barrage was never going to win the war,Hitler would have been better spending money on Tanks and guns etc, still , he was a seriously deluded man so we can't expect any better can we!:rolleyes:;)

Rob

Your spot when you say Hitler would of been better making tanks instead of V weapons , I've been to France & Germany & seen the v1, V2 & V3 bunkers & most of them were never used , In Berlin one of the big flak tower took six months to built working 24 /7 none stop & during the hole time only shot down twenty planes :eek:
 
one point people forget is later in the war the 8th air force took up area bombing in bad weather with radar aids + Norton bomb site was not as good as they would have you believe;) Some of the best pin point raids of WW2 were done by the RAF , just look at the raids 617sq done
 
one point people forget is later in the war the 8th air force took up area bombing in bad weather with radar aids + Norton bomb site was not as good as they would have you believe;) Some of the best pin point raids of WW2 were done by the RAF , just look at the raids 617sq done

Agreed, with Barnes Wallis' brains and the tallboy bombs they caused some damage!

People like Guy Gibson VC and Leonard Cheshire VC are very much unsung heroes IMO.
 
Your spot when you say Hitler would of been better making tanks instead of V weapons , I've been to France & Germany & seen the v1, V2 & V3 bunkers & most of them were never used , In Berlin one of the big flak tower took six months to built working 24 /7 none stop & during the hole time only shot down twenty planes :eek:

Rob, UKsubs

I hope you don't mind me puting up this link to a short bit I put out on the V2 on the Arnhem thread (an excuse to post some pics of Clive's Figarti V2s)

The allied analysts were delighted that he spent so much on these none re-usable rockets, whatever the psychological effect.

http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6392&page=80
 
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Thanks for posting these Kevin,really moving, heartbreaking films. Lets hope we never have to experience a world war again.And for anyone on this forum who doubts how bad the Blitz/RAF bombing of Germany was, take a good long look.

Rob
 
UKSubs...

Here here mate. Look at the Tallboy bombs dropped on the Tirpitz in that day with those bombs and planes truely astonishing they actually sank her
Mitch

one point people forget is later in the war the 8th air force took up area bombing in bad weather with radar aids + Norton bomb site was not as good as they would have you believe;) Some of the best pin point raids of WW2 were done by the RAF , just look at the raids 617sq done
 

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