Retired Figures - What happens to them? (1 Viewer)

[Tony Neville]

interesting thread

here is how it works at K&C UK

dispatches come out and we get informed from K&C HK which sets are ending. Myself and Mike decide on the sets as to their past popularity / commercial demand and make a call on numbers we would like.

Dependant on K&C HK stoc level of a model we either get what we want or make do with what we can get.

We always have a monthly flurry (phone calls, e-mails, fax's etc) asking for sets that are going. Here at K&C UK we are happy to 'Put by' sets until the customer / K&C UK member is able to buy.

ALL retired sets stay at origional K&C UK retail price until such time the stocks are sold out. For example we still have a couple of FOB 02 left at the RRP of £20.95 still.

Our classic discontinued is different as most of these are collections that we buy back to fill our showroom and if we have doubles or plus then we put them on there to sell.

wehold wish lists for customers looking for old items and often this can influence us to buy collections if those items are there.

There is always a sale as there are always new collectors coming on for example just today a customer new to collecting was after the KOSB WWI items and we managed to get him a couple of the sets and then point him in the right direction for some of the others.

hope this helps from a delaer perspective on how it works

regards

Tony Neville
K&C UK

 

[Vezzolf]

Hi Guys,

I just read Terry (Phantom Warrior) and his reply… and also re-read Mr. V’s original email…

Apologies Vezzolf I misread your post I thought it meant three quarters i.e. 3/4 instead of “3-4 times original price”… Sorry, once again, time for me to eat a piece of humble pie!

Best wishes and happy collecting!
Andy C.

No problem Andy...But while I have your attention...Is it OK with K/C policy that "authorized K/C" dealers be allowed to re-market retired items at prices well inflated above original retail???.... To me this does not seem right.... What is your view on this matter regarding bonified retailers?.....

 

[Mitch]

Vezzolf...

Is this not how it works in a business which, has items which, become rare and hard to get. If AN replies and states its wrong then where does this put everyone including K&C UK and their classic discontinued section? There are some people who may ask for an arm and a leg but, if collectors are willing to pay that then, is it not as much the collectors fault as the alleged unscrupulous dealers etc.

You would restrict the bona fide dealers making money on sets that are probably from what I have seen priced according to their rarity and scarcity.

Its the same in every hobby prices will get inflated its not right or wrong and, it would be nice if everything was cheap but, it does not and probably won't ever change. IMO

Mitch

 

[Vezzolf]

Vezzolf...

Is this not how it works in a business which, has items which, become rare and hard to get. If AN replies and states its wrong then where does this put everyone including K&C UK and their classic discontinued section? There are some people who may ask for an arm and a leg but, if collectors are willing to pay that then, is it not as much the collectors fault as the alleged unscrupulous dealers etc.

You would restrict the bona fide dealers making money on sets that are probably from what I have seen priced according to their rarity and scarcity.

Its the same in every hobby prices will get inflated its not right or wrong and, it would be nice if everything was cheap but, it does not and probably won't ever change. IMO

Mitch

Hi Mitch, It is my view that authorized K/C retailers should not be permitted to re-market K/C "retired pieces" to consumers at inflated prices......It would be too easy to manipulate prices and supplies and to do so unfairly at the expense of the general public.....I was just wondering what Andy's views are regarding the potential for abuse of access in this regard.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Vezzolf...

Is this not how it works in a business which, has items which, become rare and hard to get. If AN replies and states its wrong then where does this put everyone including K&C UK and their classic discontinued section? There are some people who may ask for an arm and a leg but, if collectors are willing to pay that then, is it not as much the collectors fault as the alleged unscrupulous dealers etc.

You would restrict the bona fide dealers making money on sets that are probably from what I have seen priced according to their rarity and scarcity.

Its the same in every hobby prices will get inflated its not right or wrong and, it would be nice if everything was cheap but, it does not and probably won't ever change. IMO

Mitch

I think Vezzolf is talking about dealers who hold back original stock for several years and then bring it out to sell at inflated prices as mint once the market price rises substantially, and not pieces owned by a 3rd party that have been re-acquired by the dealer in trade or by purchase of a collection.

Terry

 

[Mitch]

Vezzolf...

I know exactly what you mean and why you are saying it mate but, as I said I think the staus quo will be just that and cannot see K&C HK being willing or actually able to exact such a demand on dealers. I know they only state that you cannot sell for less the RRP but anything else would not happen IMO
Mitch

 

[Mitch]

Is that still not very similar to the whole issue about secondary markets and, for the dealers just good business sense in a popular and demanding hobby?
Mitch

I think Vezzolf is talking about dealers who hold back original stock for several years and then bring it out to sell at inflated prices as mint once the market price rises substantially, and not pieces owned by a 3rd party that have been re-acquired by the dealer in trade or by purchase of a collection.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Is that still not very similar to the whole issue about secondary markets and, for the dealers just good business sense in a popular and demanding hobby?
Mitch

No - I don't think it is. and I doubt it would be acceptable to the manufacturer. The items that get held back would be the most popular ones, if the dealer knows the market, so the item may sell out leaving some collectors unable to find one at retail. This is the case for some very popular, limited production items. It's not clear cut, but I don't think dealers should be allowed to hold back inventory on a speculative basis if the product is still being offered at retail on the market.

Terry

 

[thebritfarmer]

I would hazard a guess that most dealers don't have the space or perhaps to a lesser degree the financial ability to just hold onto stock. Product tucked away in the stock room does not pay the bills.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I would hazard a guess that most dealers don't have the space or perhaps to a lesser degree the financial ability to just hold onto stock. Product tucked away in the stock room does not pay the bills.

I agree - I know of only one instance (dealer) - but have been charged only the retail price for several long retired pieces still in their inventory by several dealers..

Terry

 

[Mitch]

Is that not what a free market is all about and, should a dealer wish to hold onto a piece then surely that is his or her choice. Its done quite a bit that I know of but, when you have things like SL's which you know are going to be sort after then its again, good business sense, and, I know a lot of collectors who do this very thing so, why are we just looking at dealers.

Whether or not it is right or wrong was not my point its the fact that you cannot stop this no matter what the view is about it.
Mitch

No - I don't think it is. and I doubt it would be acceptable to the manufacturer. The items that get held back would be the most popular ones, if the dealer knows the market, so the item may sell out leaving some collectors unable to find one at retail. This is the case for some very popular, limited production items. It's not clear cut, but I don't think dealers should be allowed to hold back inventory on a speculative basis if the product is still being offered at retail on the market.

Terry

 

[Vezzolf]

It is my view that authorized K/C retailers should not be permitted to re-market K/C "retired pieces" to consumers at inflated prices......It would be too easy to manipulate prices and supplies and to do so unfairly at the expense of the general public.....I was just wondering what Andy's views are regarding the potential for abuse of access in this regard.

I would still like to know K/C's official position on this matter....Do they discourage authorized distributors and dealers in this practice....Also see Terry's Post#28

 

[Capitolron]

I would hazard a guess that most dealers don't have the space or perhaps to a lesser degree the financial ability to just hold onto stock. Product tucked away in the stock room does not pay the bills.

I agree that most do not - However, there are some who do.

My beef is with the fact they are taking advantage of their dealer discount and making even more profit on top of what they already have been given in the normal course of business. If everyone was on the same playing (or paying) field that would be different - collector / dealer - but, the practice of holding back and taking advantage of your customers is shameful.

If you abuse your dealer discount - you should lose it.

 

[Tony Neville]

I guess there is no way they can enforce a second hand selling limit.

Our infantry for discontinued items is huge and at normal RRP for the UK.

As i say we then sell our classic items from collections at a rate that we feel the market is demanding (and had no issues todate) those who have BOUGHT the items have in fact been very apprecitive for the Classic Discontinued section. Again factors that we have to take into account with the Classic items is price bought in for (based on that most people selling K&C today know their 2nd hand market value) items included in collection and also any small amount of profit. However you will be surprised about the lack of profit in some of the classic items.

With the dealer keeping hold of the general models and then waiting and bringing them back out. Well as some one mentioned if they are ligit and pay their tax's wages etc how the hell they can afford to do that then that is beyond me. Due to the nature of the Model business there has to be a high turnover and yeild for the items to make any toy soldier business work. Its not about the big sell its about lots and often. Here at K&C UK we like the single figure buyers just as much as the guys who drop a credit card limit every month. Also how does a dealer know what is going to be a good second hand item. The Katousher that did not sell very well as a normal retail model got loads of attention after it was discontinued!! yet the LAH Staff car (40 or42) does not bring in the same sort of attention!

If an item goes up in price you will always see dealers of anything sell it at that rate (most of te time acheived else where)

Classic cars for example you dont get Ferrari telling the local guy to us that he cannot sell his classics higher than the origional RRP!

K&C HK have plenty of controls in place at the front end to ensure ALL dealers adhere to correct K&C selling rules. Minimum orders, minimum order value etc to enforce after sales issues would be a bit to much!

Tony

 

[OzDigger]

I doubt that King & Country have a policy controling sales of retired items above the original RRP as it can only benefit the popularity of K & C products - this is the business we are in However I don't think the practice of planning to withhold inventory until they retire is widespread, there is a stock level cost involved, and most dealers play things straight.

That said, given the options most dealers would be more inclined to offer their retired sets to their regular customers at the RRP rather than some random guy that contacted them to obtain an item to resell on eBay. It makes no commercial sense to do otherwise.

 

[Mitch]

The most important point Tony made was how do you know what will be rare and what will not. It also, IMO sounds again a bit like the whole price issue that was raised but, in another form. Everyone wants the same stuff at RRP and not a penny more but, its just unlikely to ever happen and IMO would devalue the hobby. Nobody on here can tell me that they want their collections to depreciate and would not rather make a profit than a loss. Its just commone sense and, a lot of the prices on thesecondary market or from dealers are in line with K&C CD.
Mitch

I guess there is no way they can enforce a second hand selling limit.

Our infantry for discontinued items is huge and at normal RRP for the UK.

As i say we then sell our classic items from collections at a rate that we feel the market is demanding (and had no issues todate) those who have BOUGHT the items have in fact been very apprecitive for the Classic Discontinued section. Again factors that we have to take into account with the Classic items is price bought in for (based on that most people selling K&C today know their 2nd hand market value) items included in collection and also any small amount of profit. However you will be surprised about the lack of profit in some of the classic items.

With the dealer keeping hold of the general models and then waiting and bringing them back out. Well as some one mentioned if they are ligit and pay their tax's wages etc how the hell they can afford to do that then that is beyond me. Due to the nature of the Model business there has to be a high turnover and yeild for the items to make any toy soldier business work. Its not about the big sell its about lots and often. Here at K&C UK we like the single figure buyers just as much as the guys who drop a credit card limit every month. Also how does a dealer know what is going to be a good second hand item. The Katousher that did not sell very well as a normal retail model got loads of attention after it was discontinued!! yet the LAH Staff car (40 or42) does not bring in the same sort of attention!

If an item goes up in price you will always see dealers of anything sell it at that rate (most of te time acheived else where)

Classic cars for example you dont get Ferrari telling the local guy to us that he cannot sell his classics higher than the origional RRP!

K&C HK have plenty of controls in place at the front end to ensure ALL dealers adhere to correct K&C selling rules. Minimum orders, minimum order value etc to enforce after sales issues would be a bit to much!

Tony

 

[Vezzolf]

Hi Mitch, It is my view that authorized K/C retailers should not be permitted to re-market K/C "retired pieces" to consumers at inflated prices......It would be too easy to manipulate prices and supplies and to do so unfairly at the expense of the general public.....I was just wondering what Andy's views are regarding the potential for abuse of access in this regard.

Mitch, Thank you for your viewpoint on this but my question is directed toward K/C and Andy...It would be good to get their input on this also I re-refer to Terry's Post # 28....Thank you Again

 

[The Military Workshop]

It is my understanding that Andy is currently away from Hong Kong and will not be back until about 23 JULY.

In relation to selling of retired items this has been covered before but as a dealer I operate in the following way.

When the retirements are announced I will place an order for them using my judgement on their popularity and whether I know any collectors who might need a particular item. I inform my customers as soon as I can about the retirements and the sale of those items will be on first come first served basis. Sometimes I may have stock left over and this remains on the shelves to be sold at normal price.

I do sometimes deliberately put aside an item for future resale via Ebay and obviously hope to get a good price. If you look at my Ebay sales we are not talking a lot of items. I may then list a few together on Ebay. Those sales fund something in the business such as signage etc. We are not talking multiples of anything put aside and when this has happened it has been due to over ordering by me (and underordering by my customers !!!).

Sometimes a regular happens to mention he is looking for something and I realise I have one put aside and will then sell it to him at pretty much normal price. However if a stranger calls or emails looking for that item then my reply is no. I would rather it go to a regular or a new shop customer.

MY understanding is that K&C's policy is that dealers do not sell cheaper than the K&C RRP. There is no guide about selling higher than RRP and I doubt there would be.

I do not come across collections much but last year did buy a few items from a collector who was re-arranging his study. He had sold a few items before I got there (incl. Wittman Tiger for about US$90 ) but I bought all his remaining items (incl a few Britains items). One was an unboxed Galland ME109 which I paid about US$68 for (although as I said I bought multiple items as a group). Much to my amazement I sold it on Ebay for 10 x that a few weeks later.

Regards
Brett

Regards
Brett

 

[Mitch]

Brett...

I think a few people in every hobby and every walk of life seem to think selling for profit is a dirty word but, I am realistic in my hobby and business ventures we all want to make money and, nobody can deny that so, if a lot of people were in the same position its obvious you want to make the best return possible. What is obvious is when people are trying to be greedy and when they are making a living selling popular items. When I have come across the later I walk away with my money. I have never bought from anywhere where I thought that was too much and, as long as everyone is happy then there is for me, no harm in items being seen as 'pricey' its just the way it happens to be.
Mitch

It is my understanding that Andy is currently away from Hong Kong and will not be back until about 23 JULY.

In relation to selling of retired items this has been covered before but as a dealer I operate in the following way.

When the retirements are announced I will place an order for them using my judgement on their popularity and whether I know any collectors who might need a particular item. I inform my customers as soon as I can about the retirements and the sale of those items will be on first come first served basis. Sometimes I may have stock left over and this remains on the shelves to be sold at normal price.

I do sometimes deliberately put aside an item for future resale via Ebay and obviously hope to get a good price. If you look at my Ebay sales we are not talking a lot of items. I may then list a few together on Ebay. Those sales fund something in the business such as signage etc. We are not talking multiples of anything put aside and when this has happened it has been due to over ordering by me (and underordering by my customers !!!).

Sometimes a regular happens to mention he is looking for something and I realise I have one put aside and will then sell it to him at pretty much normal price. However if a stranger calls or emails looking for that item then my reply is no. I would rather it go to a regular or a new shop customer.

MY understanding is that K&C's policy is that dealers do not sell cheaper than the K&C RRP. There is no guide about selling higher than RRP and I doubt there would be.

I do not come across collections much but last year did buy a few items from a collector who was re-arranging his study. He had sold a few items before I got there (incl. Wittman Tiger for about US$90 ) but I bought all his remaining items (incl a few Britains items). One was an unboxed Galland ME109 which I paid about US$68 for (although as I said I bought multiple items as a group). Much to my amazement I sold it on Ebay for 10 x that a few weeks later.

Regards
Brett

Regards
Brett

 

[Vezzolf]

Hi Mitch, It is my view that authorized K/C retailers should not be permitted to re-market K/C "retired pieces" to consumers at inflated prices......It would be too easy to manipulate prices and supplies and to do so unfairly at the expense of the general public.....I was just wondering what Andy's views are regarding the potential for abuse of access in this regard.

Authorized K/C dealers purchase K/C products "well below" the retail price that consumers pay......Retailers are therefore "able" to purchase popular items, retired items or SL items in larger numbers and hold them....... then latter sell on secondary markets like e-bay for ridiculous prices....As K/C retail prices have risen for consumers,the old strategy of buy multiples,hord, and then resell on e-bay at inflated prices does not work as well anymore for the general "collector"......(Good riddens to this strategy)...........Also with a struggling economy buyers are less likely to "over-pay".......Consider also that with more toy soldier products available of equal or better quality from other manufacturers, buyers have other options......There is too much potential for abuse if authorized K/C dealers play the "retired K/C game".....I would think that Andy and K/C would not and do not condone such practices.....Respectfully "Vezzolf"