Retrospective victoria cross/medal of honor. (3 Viewers)

[Jack]

PS You can be sure I will revive the thread when the results are known

Brett

Is this a public commitment to reviving the thread even if you are proven wrong? You corrected me on my mis-attribution of 'Its a long way to Tipperary' so I assume you apply the same high standard to your own posts.{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}


Regards

Jack

 

[The Military Workshop]

Jack,
Certainly no problem for me to revive the thread. Pretty sure it will be big news when they reach their conclusions so not likely to forget. Since I have no personal investment into who gets awarded a VC or not I just find it an interesting subject.

For those who may not be aware about the Long Way to Tipperary reference it is actually a British song and was not attributed to the Australian Army although they may have sung it or played it{sm4}.

Regards
Brett

 

[waynepoo]

Jack,
Certainly no problem for me to revive the thread. Pretty sure it will be big news when they reach their conclusions so not likely to forget. Since I have no personal investment into who gets awarded a VC or not I just find it an interesting subject.

For those who may not be aware about the Long Way to Tipperary reference it is actually a British song and was not attributed to the Australian Army although they may have sung it or played it{sm4}.

Regards
Brett

OK, that saves a pm to Jack to find out what he was on about.:wink2::rolleyes2:{sm4}
Wayne.

 

[Jack]

For those who may not be aware about the Long Way to Tipperary reference it is actually a British song and was not attributed to the Australian Army although they may have sung it or played it{sm4}.



Yes - I believe they sung it on the way up to the Front where they won those Victoria Crosses!{sm4}{sm4}

 

[The Military Workshop]

Thread revived as promised.

On 6 February 2013, the Tribunal handed its Report to the Government with the following recommendations:

Recommendation 1: No action be taken by the Australian Government to award a Victoria Cross (VC) for Australia or any other form of medallic recognition for gallantry or valour to any of the 13 individuals named in the Terms of Reference.

Recommendation 2: That a Unit Citation for Gallantry be awarded to HMAS Yarra.

Recommendation 3: That the names of the Ships HMAS Perth, Rankin, Sheean, Waller and Yarra be perpetuated in the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) after the present named ships are decommissioned.

Recommendation 4: Other proposals to recognise the gallantry of some of the individuals, such as a permanent or rotating exhibition at the Australian War Memorial, be expored further.

Recommendation 5: The Australian Government continues to ensure that the memorial erected to commemorate the Sandakan death marches at Ranau, East Malaysia, is maintained in perptuity.

Recommendation 6: The Department of Defence amend its Honours and awards manual to reflect changes resulting from the establishment of the Defence Honours and Awards Appeals Tribunal and the advice from the Australian Government Solicitor that the Australian Parliament could pass a valid act directing the Minister for Defence to recommend particular honours. The amended manual should, as required by Section 8A of the Freedom of Information Act 1982, be made publicly available.

On 1 March 2013, the Government announced its acceptance of these recommendations

The full report goes into great detail for each case and can be read at :
at http://defence-honours-tribunal.gov.au/inquiries/completed-inquiries/valour/

Regards
Brett

 

[Jack]

Thread revived as promised.

Brett

You just can't help yourself!!{sm4}{sm4}

 

[The Military Workshop]

You just can't help yourself!!{sm4}{sm4}

Jack,
If I had not revived it you would have said I did not keep my promise !!!

Now go and read all the reports. I have read Sheehan and Simpson so far and very comprehensive
including who was for and against (John Howard was against Simpson award).

Brett

 

[Mitch]

common sense prevailed
Mitch

Thread revived as promised.

On 6 February 2013, the Tribunal handed its Report to the Government with the following recommendations:

Recommendation 1: No action be taken by the Australian Government to award a Victoria Cross (VC) for Australia or any other form of medallic recognition for gallantry or valour to any of the 13 individuals named in the Terms of Reference.

Recommendation 2: That a Unit Citation for Gallantry be awarded to HMAS Yarra.

Recommendation 3: That the names of the Ships HMAS Perth, Rankin, Sheean, Waller and Yarra be perpetuated in the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) after the present named ships are decommissioned.

Recommendation 4: Other proposals to recognise the gallantry of some of the individuals, such as a permanent or rotating exhibition at the Australian War Memorial, be expored further.

Recommendation 5: The Australian Government continues to ensure that the memorial erected to commemorate the Sandakan death marches at Ranau, East Malaysia, is maintained in perptuity.

Recommendation 6: The Department of Defence amend its Honours and awards manual to reflect changes resulting from the establishment of the Defence Honours and Awards Appeals Tribunal and the advice from the Australian Government Solicitor that the Australian Parliament could pass a valid act directing the Minister for Defence to recommend particular honours. The amended manual should, as required by Section 8A of the Freedom of Information Act 1982, be made publicly available.

On 1 March 2013, the Government announced its acceptance of these recommendations

The full report goes into great detail for each case and can be read at :
at http://defence-honours-tribunal.gov.au/inquiries/completed-inquiries/valour/

Regards
Brett

 

[waynepoo]

Thread revived as promised.

On 6 February 2013, the Tribunal handed its Report to the Government with the following recommendations:

Recommendation 1: No action be taken by the Australian Government to award a Victoria Cross (VC) for Australia or any other form of medallic recognition for gallantry or valour to any of the 13 individuals named in the Terms of Reference.

Recommendation 2: That a Unit Citation for Gallantry be awarded to HMAS Yarra.

Recommendation 3: That the names of the Ships HMAS Perth, Rankin, Sheean, Waller and Yarra be perpetuated in the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) after the present named ships are decommissioned.

Recommendation 4: Other proposals to recognise the gallantry of some of the individuals, such as a permanent or rotating exhibition at the Australian War Memorial, be expored further.

Recommendation 5: The Australian Government continues to ensure that the memorial erected to commemorate the Sandakan death marches at Ranau, East Malaysia, is maintained in perptuity.

Recommendation 6: The Department of Defence amend its Honours and awards manual to reflect changes resulting from the establishment of the Defence Honours and Awards Appeals Tribunal and the advice from the Australian Government Solicitor that the Australian Parliament could pass a valid act directing the Minister for Defence to recommend particular honours. The amended manual should, as required by Section 8A of the Freedom of Information Act 1982, be made publicly available.

On 1 March 2013, the Government announced its acceptance of these recommendations

The full report goes into great detail for each case and can be read at :
at http://defence-honours-tribunal.gov.au/inquiries/completed-inquiries/valour/

Regards
Brett

Agree with all but the first recommendation.....which is just wrong.
Wayne.

 

[TomB]

Mitch is correct as I did start a thread about this in Jan 2011 (see below). I agreed with Mitch then and still agree with him now. This subject is again in the press here as the Govt is examining some specific cases. The Australian Navy has never received a VC and this often gets the press attention. Compared with some British Navy VC's it does appear some Australian's did deserve it based on similar circumstances. Wayne mentions HMAS Perth and her Captain.

Another example being examined is HMAS Yarra, a sloop, and her Captain Richard Rankin. On 3 MAR 1942 they were escorting three merchants in the Java sea when an overwhelming Japanese force of three cruisers and two destroyers appeared. They signalled their position, fired smoke and ordered the merchants to disperse. The CAPT then turned to face the enemy and steamed towards them. Only 13 of the 151 crew survived. This web page has some interesting background to the medal claims - http://users.picknowl.com.au/~wjb718/hmas yarra-rankin.html

Whilst I believe some probably did deserve such an award I do not believe such awards can be issued by a Govt 70 years later. It appear the US MOH hads been awarded many years later but I am not aware of any such later VC award.

My previous thread starter was :

http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/fo...d-of-Bravery-Medal-long-after-the-event/page3
In another thread the subject of the retrospective award of medals was raised.

I mentioned Simpson who was an Aussie at Gallipoli who used a donkey to evacuate the wounded. He was put up for a Victoria Cross in WWI but it was not approved. Even quite recently people raised the matter of awarding Simpson a belated VC.

Mitch commented

"A brave man indeed as were many thousands but, I don't agree with this retrospective pressure for awards they were deliberated at the time and denied for failing to reach the criteria for the VC which, and rightly so, is high and other awards are given in such cases.

Modern society seems to want to retrospectively amend written history events decisions to readily etc and I think its wrong IMO"

I agree with Mitch but it is an interesting subject.

An Australian Senator recently submitted evidence in support of the claim to Department of Defence officials in Senate estimates hearings in Canberra.

“Of the 97 Victoria Cross medals awarded to Australians, none have been awarded to Navy personnel. 93 have been awarded to Army and 4 to Air Force personnel.

“Ordinary Seaman Teddy Sheean is widely regarded as having acted in a manner worthy of a Victoria Cross when, despite an order to abandon ship, he strapped himself to an anti-aircraft gun aboard the sinking HMAS Armidale in December 1942, continuing to fire his weapon, even as the ship sank beneath the waves.

“Teddy Sheean’s targets were Japanese aircraft which were continuing to shoot his fellow sailors while they were in the water awaiting rescue.

“He was successful in shooting down at least one Japanese Zero fighter aircraft, and possibly more.

“I believe that his actions deserve to be recognized with a posthumous Victoria Cross. It would be a fitting tribute for this fine Tasmanian and would begin to redress the lack or recognition for Royal Australian Navy personnel,” Senator Barnett said.

Senator Barnett also nominated other possible candidates to receive a posthumous VC, including Captain Hec Waller, lost on HMAS Perth in March 1942, Lieutenant Commander Robert Rankin, lost on HMAS Yarra in March 1942, and Captain Henry Stoker, commander of the submarine AE-2, which penetrated the Dardanelles at the start of the Gallipoli campaign in 1915. Notably, all of these candidates served in the Royal Australian Navy.

“There appears to be overwhelming evidence to support the claims for Captain Hec Waller and Ordinary Seaman Teddy Sheean,” Senator Barnett said.

“If Victoria Cross’s could be awarded to these two men to mark the Royal Australian Navy’s 100th Anniversary next year, that would be a wonderful gesture.

Senator Barnett also said it would be a great boost to morale in the Navy today".

The Senator is an idiot trying to use an Anniversary and current Navy morale to suppport the VC's. Note three of the four were Captains who went down with their ship and Sheehan is from the Senators state.. Sheehan's case is worthy but I have read that the ship should not have been where it was due to the danger in that area and the Navy did want to draw attention to the fact it should not have been where it was.

There has been ongoing debate over the award of medals to members of D Company who took part in the Battle of Long Tan in Vietnam (Australia's most famous battle in Vietnam). There was a quota system in effect at the time and only so many medals could be awarded per year. For example most senior officers got a DSO for being in Vietnam. The Company Commander got a Military Cross when many thought he should have got a DSO. After numerous reviews some of the officers recently had their medals "upgraded".

The Company Comander was recently awarded the Star of Gallantry (a medal that did not exist during Vietnam). His medal set is now on display in a museum and includes both medals. He is still campaigning to get awards
for some of his soldiers. Due to a change in the medals system the medals awarded in Vietnam (ie MC an MM etc) are no longer in use. It does appear more medals (and higher awards ) should have been awarded but it is hard to overcome the fcat that was the system at the time.

I know Bruce Crandell the Huey Pilot at the battle of Ia Drang (featured in Once Were Soldiers) did not receive his Congressional Medal of Honor until 40 years later.I believe after the American Civil; War some CMH winners
were asked to return them as too many were awarded (in a naval engagement).

I don't know any British examples.

Anybody know any other such cases ?

Regards
Brett

The Army is strange on how they issue awards.... Harry Smith ..Delta Company got a MC for Long Tan...another Major a fair time later , received a MC for being a good company comdr....this officer..very respected and rightly so..stated the award was given to his company and not to him........Simpson got a MID......for transporting wounded ..... under enemy fire....the reason he only received a MID ...he was only doing his job.....three example's on how the system works...TomB

 

[The Military Workshop]

The Army is strange on how they issue awards.... Harry Smith ..Delta Company got a MC for Long Tan...another Major a fair time later , received a MC for being a good company comdr....this officer..very respected and rightly so..stated the award was given to his company and not to him........Simpson got a MID......for transporting wounded ..... under enemy fire....the reason he only received a MID ...he was only doing his job.....three example's on how the system works...TomB

Tom,
For Simpson his award was posthumous as only VC and MID can be awarded posthumously. The tribunal listed others from his unit and it appears he did no more than they did. Perhaps the "difference" was he died so he became the symbol of the medical guys.

Harry Smith was recently upgraded to a Star of Gallantry but the museum that displays his medals now refers to him as Harry Smith SG MC.

Incidentally if you look at the Tribunals findings (Annexure) it lists others whose names were put forward. Jacka VC was one. I recognised two Long Tan guys (Frank Alcorta of A Coy and Lt Gordon Sharpe who I think is now MG) and there were quite a few others from Vietnam.

Brett

 

[OzDigger]

Tom,
For Simpson his award was posthumous as only VC and MID can be awarded posthumously. The tribunal listed others from his unit and it appears he did no more than they did. Perhaps the "difference" was he died so he became the symbol of the medical guys.

Harry Smith was recently upgraded to a Star of Gallantry but the museum that displays his medals now refers to him as Harry Smith SG MC.

Incidentally if you look at the Tribunals findings (Annexure) it lists others whose names were put forward. Jacka VC was one. I recognised two Long Tan guys (Frank Alcorta of A Coy and Lt Gordon Sharpe who I think is now MG) and there were quite a few others from Vietnam.

Brett

I don't much about the other applications so won't comment on them, but I agree that Simpson should not have received the VC - he carried out the normal duties of Medics and similar.

 

[TomB]

I don't much about the other applications so won't comment on them, but I agree that Simpson should not have received the VC - he carried out the normal duties of Medics and similar.

The system works on a system on awarding gongs....I have merely given three examples....but....if carrying out your normal duties..means just that...then where do gongs come into it ...does it mean mean Medic"s cant win gong"s..... when in a lot of case's (most)...... they are more at risk than the diggers running around being hero's......cheers TomB

 

[The Military Workshop]

Oops ! Not only did he not get a backdated VC but now the Honors and Awards Panel are pretty much saying Simpson and his Donkey were over rated.

2 Page story about it in Sydney Morning Herald today and this from their web page.

An official inquiry has punctured the most popular legend of the Gallipoli campaign by declaring that Simpson - the man with the donkey - was not exceptionally brave.

A Defence Department committee last week found there were no grounds to justify the demand of a long-running public campaign that John Simpson Kirkpatrick be awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross.

But the committee went further to rule that the British-born private was no more gallant than scores of other stretcher bearers who transported wounded soldiers in the first weeks after the Gallipoli landing in April 1915.

''The tribunal found that Simpson's initiative and bravery were representative of all other stretcher bearers of the 3rd Field Ambulance,'' the report said.

Simpson - who enlisted under his middle name to hide the fact that he was a deserter from the merchant navy - spent several weeks ferrying wounded soldiers on a stray donkey before he was killed on May 19.

His story captured the imagination of war correspondents and the Australian public, which came to regard his selfless bravery as exemplifying the Anzac spirit. His deeds have since been celebrated in a series of books, films and plays.

But a year-long inquiry by the Defence Honours and Awards Appeals Tribunal heard evidence that it was impossible for Simpson to have rescued the more than 300 wounded soldiers whose lives he is widely credited with saving.

Instead, it was estimated that he ferried fewer than half that number before his death - all of them lightly wounded and none with life-threatening injuries.

The tribunal was told that there was no evidence in military archives to support the popular belief that Simpson had repeatedly ventured into no man's land under Turkish fire to rescue badly wounded soldiers.

One submission detailed how a number of witnesses, whose vivid accounts of Simpson's bravery have reinforced the legend of the man with the donkey, were not even at Gallipoli at the time.

The tribunal ruled that Simpson bravery had been ''appropriately recognised'' by a Mentioned-in-Dispatches award made to him and seven other members of the 3rd Field Ambulance in early May 1915. It concluded there were no grounds for him to receive a VC or other gallantry medal.

Tribunal chairman Alan Rose told a news conference last week that Simpson was ''a curiosity'' who, having chosen a donkey as his method of transport, was ''largely only able to bring lightly wounded men'' down from the front lines to the beach at Anzac Cove.

''The judgment by his peers, by his commanders at the time, was that he had displayed considerable bravery, but that it didn't reach the very high levels either for the award of a second or third-level award - a Distinguished Conduct Medal or a Military Medal - much less a Victoria Cross,'' he said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...donkey-vote-20130306-2flq3.html#ixzz2Mr1pVkFo

 

[Jack]

Oops ! Not only did he not get a backdated VC but now the Honors and Awards Panel are pretty much saying Simpson and his Donkey were over rated.

Goes to show, though, with medals as in life, most people get either more or less than they deserve. Simpson is now more myth than man, but I do think the Navy guys deserved a rethink. But of course, if the captain gets a gong, what about the crew? How many tail gunners in Lancasters got the DFM/DFC compared to pilots and navigators?

 

[TomB]

Goes to show, though, with medals as in life, most people get either more or less than they deserve. Simpson is now more myth than man, but I do think the Navy guys deserved a rethink. But of course, if the captain gets a gong, what about the crew? How many tail gunners in Lancasters got the DFM/DFC compared to pilots and navigators?

Certainly agree with the Distinguished Flying Medal but I reckon you would be pushing to get a DFC unless the Nav had to man the tail gun...could have happened...TomB

 

[Mitch]

I think this is what happens when people try to get retrospective awards recognitions etc it can work contrary to what people would have wanted.

When we meddle or, more apt ''medal'' with past decisions to try and get what we think should have been done many, many years ago with modern standards and hindsight we, IMO open a can of worms. Mind, all of those who actually stated that this chaps actions were rather hype and were savaged by some have now pretty much been vindicated with this enquiry.
Mitch

Oops ! Not only did he not get a backdated VC but now the Honors and Awards Panel are pretty much saying Simpson and his Donkey were over rated.

2 Page story about it in Sydney Morning Herald today and this from their web page.

An official inquiry has punctured the most popular legend of the Gallipoli campaign by declaring that Simpson - the man with the donkey - was not exceptionally brave.

A Defence Department committee last week found there were no grounds to justify the demand of a long-running public campaign that John Simpson Kirkpatrick be awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross.

But the committee went further to rule that the British-born private was no more gallant than scores of other stretcher bearers who transported wounded soldiers in the first weeks after the Gallipoli landing in April 1915.

''The tribunal found that Simpson's initiative and bravery were representative of all other stretcher bearers of the 3rd Field Ambulance,'' the report said.

Simpson - who enlisted under his middle name to hide the fact that he was a deserter from the merchant navy - spent several weeks ferrying wounded soldiers on a stray donkey before he was killed on May 19.

His story captured the imagination of war correspondents and the Australian public, which came to regard his selfless bravery as exemplifying the Anzac spirit. His deeds have since been celebrated in a series of books, films and plays.

But a year-long inquiry by the Defence Honours and Awards Appeals Tribunal heard evidence that it was impossible for Simpson to have rescued the more than 300 wounded soldiers whose lives he is widely credited with saving.

Instead, it was estimated that he ferried fewer than half that number before his death - all of them lightly wounded and none with life-threatening injuries.

The tribunal was told that there was no evidence in military archives to support the popular belief that Simpson had repeatedly ventured into no man's land under Turkish fire to rescue badly wounded soldiers.

One submission detailed how a number of witnesses, whose vivid accounts of Simpson's bravery have reinforced the legend of the man with the donkey, were not even at Gallipoli at the time.

The tribunal ruled that Simpson bravery had been ''appropriately recognised'' by a Mentioned-in-Dispatches award made to him and seven other members of the 3rd Field Ambulance in early May 1915. It concluded there were no grounds for him to receive a VC or other gallantry medal.

Tribunal chairman Alan Rose told a news conference last week that Simpson was ''a curiosity'' who, having chosen a donkey as his method of transport, was ''largely only able to bring lightly wounded men'' down from the front lines to the beach at Anzac Cove.

''The judgment by his peers, by his commanders at the time, was that he had displayed considerable bravery, but that it didn't reach the very high levels either for the award of a second or third-level award - a Distinguished Conduct Medal or a Military Medal - much less a Victoria Cross,'' he said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...donkey-vote-20130306-2flq3.html#ixzz2Mr1pVkFo