SdKfz 232 DAK (1 Viewer)

[Mitch]

Al...

we have had this discussion in PM and on open forum and, I agree with what you are saying with compatability but, this is at the heart of the issue here. CS made the decision to make the Tiger I much larger and explained it was to fit the figures which, everyone knows, or should know, are 1/28th give or take. What was problematic was the fact that Brian then tried to re-invent the wheel by saying the Tiger I was bang on 1/30th scale and went through quite a bit to show it was when clearly myself Frank and a few others showed it was not.

Now, expecting AFV's to be in 1/28th scale from then under the guise of bang on when I recieved Neils Jagdpanthers to repaint I was pleasantly surprised that they were not 1/28th but, more in line with other manufacturers and in keeping with what is true 1/30th scale (in the sense that we all know what that means and how one measures it from actual AFV measurements).

I bought a jagdpanther because of this and, would have done so with the RAD as the measurements posted showed it was closer to 1/30th scale than the Tiger scale.

What we were trying to say before brian said what he did with another poster is that whatever is said it does not fit the new RAD and Jagdpanther are in line with other makers sets at 1/30th and, unless Brian has changed figure scale his figures are still larger and, will be bigger than the AFV's he has released since or, at least the JP and RAD.

That was the point of discussion I, Michael and Blowtorch made with posted measurements.We are back to 1/30th scale AFV's and the same overscale figures which has been the way the hobby has gone and continues to be.. As you say, if the two were made compatible within each manufacturers house this issue would not come up but, larger figures started by K&C has been dominant and, the way that a few have choosen to follow. Sadly, its just round pegs in square holes with what I am hearing
Mitch

As Brad and Robin have this version, so do I and it is a fine job. I also have the same Porsche version that Robin has displayed, also a fine job. I like the CS product and as long as the manufacturers are going to produce 1/28 scale figures, I'm glad that someone is producing vehicles that look right with those figures. I want my Tigers and Panthers to project the massive size that is evident in wartime photos. To me, nothing is worse than having vehicles that are too small when figures are next to them. That means a 'correct' 1/30 scale vehicle is too small by definition, to a 1/28 figure. Why make figures or vehicles that are incorrectly sized to each other? The CS vehicles and figures look correct to each other and that is all that matters to me. -- Al

 

[jbonzo1]

Two peoples separated by a common scale!^&grin

 

[Vezzolf]

Love these thread drifts on holding manufacturers feet to the fire for exact 1/30 scale conversions. How come no one wants to put King and Country's and all the other manufacturers feet to the fire and demand realistic 1/30 figures? You're only addressing half the ultimate issue, i.e. that everything matches in size and looks correct.

Honestly, the only two manufacturers products I can think of that figures and vehicles match in scale are Collector's Showcase and First Legion. Seems to me Collector's Showcase made a smart move, since First Legion's vehicles only really work with their figures, whereas CS vehicles work with the figures from King and Country, Thomas Gunn, etc.

Edited to add: Dang, just realized I got sucked into a scale thread derail. Sorry about that. Move along, there is nothing to see here.:salute::

Excellent Point....Well said.

 

[Vezzolf]

Maddadicus,

No beef. If this is another scale discussion no problem. I just think that everyone of Collector's Showcase's tanks that have been labelled oversize (like the Panzer IV, Easy 8 Sherman, and Tiger) look way more realistic when their is a 60mm figure next to it than a "true" rivet counted 1/30 tank. I just want to see TCS continue making armor of whatever scale these tanks have been in, and don't want to see them downsize their armor to the size of King and Country.

I don't care in the least that my tanks measure/convert to 1/30 when the figures are 1/28. I care what it looks like when the tanks/figures are together on the shelf.

King and Country and other makers like Thomas Gunn have been very successful making 1/28 figures. In my opinion, I highly doubt this will ever change. Why would it? No one complains about the scale of these figures and tries to hold the manufacturers feet to the fire to make true 1/30 figures. No one complains, they just dismiss it with a "well, people are different heights." Sure people are different heights, but 1/30 math works for figures too, and I highly doubt that 99% of all German and Allied infantry was 7-8 feet tall.

Here's a WW2 pic, a true 1/30 Snow Tiger, and an "oversized" CS Winter Tiger.







I think the King and Country Tiger looks puny and the CS Tiger looks way better.

In the end I just like having the option to purchase armor that looks right with the figures. I don't want to see TCS move to making smaller armor like King and Country, Figarti, etc. I don't think I am alone in this. Plenty of company's make 1/30 tanks. TCS is the only one who consistenly makes armor that looks correct with figures. I just want to see this trend continue.

p.s. If anyone wants a true 1/30 King and Country Snow Tiger let me know, I am selling mine. Just the tank though, I am keeping the fingers to display in my CS Winter Tiger. :salute::

Well Said....K/C figures are NOT 1:30th....CS is doing the right thing by oversizing their AFV's since they are trying to be compatible with K/C figures which are 1:28th.....K/C makes 1:30th scale AFV's but 1:28th scale figures^&confuse^&confuse....Maybe you folks are holding the wrong manufacturers feet to the fire{sm4}

 

[Mitch]

Frank..

This has nothing to do with K&C mate. CS figures are also 1/28th and, have always been overscale. The whole issue is as you say the discussion of overscaling AFV's to fit with the larger figures. If you want to do this then fine then, there is compatability with, figures from K&C and his own CS figures. That my friend is not what he is doing he is overscaling AFV's the Tiger I and saying its dead on 1/30th and, that everything else falls into line with this. It does not and the scale does not work.

Enlarge your AFV's but, say that they are now no longer 1/30th but, are larger which, we know they are and I could list a number of AFV's from CS which are 1/30th and 1/28th since this new move. the crux is that there is no consistancy really as we have shown with the Jagdpanther and the RAD in these discussions. The figures have stayed at 1/28th but, the AFV's have changed again. That is why I bought the jagdpanther as it was more in keeping with my K&C sets not, because it was as I expected it would be in line with the whatever scale Tiger I.

K&C can't get the blame for Brian's conversion and scale issues which, many of us long term CS collectors know are ever present and we are still talking about them now. why? not because we want to dish CS but, because they are present from the manufacturer. If scale does not bother you then you buy and enjoy CS for what they are if, as it does with some (including FL buyers who like the compatibility) then we shjould be able to discuss an important issue about one manufacturer without, it being about anyone else but CS.

Nobody forced CS to follow and do larger figures but, they choose to do and, once you have the AFV's at 1/30th which they did to gain compatability you reduce the figure size not, play around with the size of AFV's which, are set in stone and not, or should not, be able to be misconstrued.
Mitch

Well Said....K/C figures are NOT 1:30th....CS is doing the right thing by oversizing their AFV's since they are trying to be compatible with K/C figures which are 1:28th.....K/C makes 1:30th scale AFV's but 1:28th scale figures^&confuse^&confuse....Maybe you folks are holding the wrong manufacturers feet to the fire{sm4}

 

[Vezzolf]

Frank..

This has nothing to do with K&C mate. CS figures are also 1/28th and, have always been overscale. The whole issue is as you say the discussion of overscaling AFV's to fit with the larger figures. If you want to do this then fine then, there is compatability with, figures from K&C and his own CS figures. That my friend is not what he is doing he is overscaling AFV's the Tiger I and saying its dead on 1/30th and, that everything else falls into line with this. It does not and the scale does not work.

Enlarge your AFV's but, say that they are now no longer 1/30th but, are larger which, we know they are and I could list a number of AFV's from CS which are 1/30th and 1/28th since this new move. the crux is that there is no consistancy really as we have shown with the Jagdpanther and the RAD in these discussions. The figures have stayed at 1/28th but, the AFV's have changed again. That is why I bought the jagdpanther as it was more in keeping with my K&C sets not, because it was as I expected it would be in line with the whatever scale Tiger I.

K&C can't get the blame for Brian's conversion and scale issues which, many of us long term CS collectors know are ever present and we are still talking about them now. why? not because we want to dish CS but, because they are present from the manufacturer. If scale does not bother you then you buy and enjoy CS for what they are if, as it does with some (including FL buyers who like the compatibility) then we shjould be able to discuss an important issue about one manufacturer without, it being about anyone else but CS.

Nobody forced CS to follow and do larger figures but, they choose to do and, once you have the AFV's at 1/30th which they did to gain compatability you reduce the figure size not, play around with the size of AFV's which, are set in stone and not, or should not, be able to be misconstrued.
Mitch

Actually Mitch, It has alot to do with K/C since that is why CS started producing 1:28th scale AFV's.....CS 1:28th scale AFV's are compatible with K/C figures also 1:28th scale....Which should make the K/C crowd happy^&confuse^&confuse.......Like I said at least CS is trying to be consistent with what they are trying to match.... which is more then can be said for K/C figures and AFV's.......If you guys want 1:30 compatibility.... collect FL or Figarti....No problems with compatiblility for the most part....I stand by my previous post....At least CS is trying to address the incompatibility of K/C Figures and AFV's

 

[Mitch]

Frank...

Still not sure that I can see the blame at K&C's door here. CS had the opportunity should they ahve wished, like, FL did and do their figures for WWII at least smaller than the main 1/30th manufacturers. CS when they started and, I have the sets in LAH were huge as were all their airborne and SS sets so, it certainly looks, historically that CS started doing things their own way and style from day one. They could have easily done their figures to be immediately compatable with K&C but, did not really until the DAK series and, even then the Panzer I and kett were huge and over scaled. The 88MM gun was better in that range and worked with K&C.

As I said compatability is a good thing but, this hobby has been around a while with larger figures and, its only recently that this issue has been raised where a manufacturer decides to do something about it albeit (the reason for the debate) skewed. Enlarging the AFV's addresses compatability for sure, but, what I am saying and, michael and a few others is that that is OK but, don't try and then say that when you do that its hit the nail on the head and is bang on 1/30th according to what reference you stand by and, then tell collectors etc they do not know as much as manufacturers.

But, lets take for granted that they did do that with the tiger I (even though everyone who has it has commented upon it being overscaled as a stand alone piece with other like HB and K&C tigers) the point was, that this overscale to be compatable with the larger figures and, thats CS's figures he is doing it for not, K&C compatability, has not stayed consistant at all when you look at the scale and size of the jagdpanther and RAD that we were discussing. They remain 1/30th while CS figures remain right now 1/28th.

So, what we have said from the beginning is that we have to address each and every CS set to see whether he is staying with the comments and scale of the tiger I or, some of the sets that came before and after that or, from the panzers and panthers which, we are told are bang on correct.

If we are bringing others in most of K&C's releases are 1/30th or, as close as give a **** since the tunisian tiger.

Sorry, but, this time for me K&C cannot take the blame for the way a manufacturer has decided to deal with scale.
Mitch

 

[Vezzolf]

Frank...

Still not sure that I can see the blame at K&C's door here. CS had the opportunity should they ahve wished, like, FL did and do their figures for WWII at least smaller than the main 1/30th manufacturers. CS when they started and, I have the sets in LAH were huge as were all their airborne and SS sets so, it certainly looks, historically that CS started doing things their own way and style from day one. They could have easily done their figures to be immediately compatable with K&C but, did not really until the DAK series and, even then the Panzer I and kett were huge and over scaled. The 88MM gun was better in that range and worked with K&C.

As I said compatability is a good thing but, this hobby has been around a while with larger figures and, its only recently that this issue has been raised where a manufacturer decides to do something about it albeit (the reason for the debate) skewed. Enlarging the AFV's addresses compatability for sure, but, what I am saying and, michael and a few others is that that is OK but, don't try and then say that when you do that its hit the nail on the head and is bang on 1/30th according to what reference you stand by and, then tell collectors etc they do not know as much as manufacturers.

But, lets take for granted that they did do that with the tiger I (even though everyone who has it has commented upon it being overscaled as a stand alone piece with other like HB and K&C tigers) the point was, that this overscale to be compatable with the larger figures and, thats CS's figures he is doing it for not, K&C compatability, has not stayed consistant at all when you look at the scale and size of the jagdpanther and RAD that we were discussing. They remain 1/30th while CS figures remain right now 1/28th.

So, what we have said from the beginning is that we have to address each and every CS set to see whether he is staying with the comments and scale of the tiger I or, some of the sets that came before and after that or, from the panzers and panthers which, we are told are bang on correct.

If we are bringing others in most of K&C's releases are 1/30th or, as close as give a **** since the tunisian tiger.

Sorry, but, this time for me K&C cannot take the blame for the way a manufacturer has decided to deal with scale.
Mitch

Well it would seem that the only manufacturer that has it right is First Legion WWII^&cool....FL Figures are in perfect balance and accurate scale with FL AFV's.....Most other manufacturers can't get it right....Too Big{sm4}{sm4}....Too Small{sm4}{sm4}.....Oh well that's why I collect FL and Figarti.:wink2:

 

[chocolate mousse]

Hunter, I complain. So that makes 3 of us now.

 

[TomNT]

Just love your product Brian, please keep them coming, cheers, Robin.

Love your motor pool Robin! {bravo}}

Tom

 

[Mitch]

Frank...

Thast may be the case with WWII but, lets not let it slipby that FL have played around with scale and have varying sizes in their different ranges so, they are also not true 1/30th scale across the board. However, as you say, they have compatability with WWII.

I do see why Brian is trying to make them compatable but, not the way he is selling it and, this is not an attack on CS who do very nice products and, I have been one who has said this many times so, the Rah Rah and support in this debate is not needed IMO. The product detail etc was never raised just the scale issues.

it comes down to the fact that a few moan about size of figures with AFV's and some genuinly don't like the standard large figures with the 1/30th scale AFV's but, either make the figures to match i.e make them 1/30th or, increase the size of AFV's and say that they are being made in 1/28th scale to be compatable just don't try and state that they are one thing when they are not and, expect people to buy into that
Mitch

Well it would seem that the only manufacturer that has it right is First Legion WWII^&cool....FL Figures are in perfect balance and accurate scale with FL AFV's.....Most other manufacturers can't get it right....Too Big{sm4}{sm4}....Too Small{sm4}{sm4}.....Oh well that's why I collect FL and Figarti.:wink2:

 

[The Military Workshop]

Well it would seem that the only manufacturer that has it right is First Legion WWII^&cool....FL Figures are in perfect balance and accurate scale with FL AFV's.....Most other manufacturers can't get it right....Too Big{sm4}{sm4}....Too Small{sm4}{sm4}.....Oh well that's why I collect FL and Figarti.:wink2:

Frank,
You raise an interesting point about scale. I have no idea about scale and would not challenge Brian or Mitch on such issues. I go on how a series looks together and even better if it fits in with another brands same subject. However it is amusing that you suggest any error by CS on scale is due to K&C^&confuse. I think you will find all brands are not without fault when it comes to scale amongst their own products. In the case of FL, which you brought into this thread, somebody recently posted an image of a few of their figures from different series and there were obvious differences in the scale of the figures (the Crusaders appeared bigger so perhaps that is K&C's fault as FL might have been trying to be similar in size to K&C). I think you will find FL has packaged their Nap figures in boxes which clearly indicated the figure was 54mm (the ones I have seen were over 3 years old) but their web page indicates all their figures are 60mm (the recent photo I saw suggests otherwise). ''Too big, too small{sm4}{sm4}'' applies to FL as well.
Regards
Brett

 

[Vezzolf]

Frank...

Thast may be the case with WWII but, lets not let it slipby that FL have played around with scale and have varying sizes in their different ranges so, they are also not true 1/30th scale across the board. However, as you say, they have compatability with WWII.

I do see why Brian is trying to make them compatable but, not the way he is selling it and, this is not an attack on CS who do very nice products and, I have been one who has said this many times so, the Rah Rah and support in this debate is not needed IMO. The product detail etc was never raised just the scale issues.

it comes down to the fact that a few moan about size of figures with AFV's and some genuinly don't like the standard large figures with the 1/30th scale AFV's but, either make the figures to match i.e make them 1/30th or, increase the size of AFV's and say that they are being made in 1/28th scale to be compatable just don't try and state that they are one thing when they are not and, expect people to buy into that
Mitch

Mitch, I agree that the scale produced should be what is clearly printed on the box....i.e. what the collector is exspecting.... In that regard I agree with you completely.....But I think that "many manufacturers" call themselves 1:30th scale and they clearly are not...this includes K/C the former industry leader who was AFV 1:32 with figures 1:28th......Now K/C is 1:30th AFV and still 1:28th figures......Thus their figures are too large with their AFV's........I think that CS and Brian were attempting to try to match AFV's to existing figures (including their own which are oversized 1:28th)....Too much confusion in this hobby and no set standard....In my experience only FL has come close to consistency of scale within their own product line for the series in question WWII....Likely because they are not interested in being a clone of anyone or particularly interested in matching other manufacturers products.....I think what we all want is for manufacturers to at least "BE CONSISTENT" within the product range Best Regards Frank

 

[Mitch]

guys...

With the greatest of respect apart from a couple of stupid attempts at sarcasm this thread, important as it is, has stayed within topic. Its not about, hopefully, getting of track and talking about K&C and FL. Frank raised the valid points about where K&C started from and where they are now in terms of AFV's and figures. This as being the only manufacturer really for a long time made them the dominant force in the industry its fair to say. Hopefully, as this was about scale and scale alone we can keep it from turning into this desperate need to try and say how good one is over the other and, the need to defend again another manufacturer from any attack real or percieved.

Compatability is the key and while I am not bothered really about larger figures I am bothered that the AFV's be 1/30th scale if thats what they are said to be. No obfuscation no fancy math just 1/30th.
Mitch

 

[maddadicus]

Mitch, I agree that the scale produced should be what is clearly printed on the box....i.e. what the collector is exspecting.... In that regard I agree with you completely.....But I think that "many manufacturers" call themselves 1:30th scale and they clearly are not...this includes K/C the former industry leader who was AFV 1:32 with figures 1:28th......Now K/C is 1:30th AFV and still 1:28th figures......Thus their figures are too large with their AFV's........I think that CS and Brian were attempting to try to match AFV's to existing figures (including their own which are oversized 1:28th)....Too much confusion in this hobby and no set standard....In my experience only FL has come close to consistency of scale within their own product line for the series in question WWII....Likely because they are not interested in being a clone of anyone or particularly interested in matching other manufacturers products.....I think what we all want is for manufacturers to at least "BE CONSISTENT" within the product range Best Regards Frank

I guess that you have sales numbers to support your claim that K/C is the former leader. If not, you are once again guilty of hit and run K/C bashing. Maybe someday you will actually show photos of your collection. But my feeling is that you do not buy anything, but merely post to get attention for being contrary.......Regards, Michael

 

[waynepoo]

I guess that you have sales numbers to support your claim that K/C is the former leader. If not, you are once again guilty of hit and run K/C bashing. Maybe someday you will actually show photos of your collection. But my feeling is that you do not buy anything, but merely post to get attention for being contrary.......Regards, Michael

Well said.
Wayne.

 

[TomNT]

I guess that you have sales numbers to support your claim that K/C is the former leader. If not, you are once again guilty of hit and run K/C bashing. Maybe someday you will actually show photos of your collection. But my feeling is that you do not buy anything, but merely post to get attention for being contrary.......Regards, Michael

Well said.
Wayne.

Yeah, I agree to, well said Michael.

Tom

 

[uksubs]

Well for me I've stopped buying Cs as the on going problem of there armour coming broken or poorly made that it fall apart , as for there figures there to big and won' t work with K&C or any other company . I find it shocking that Brain has not fix the on going problem of item coming broken

 

[Vezzolf]

I guess that you have sales numbers to support your claim that K/C is the former leader. If not, you are once again guilty of hit and run K/C bashing. Maybe someday you will actually show photos of your collection. But my feeling is that you do not buy anything, but merely post to get attention for being contrary.......Regards, Michael

Not that it's any of your business Maddadicus......But...I do buy a significant amount of FL products as well as Figarti..... probably alot more then you^&grin^&grin.... I am very selective in my purchases:wink2:..... you sir are not privy to photos of my collection:tongue:.....As far as sales numbers for K/C I am not privy to those numbers....BUT no doubt..... "the times they are a changing".... and K/C no longer has a capitive audience....Point is we as collectors need an industry standard in regards to scale and CS is "not the only company" who has been guilty of inconsistency in regards to scale and quality control .....Regards and Salutations^&grin

 

[Vezzolf]

Mitch,

I respect your argument and firmly agree that there are many who agree with you. I just have a 180 opposite opinion than you on some of these issues. As such, from the bias of my perspective (liking armor that looks right with figures) I look at the same data and reach different conclusions. For example:



Disagree. Making smaller figures is only one of two possible solutions. The other is to make larger armor. CS did this with the newer Tiger but it has met with resistance and criticism from yourself and others. I agree with you that making smaller figures is unlikely to happen, and am sad that the continuation of larger armor may be abandoned.



Honestly, I think Brian has said this, if in a round about and abstract way. Repeatedly he has said that he was making vehicles to match the figures. He has numerous times referred to this as "right sized" armor. I think the whole reason Brian refuses to flatly state the vehicles are 1/28 or 1/29 is purely business driven. Every other manufacturer says their products are 1/30 even when they are not (i.e. King and Country, Thomas Gunn, Figarti, etc. figures). How many potential sales would CS lose to new buyers looking at a 1/28 label on the box and think:

"1/28? Hmmmm, this must not work with my 1/30 scale King and Country figures."

When in fact they would look great and actually be the exact same scale.



Why? King and Country patently mis-advertises their figures as 1/30 scale. By your own admission they are 1/28 or so. Why does CS have to be so exact in scale pronouncements while King and Country gets a pass on all their figures being out of scale. Seems like a double standard to hammer CS while giving King and Country a pass

Completely Logical Arguement....Well Said{bravo}}.....If your figures are to remain 1:28th scale then AFV's should be 1:28th....If you claim to be 1:30th then be 1:30th....BE CONSISTENT within the range in question.