September Releases - The Figures! (1 Viewer)

[Vicknor]

There is some insanity on this thread.

Personally, is like to see some Praetorian Guard in tutus and Miffy t-shirts so that they don't look like any one else's.

Unfortunately, there is a pretty well established school of thought about what they looked like and so I'll just have to buy those ones.

 

[spartan71]

... Okay. So what ever Thomas Gunn pieces are made, make sure they do not copy anything in what Aeroart makes? The colors, stripes, polka dots, smears, streaks, etc. Make sure it does not look anything close to Aeroart? And if it does do not make it? Is that what should happen? ....... That is ludicrous... Everything worth while gets imitated in one shape or form, it's a fact of true life.....
I certainly hope Thomas Gunn, keeps making every thing that they think off.... How ever close, it might look to another manufacturer... It kinda benefits us collectors... Buy what you like, and if something irks you. Don't. Simple.

 

[Donar]

Those are big words: insane and ludicrous.....
The only point I was making is that I love variety and creativity in miniatures.
Spartan71 says “Everything worthwhile gets imitated in one shape or form, it's a fact of true life.....”
For me that is simply not enough to keep me going on in this hobby.
And I don’t buy that there is not much to choose from how (for instance) praetorian guards look like. There is in fact a lot to choose from. See for example all those great images on the internet of praetorian guards, that will make with no doubt beautiful miniatures....

There is simply more to choose from than this....

 

[spartan71]

...another point too, is cohesiveness. Almost everyone will ask if all the pieces from different manufacturers, will fit together, you can not have different hues of blues\ colors across the line, and if standing ready they have the same pose .. I will not get into the height...because differnt people different height

 

[spartan71]

And an Aeroart piece will fit nicely with a Thomas Gunn figures when they are the same hue. Except that it costs about twice the TG piece.

 

[joesgis]

... Okay. So what ever Thomas Gunn pieces are made, make sure they do not copy anything in what Aeroart makes? The colors, stripes, polka dots, smears, streaks, etc. Make sure it does not look anything close to Aeroart? And if it does do not make it? Is that what should happen? ....... That is ludicrous... Everything worth while gets imitated in one shape or form, it's a fact of true life.....
I certainly hope Thomas Gunn, keeps making every thing that they think off.... How ever close, it might look to another manufacturer... It kinda benefits us collectors... Buy what you like, and if something irks you. Don't. Simple.

So in your own words: "Okay. So what ever Thomas Gunn pieces are made, make sure they do not copy anything in what Aeroart makes"? The implication of your stance being manufacturer's copying (toy use your word) each other is encouraged? Now that is what I call ludicrous, spartan71.

Then you go onto to say "Everything worth while gets imitated in one shape or form, it's a fact of true life....."
It doesn't look like mere imitation to me. It looks like the sculptor worked directly from an Aeroart pieces in the examples provided, and then made a few tweeks here and there (like moving a helmet to the opposite arm, changing the weapon, or appendage orientation) all of which only makes it appear even more obvious.
It's just lazy and unimaginative to do this, especially with the sculpting talent TG has in their ranks. I mean look at the Praetorian's greaves....the TG version even has the scorpions sculpted into them just like the Aeroart one (not only an indication that TG's sculptors are good but also that the sculpt appears to be based on the Aeroart precursor).
You seem to be saying it's ok for TG to do this because "it kinda benefits us collectors". Seems like a narrow, unbalanced pov to me.
Joe

 

[spartan71]

... so in your words too. if Aeroart has a pose, that it is locked up. do not make it?... even if has a variation of the pack is lowered a little bit or anything else, do not make it(I think you can only pose it in so many ways, before it resembles something that has been made already)
. and with the Scorpion. I am assuming that no praetorian or roman Legion has ever had it? So in your terms do not copy anything if it already has been made. But with that thinking ,any similarities or inspirations that may be in any book should not be made, because Osprey or other books has published that basically has claim to it because they are the first ones that came out with it, so do not copy... then it will be a very slim offerings isn't it.
I think your fear is that TG made a piece that looks/ resembles the Aeroart piece. you basically have a piece that cost twice the price, and you hate it. correct me if I am wrong. you hate the idea that for the price of 10 Aeroart pieces that you have, I will have 18 to 20 pieces. that if TG keeps making these pieces, there is a better chance of me having a roman legion sooner, than you with your Aeroart.
Of course, with the TG team coming out with all of the Pieces first, Eventually some Aeroart pieces would resemble the TG ones.... And I wonder if you will pause then, and say this looks like The TG pieces, and have a problem with it....
Keep Buying The Aeroart pieces solely please, TG only makes so many of their pieces, And you sticking with solely Aeroart pieces. It will be less completion, in getting the TG pieces....

 

[katana]

Given the limited source materials for ancient figures i.e. Greeks and Romans, I would be very surprised if similar figures were not produced by the various Toy soldier companies. The fact that TG is using Russian painters for their master figures would account for the similar color palate IMO.

The similarity of the TG Elephant to the Russian models is a different matter as the figures are virtually identical; which suggests they were sourced from Russia!

 

[thanasis67]

Dear All

I believe that this debate is pointless and unfair for T.Gunn who made hundreds of figures up to now and we have stuck education on a marching Roman. Maybe Aeroart imitated Andrea Miniatures figure from the 80's still in production.
As we all noticed sometimes manufactures made similar poses or figures inspired from movies or t.v. shows. Is this inspiration or imitation? Check please the photos that I posted here. If Scale 75 made its figures before K&C , are we going to condemn K&C?

 

[thanasis67]

Dear All

I believe that this debate is pointless and unfair for T.Gunn who made hundreds of figures up to now and we have stuck on a marching Roman. Maybe Aeroart imitated Andrea Miniatures figure from the 80's still in production.
As we all noticed sometimes manufactures made similar poses or figures inspired from movies or t.v. shows. Is this inspiration or imitation? Check please the photos that I posted here. If Scale 75 made its figures before K&C , are we going to condemn K&C? View attachment 219589View attachment 219590

 

[Nelson1976]

Dear All

I believe that this debate is pointless and unfair for T.Gunn who made hundreds of figures up to now and we have stuck on a marching Roman. Maybe Aeroart imitated Andrea Miniatures figure from the 80's still in production.
As we all noticed sometimes manufactures made similar poses or figures inspired from movies or t.v. shows. Is this inspiration or imitation? Check please the photos that I posted here. If Scale 75 made its figures before K&C , are we going to condemn K&C? View attachment 219589View attachment 219590

As a long time collector of many manufacturers I have to say that certain comments on this thread have been somewhat lose and unnnecessary - all the manufacturers do a really excellent job, sometimes producing highly original themes and at other times constrained by the nature of the subject, including actual uniforms, heraldry and shield design. Exactly how many ways can you depict a marching Marius Mule? A kneeling, firing guardsman? A firing archer of any description?

The point being that our colleague Thanasis67 hits the nail on the head here about the nature of manufacture - inspiration has come from all quarters for all designers including each other. The suggestion that some of TG's Roman figutes are somewhat similar to those manufactured by others in the past can be applied to all makers in almost any of their series if you try hard enough.

It is not easy for the like of TG, K&C, First Legion etc to do what they do at the consistently high standards we have all come to expect and anticipate, and wherever possible they should be commended not castigated for their efforts.

I personally think that if you don't like what you see, simply don't purchase - one man's vinegar is another man's wine as they say, but at the same time I also feel very grateful for everything that's on offer in what is a golden age for toy soldier collecting.

 

[sfarrelly]

well said and completely agree!

 

[katana]

Conte's extensive Roman line from the 1990's certainly covered all the possible poses we see today from K&C, TG, TCS, FL and Aeroart. Are they copies of the Conte prototypes? No since Roman figures have been made by many prior manufacturers i.e. Elastolin, Bluebox Toys, Forces of Valor, Britains etc. The shield markings and colors are determined from historical prototypes and as has been stated, Osprey is a primary source of this information. The same argument applies to any accurate toy soldier figures i.e. US Marines, Medieval Knights, Civil War Infantry etc. Many prior art figures exist and patents or copyrights do not apply as historical information is public domain free for use by anyone.

A Tiger I tank by K&C, TCS, Figarti or FL is not a copy of another companies product; but a copy in miniature of an actual WWII German AFV!

 

[Guest1]

Conte's extensive Roman line from the 1990's certainly covered all the possible poses we see today from K&C, TG, TCS, FL and Aeroart. Are they copies of the Conte prototypes? No since Roman figures have been made by many prior manufacturers i.e. Elastolin, Bluebox Toys, Forces of Valor, Britains etc. The shield markings and colors are determined from historical prototypes and as has been stated, Osprey is a primary source of this information. The same argument applies to any accurate toy soldier figures i.e. US Marines, Medieval Knights, Civil War Infantry etc. Many prior art figures exist and patents or copyrights do not apply as historical information is public domain free for use by anyone.

A Tiger I tank by K&C, TCS, Figarti or FL is not a copy of another companies product; but a copy in miniature of an actual WWII German AFV!

Well said Katana.

 

[spartan71]

Dear All

I believe that this debate is pointless and unfair for T.Gunn who made hundreds of figures up to now and we have stuck education on a marching Roman. Maybe Aeroart imitated Andrea Miniatures figure from the 80's still in production.
As we all noticed sometimes manufactures made similar poses or figures inspired from movies or t.v. shows. Is this inspiration or imitation? Check please the photos that I posted here. If Scale 75 made its figures before K&C , are we going to condemn K&C? View attachment 219589View attachment 219590

As a long time collector of many manufacturers I have to say that certain comments on this thread have been somewhat lose and unnnecessary - all the manufacturers do a really excellent job, sometimes producing highly original themes and at other times constrained by the nature of the subject, including actual uniforms, heraldry and shield design. Exactly how many ways can you depict a marching Marius Mule? A kneeling, firing guardsman? A firing archer of any description?

The point being that our colleague Thanasis67 hits the nail on the head here about the nature of manufacture - inspiration has come from all quarters for all designers including each other. The suggestion that some of TG's Roman figutes are somewhat similar to those manufactured by others in the past can be applied to all makers in almost any of their series if you try hard enough.

It is not easy for the like of TG, K&C, First Legion etc to do what they do at the consistently high standards we have all come to expect and anticipate, and wherever possible they should be commended not castigated for their efforts.

I personally think that if you don't like what you see, simply don't purchase - one man's vinegar is another man's wine as they say, but at the same time I also feel very grateful for everything that's on offer in what is a golden age for toy soldier collecting.

Conte's extensive Roman line from the 1990's certainly covered all the possible poses we see today from K&C, TG, TCS, FL and Aeroart. Are they copies of the Conte prototypes? No since Roman figures have been made by many prior manufacturers i.e. Elastolin, Bluebox Toys, Forces of Valor, Britains etc. The shield markings and colors are determined from historical prototypes and as has been stated, Osprey is a primary source of this information. The same argument applies to any accurate toy soldier figures i.e. US Marines, Medieval Knights, Civil War Infantry etc. Many prior art figures exist and patents or copyrights do not apply as historical information is public domain free for use by anyone.

A Tiger I tank by K&C, TCS, Figarti or FL is not a copy of another companies product; but a copy in miniature of an actual WWII German AFV!

Very well said Gentlemen!!! ......

 

[Currahee Chris]

Hello everyone!

Joe- thank you for energizing this thread with your insight. I know you have an incredible AA collection and I believe your observation has merit based on what I have seen in your collection over the years.

I have several hundred Roman and Greek figures in my collection from all major manufacturers who produce figures of the ancients. Additionally, I have a full suit of Roman Lorica Segmentata, I am a martial artist and of course, did my time in the military. Looking at figures who represent basic fighting poses, well, there are only so many poses that can be produced before the figure becomes "Technically Inaccurate"- akin to historically inaccurate but the pose is so far off from what would be combat practical to be "technically inaccurate"- in many ways, there are really only 8 basic fighting poses that can be replicated- strike right/left high, strike right left horizontally, strike right left low, strike directly overhead, thrust forward. Then there are the defensive positions to counter those move- at the end of the day, the human body can only do so many things so the law of averages has to come into play and create visual similarities to certain collectors.

I tend to agree with TGM on this- saying their figures are on par/ similar to AA is quite the compliment. I can remember not so long ago they used to be seen as a King and Country alternative. So from that standpoint, they appear to have made leaps and strides in figure creation.

Sword and Sandals figures only offer so many poses- unlike combat with weapons like rifles. The battles were close and dirty- their tactics were brutal, functional and very effective. So much so that they generally imitated each other- ie Roman Testudo a derivative of the Greek Phalanx and so forth. Again, that was the nature of their warfare and as a function, their tactics and equipment.

Personally, I feel AA has gotten kind of lazy of the years with their poses. On the opposite, I think TGM has tried to do some very unique poses- I recently picked up a I Minerva figure who was deflecting arrows with his shield.

 

[arnhem44mad]

This made for some great reading!

Regardless of copying (and I'm not for a second suggesting they TG are or do or did) I still love T's products as they are amazing for the price!

Please continue your excellent service TG!!

Scott

 

[joesgis]

... so in your words too. if Aeroart has a pose, that it is locked up. do not make it?... even if has a variation of the pack is lowered a little bit or anything else, do not make it(I think you can only pose it in so many ways, before it resembles something that has been made already)
. and with the Scorpion. I am assuming that no praetorian or roman Legion has ever had it? So in your terms do not copy anything if it already has been made. But with that thinking ,any similarities or inspirations that may be in any book should not be made, because Osprey or other books has published that basically has claim to it because they are the first ones that came out with it, so do not copy... then it will be a very slim offerings isn't it.
I think your fear is that TG made a piece that looks/ resembles the Aeroart piece. you basically have a piece that cost twice the price, and you hate it. correct me if I am wrong. you hate the idea that for the price of 10 Aeroart pieces that you have, I will have 18 to 20 pieces. that if TG keeps making these pieces, there is a better chance of me having a roman legion sooner, than you with your Aeroart.
Of course, with the TG team coming out with all of the Pieces first, Eventually some Aeroart pieces would resemble the TG ones.... And I wonder if you will pause then, and say this looks like The TG pieces, and have a problem with it....
Keep Buying The Aeroart pieces solely please, TG only makes so many of their pieces, And you sticking with solely Aeroart pieces. It will be less completion, in getting the TG pieces....

I'm not talking simply about similar poses here. I'm referring to intricate detailing clearly "inspired" by Aeroart figure features. I think it is blatantly obvious. I think you lack objectivity and are wearing TG tinted sunglasses. Your implication that a future Aeroart figure may follow a TG one in a way that is analogous is a poor hypothetical argument that doesn't hold up well. It just wouldn't happen, not in this kind of way.

Ouch! Forgive me for my valid line of questioning. lol So now I'm not allowed to buy TG anymore? Sorry, but as always I will continue to buy TG pieces that appeal to me as I do w/ FL, JJD, & K & C. I think overall TG makes a fine product. I find it puzzling why they are doing what they are doing.

And no, I do not hate the idea that you have more TG than I have Aeroart. C'mon man, that's just silly.

Joe

 

[joesgis]

Conte's extensive Roman line from the 1990's certainly covered all the possible poses we see today from K&C, TG, TCS, FL and Aeroart. Are they copies of the Conte prototypes? No since Roman figures have been made by many prior manufacturers i.e. Elastolin, Bluebox Toys, Forces of Valor, Britains etc. The shield markings and colors are determined from historical prototypes and as has been stated, Osprey is a primary source of this information. The same argument applies to any accurate toy soldier figures i.e. US Marines, Medieval Knights, Civil War Infantry etc. Many prior art figures exist and patents or copyrights do not apply as historical information is public domain free for use by anyone.

A Tiger I tank by K&C, TCS, Figarti or FL is not a copy of another companies product; but a copy in miniature of an actual WWII German AFV!

Katana,

I agree with all you have said, but again I'm not simply talking about a matter of similar poses.

Joe

 

[joesgis]

Hello everyone!

Joe- thank you for energizing this thread with your insight. I know you have an incredible AA collection and I believe your observation has merit based on what I have seen in your collection over the years.

I have several hundred Roman and Greek figures in my collection from all major manufacturers who produce figures of the ancients. Additionally, I have a full suit of Roman Lorica Segmentata, I am a martial artist and of course, did my time in the military. Looking at figures who represent basic fighting poses, well, there are only so many poses that can be produced before the figure becomes "Technically Inaccurate"- akin to historically inaccurate but the pose is so far off from what would be combat practical to be "technically inaccurate"- in many ways, there are really only 8 basic fighting poses that can be replicated- strike right/left high, strike right left horizontally, strike right left low, strike directly overhead, thrust forward. Then there are the defensive positions to counter those move- at the end of the day, the human body can only do so many things so the law of averages has to come into play and create visual similarities to certain collectors.

I tend to agree with TGM on this- saying their figures are on par/ similar to AA is quite the compliment. I can remember not so long ago they used to be seen as a King and Country alternative. So from that standpoint, they appear to have made leaps and strides in figure creation.

Sword and Sandals figures only offer so many poses- unlike combat with weapons like rifles. The battles were close and dirty- their tactics were brutal, functional and very effective. So much so that they generally imitated each other- ie Roman Testudo a derivative of the Greek Phalanx and so forth. Again, that was the nature of their warfare and as a function, their tactics and equipment.

Personally, I feel AA has gotten kind of lazy of the years with their poses. On the opposite, I think TGM has tried to do some very unique poses- I recently picked up a I Minerva figure who was deflecting arrows with his shield.

Hi Chris,

Good to hear from you and thanks for adding to the discussion. I agree about TG's overall quality....I think their figures have been nice since day one and are even better now. They really do make a nice figure approaching the level of FL quality. My only beef is with the specific cases that they are so closely mimicking Aeroart figures, and not just in pose alone. It has been a topic of discussion among other Russian figure collectors outside of this forum. Just look at the standing figure on the back of TG's new chariot....the figure is obviously modeled on the charioteer of Aeroart's 5171 Celt chariot...look at the head of the figure. Why are TG's talented sculptors using Aeoart so closely as a template in the examples I showed? I think Treefrog would have deleted this thread long ago if my claim didn't hold some validity.

Joe