September Releases - The Figures! (2 Viewers)

[cantinetozzo]

Dear All
Welcome to Septembers figure release after a much deserved holiday – we are back!

Starting off with the Spartans and their Allies, there are 3 more additions as follows:

SPA016 Locrian musician rallies his comrades, comes in 3 shield versions consisting of 4 wings on red background (E version shield on label) another version with a Minotaur Head on shield (B version shield on label) and last but not least a classical rendition of a Mermaid rescuing a sailor (C version shield on box)

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SPA017 To accompany our musician we have a superb looking Spartan officer directing his troops, comes with 3 shield variants comprising Spartan Lambda (A version shield), Zeus with young girl (Q version shield label on box) and finally Mermaid with sailor (R version shield on box label)

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Thanks to TG for the Locrian figures because actually i am from..Locri! Locri (in greek Lokroi) is a little town in southern Italy (that is Calabria) that was founded about 2700 yrs ago from settlers coming from one of both of the 2 Lokrides of Greece ..obviously the figures are from the greek Lokrides but i'm pretty sure that the italic Locridians were identical to the greek ones..the link with the "metropolis" (the fatherland) rarely was severed.

 

[OzDigger]

Hi Chris,

Good to hear from you and thanks for adding to the discussion. I agree about TG's overall quality....I think their figures have been nice since day one and are even better now. They really do make a nice figure approaching the level of FL quality. My only beef is with the specific cases that they are so closely mimicking Aeroart figures, and not just in pose alone. It has been a topic of discussion among other Russian figure collectors outside of this forum. Just look at the standing figure on the back of TG's new chariot....the figure is obviously modeled on the charioteer of Aeroart's 5171 Celt chariot...look at the head of the figure. Why are TG's talented sculptors using Aeoart so closely as a template in the examples I showed? I think Treefrog would have deleted this thread long ago if my claim didn't hold some validity.

Joe

Joe, I wouldn't place to much merit in the fact that Treefrog haven't deleted this thread. Treefrog may or may not agree with your assertions, threads are most often deleted when the discussions get to personal. That said, I think there is some merit in what you say, some of the poses do look similar to Aeroart etc. However I suggest they differ enough as not to be considered as being a copy as far as any copyright laws are concerned.

 

[katana]

TG has stated they use Russian painters to paint their Master Figures; why would they not also use Russian sculptors for some figures? The Elephant is a case in point, virtually identical to a Russian prototype from RV as shown in previous photos and comments. Aero Art subcontracts figures; so it is very likely TG and Aero Art are using the same Russian sources for figure sculpts and painting thus the similarities in poses and colors. The practice seems to be common in the Toy Soldier business. K&C is said to have shared some figure sculpts with Del Prado in the past! Why reinvent the wheel as we used to say in engineering.

Joe, I wouldn't place to much merit in the fact that Treefrog haven't deleted this thread. Treefrog may or may not agree with your assertions, threads are most often deleted when the discussions get to personal. That said, I think there is some merit in what you say, some of the poses do look similar to Aeroart etc. However I suggest they differ enough as not to be considered as being a copy as far as any copyright laws are concerned.

 

[bradleyl30]

Thanks to TG for the Locrian figures because actually i am from..Locri! Locri (in greek Lokroi) is a little town in southern Italy (that is Calabria) that was founded about 2700 yrs ago from settlers coming from one of both of the 2 Lokrides of Greece ..obviously the figures are from the greek Lokrides but i'm pretty sure that the italic Locridians were identical to the greek ones..the link with the "metropolis" (the fatherland) rarely was severed.

Thanks for sharing. I too like the Locrians. I have read though that associating that helmet with them is incorrect. The helmet is more about time period than who wore it. So, it is an older style rather than Locrian style. Have you heard/read this?

 

[sfarrelly]

Joe - this is starting to sound like an old record.

Below are 2 photos of figures from Pegaso Byzantine models which Aeroart have basically copied and now sell as their own models. They tweaked them a little so they are not 100% the same but the general similarity is obvious. This shows that Aeroart do it too!

 

[cantinetozzo]

Thanks for sharing. I too like the Locrians. I have read though that associating that helmet with them is incorrect. The helmet is more about time period than who wore it. So, it is an older style rather than Locrian style. Have you heard/read this?

Don't know much about those helms...rarely i've seen them in collections..i believe it's a "convention" to associate those helmets with the Locrian hoplites. Here i can say the only helmets found and in the local museums are an italic helm like the one portrayed in this pic of a Romeo model, or the ubiquitous montefortino found in local graves.

 

[OzDigger]

TG has stated they use Russian painters to paint their Master Figures; why would they not also use Russian sculptors for some figures? The Elephant is a case in point, virtually identical to a Russian prototype from RV as shown in previous photos and comments. Aero Art subcontracts figures; so it is very likely TG and Aero Art are using the same Russian sources for figure sculpts and painting thus the similarities in poses and colors. The practice seems to be common in the Toy Soldier business. K&C is said to have shared some figure sculpts with Del Prado in the past! Why reinvent the wheel as we used to say in engineering.

I was thinking the same thing, but that doesn't negate what I said.

 

[spartan71]

Joe, it is great that your buying TG too. That your not fixated on having as you put it. The original,. nothing against Aero art, why spend $100.+ on as you put it on a similar figure/ sculpt. Buy two instead of the TG, pieces. Again I can justify spending $100 plus on a general, but not on a line soldier (its the gotta have multiples thing), and spending $300 on two or three while TG pieces will be four to six, most people will go for more things.
And as far as that eventually, an Aeroart piece looking like A piece that TG came out first, with TG coming out with multiple new pieces, every month. Eventually something that Aeroart will make, will look like a TG original.

 

[katana]

Copyrights have been mentioned several times in comments. A copyright is difficult to obtain or defend for a historical item that is well documented; such as a Roman Centurion or a Tiger I. A copyright is issued for an original work, not an iteration of an historical object.

The TG Celtic Chariot and the TCS example are close copies of the original and could not be copyrighted if close to the historical precedent IMO.

 

[Desertkiwi]

Joe, I wouldn't place to much merit in the fact that Treefrog haven't deleted this thread. Treefrog may or may not agree with your assertions, threads are most often deleted when the discussions get to personal. That said, I think there is some merit in what you say, some of the poses do look similar to Aeroart etc. However I suggest they differ enough as not to be considered as being a copy as far as any copyright laws are concerned.

Yes would agree with Oz on this point, TF have an in-depth process for locking or deleting threads and this one doesn't come close.

Copyright infringement is a highly contentious issue at the best of times and unless members start slinging hot stuff at each other, it's unlikely they would become involved unless someone reports a post.

This has been an interesting thread thus far.

 

[OzDigger]

Copyrights have been mentioned several times in comments. A copyright is difficult to obtain or defend for a historical item that is well documented; such as a Roman Centurion or a Tiger I. A copyright is issued for an original work, not an iteration of an historical object.

The TG Celtic Chariot and the TCS example are close copies of the original and could not be copyrighted if close to the historical precedent IMO.

Chariots and other machinery of war such as tanks etc have nothing to do with this discussion. The thread title indicates we are mainly concerned with figures here. Consequently international copyright laws apply automatically as sculptures of humans and most animals for that matter can be considered as being art. Well thats what a reasonable person would believe. In reality law tends to be unreasonable, especially where China is concerned.

 

[katana]

Gee I thought a Roman Centurion was a figure? I suppose it could be considered an ancient armored vehicle as it was armored and ambulatory!

Chariots and other machinery of war such as tanks etc have nothing to do with this discussion. The thread title indicates we are mainly concerned with figures here. Consequently international copyright laws apply automatically as sculptures of humans and most animals for that matter can be considered as being art. Well thats what a reasonable person would believe. In reality law tends to be unreasonable, especially where China is concerned.

 

[OzDigger]

Gee I thought a Roman Centurion was a figure? I suppose it could be considered an ancient armored vehicle as it was armored and ambulatory!

Gee..anyone that considers Osprey to be a "primary source" may well believe armored vehicles could be "ambulatory".

 

[nysoldiers]

Copyrights have been mentioned several times in comments. A copyright is difficult to obtain or defend for a historical item that is well documented; such as a Roman Centurion or a Tiger I. A copyright is issued for an original work, not an iteration of an historical object.

The TG Celtic Chariot and the TCS example are close copies of the original and could not be copyrighted if close to the historical precedent IMO.

Not an attorney but have vast experience in copyrighting and patents.....from both defending and litigating against. You are correct that it would be very difficult and expensive to litigate against the
makers of historical miniatures. Producing and selling a replica of an historical figure or vehicle from many years past would not past muster as an infringement of the laws.
Of course I dealt with this in the area of semiconductors/microchips and other electronic components so I know its not apples to apples.

 

[katana]

Star Wars Walkers are an example of Ambulatory Armor. The H.G. Wells Multiped Land Ship was a precursor of the track driven tank designs of WWI. Humor is good!

Gee..anyone that considers Osprey to be a "primary source" may well believe armored vehicles could be "ambulatory".

 

[OzDigger]

Not an attorney but have vast experience in copyrighting and patents.....from both defending and litigating against. You are correct that it would be very difficult and expensive to litigate against the
makers of historical miniatures. Producing and selling a replica of an historical figure or vehicle from many years past would not past muster as an infringement of the laws.
Of course I dealt with this in the area of semiconductors/microchips and other electronic components so I know its not apples to apples.

I agree that proof of breach of copyright is expensive and difficult to prove, especially where technology is concerned, be it models of armoured vehicles or actual circuit boards. The point I've been attempting to get across is that the human face is unique and when reproduced as an art form such as sculptures, any copying becomes more obvious. In practise breach of copyright is still difficult to prove especially when the item is made in China or other countries that rarely comply with international laws.

Star Wars Walkers are an example of Ambulatory Armor. The H.G. Wells Multiped Land Ship was a precursor of the track driven tank designs of WWI. Humor is good!

Always thought you were a "funny guy" Katana

 

[joesgis]

Joe - this is starting to sound like an old record.

Below are 2 photos of figures from Pegaso Byzantine models which Aeroart have basically copied and now sell as their own models. They tweaked them a little so they are not 100% the same but the general similarity is obvious. This shows that Aeroart do it too!

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I think Aeroart has figures that bear resemblances to these, but not in the flagrant, brazen way in which TG so often mimic's figures from Aeroart's current catalog.
Joe

 

[joesgis]

Joe, I wouldn't place to much merit in the fact that Treefrog haven't deleted this thread. Treefrog may or may not agree with your assertions, threads are most often deleted when the discussions get to personal. That said, I think there is some merit in what you say, some of the poses do look similar to Aeroart etc. However I suggest they differ enough as not to be considered as being a copy as far as any copyright laws are concerned.

Hi Matt,

I agree they aren't copies per se; that was never my contention though. It was others who brought up the copyright stuff.


Joe