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uksubs said:
You forgot to mention it flown by the top RAF & Commwealth ace of WW2 Johnnie Johnston^&cool
Click to expand...

It looks like perhaps Marmaduke Pattle may have actually been the UK's highest Ace.
 
Rob...

Stalingrad was a blow for the germans but, I often think along with things like Kursk that its gets more attention from Historians than it deserves as the death blow for the third reich. if one looks at how well the germans performed at Kursk and Kharkov after stalingrad one see's that the german war machine was still a potent force capable of inflicting huge losses on the enemy on the russian front. it may have been backwards from then but, for me the first real bloody nose the german war machine got in a large scale battle was over the skies of England. until then it had won everything on land sea and air.

Its easy to debate that the beginning of the end came when they were shown to the world that they could be stopped and brutally so by the RAF. Bad luck, goering, radar etc etc have all been posited as parts to the loss but, at the end of the day pilots had to go up and do the business and, do it they did.

We have debated this many times in different ways on here but, simple facts show the first drubbing they had came at the hands of the RAF
Mitch
 
Mitch said:
Rob...

Stalingrad was a blow for the germans but, I often think along with things like Kursk that its gets more attention from Historians than it deserves as the death blow for the third reich. if one looks at how well the germans performed at Kursk and Kharkov after stalingrad one see's that the german war machine was still a potent force capable of inflicting huge losses on the enemy on the russian front. it may have been backwards from then but, for me the first real bloody nose the german war machine got in a large scale battle was over the skies of England. until then it had won everything on land sea and air.

Its easy to debate that the beginning of the end came when they were shown to the world that they could be stopped and brutally so by the RAF. Bad luck, goering, radar etc etc have all been posited as parts to the loss but, at the end of the day pilots had to go up and do the business and, do it they did.

We have debated this many times in different ways on here but, simple facts show the first drubbing they had came at the hands of the RAF
Mitch
Click to expand...

I agree. The loss of the air ended it for Germany...including the continued supply of American weapons of war and then involvement. No offense to the Russians and there brilliant victory with the design, manufacturing and use of the T-34 however. It was certainly a masterpiece of attack.

If you cannot sustain you die.

Ludwig
 
Mitch said:
Rob...

Stalingrad was a blow for the germans but, I often think along with things like Kursk that its gets more attention from Historians than it deserves as the death blow for the third reich. if one looks at how well the germans performed at Kursk and Kharkov after stalingrad one see's that the german war machine was still a potent force capable of inflicting huge losses on the enemy on the russian front. it may have been backwards from then but, for me the first real bloody nose the german war machine got in a large scale battle was over the skies of England. until then it had won everything on land sea and air.

Its easy to debate that the beginning of the end came when they were shown to the world that they could be stopped and brutally so by the RAF. Bad luck, goering, radar etc etc have all been posited as parts to the loss but, at the end of the day pilots had to go up and do the business and, do it they did.

We have debated this many times in different ways on here but, simple facts show the first drubbing they had came at the hands of the RAF
Mitch
Click to expand...


I do agree Mitch, good points.

As you say the pilots had to go up there and do the work, and we can also sometimes forget how territorial and aggressive these guys were. I was reading just the other day of a Hurricane pilot (wish I could remember his name) who was bounced by an ME109 and shot up. His plane well on fire he starts to climb out of the plane to bale out, as he does so the ME109 that shot his plane up shoots past him, HE GOT BACK INTO THE BURNING PLANE, CHASED AFTER IT, SHOT IT DOWN AND ONLY THEN BALED OUT! I mean come on! Where did they get the stones!!

I guess part of this aggressive spirit was because unlike the Germans the RAF pilots were fighting for the safety of their families and way of life, the German morale gradually declined during the battle as their losses mounted.

Pride in what they did is ever lasting.

Rob
 
Rob..

Mike stephens was the pilot and, one of many who I met through my grandfather. As you say unbelievable courage
Mitch
 
Mitch said:
Rob..

Mike stephens was the pilot and, one of many who I met through my grandfather. As you say unbelievable courage
Mitch
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Mitch, incredible courage.

Rob
 
Bayern said:
It looks like perhaps Marmaduke Pattle may have actually been the UK's highest Ace.
Click to expand...
JE Johnson was officially credited with 36.91 kills. Pattle's score is unofficial but can be considered to be at least 40 and as high as 50 victories. Johnson is the highest scorer, officially. The highest scoring Allied ace of WW2 was the Russian, Ivan Kozhedub, with 62 confirmed kills. These numbers can vary a little depending on who's official list one goes by. -- Al
 
Rob said:
I do agree Mitch, good points.

As you say the pilots had to go up there and do the work, and we can also sometimes forget how territorial and aggressive these guys were. I was reading just the other day of a Hurricane pilot (wish I could remember his name) who was bounced by an ME109 and shot up. His plane well on fire he starts to climb out of the plane to bale out, as he does so the ME109 that shot his plane up shoots past him, HE GOT BACK INTO THE BURNING PLANE, CHASED AFTER IT, SHOT IT DOWN AND ONLY THEN BALED OUT! I mean come on! Where did they get the stones!!

I guess part of this aggressive spirit was because unlike the Germans the RAF pilots were fighting for the safety of their families and way of life, the German morale gradually declined during the battle as their losses mounted.

Pride in what they did is ever lasting.

Rob
Click to expand...

Excellent write up Mitch and Rob.



Here is a little information on a German pilot.



My uncle was with his group Jagdgeschwader 52 that surrendered to the Americans in 45. Unfortunately the Americans handed them all over to the Russians in short order. The pilot cared for my uncle that became sick in confinement due to the conditions....well I think we can all visualize a Siberian Gulag...no offense to Russia...they had their reasons to be upset too.

My Uncle died.


When I was young we received a visit in 1959 from a stranger. This stranger handed my mother a small package. it contained a few personal items from my Uncle and final note. They spoke briefly. She wept. For years we never new what was the deal or who the man was that brought the package.




She finally told us that it was Erich Hartmann my Uncle's Commanding Officer. In captivity the Russians tried to make him a traitor to his people and a spy against the allies and he refused. Imagine what refusing the Red Army was like in a Siberian jail.........I doubt they said OK nicely.

He fought for his people by disobeying orders to save all of his group and civilians by surrendering in the face of Czechs. He and his pilots could have flown away free as a bird. But they burned their planes and again..surrendered with all of their people.

I grew up very angry about this and many other things during the occupation. But I do not hate anyone for it. Those times are gone. You how the kids say.....Live Laugh Love and go on.




Happy Diamond Jubilee; Happy 4th of July; Great Job Spain in the EURO 2012; etc.
 
Bayern said:
Excellent write up Mitch and Rob.



Here is a little information on a German pilot.



My uncle was with his group Jagdgeschwader 52 that surrendered to the Americans in 45. Unfortunately the Americans handed them all over to the Russians in short order. The pilot cared for my uncle that became sick in confinement due to the conditions....well I think we can all visualize a Siberian Gulag...no offense to Russia...they had their reasons to be upset too.

My Uncle died.


When I was young we received a visit in 1959 from a stranger. This stranger handed my mother a small package. it contained a few personal items from my Uncle and final note. They spoke briefly. She wept. For years we never new what was the deal or who the man was that brought the package.




She finally told us that it was Erich Hartmann my Uncle's Commanding Officer. In captivity the Russians tried to make him a traitor to his people and a spy against the allies and he refused. Imagine what refusing the Red Army was like in a Siberian jail.........I doubt they said OK nicely.

He fought for his people by disobeying orders to save all of his group and civilians by surrendering in the face of Czechs. He and his pilots could have flown away free as a bird. But they burned their planes and again..surrendered with all of their people.

I grew up very angry about this and many other things during the occupation. But I do not hate anyone for it. Those times are gone. You how the kids say.....Live Laugh Love and go on.




Happy Diamond Jubilee; Happy 4th of July; Great Job Spain in the EURO 2012; etc.
Click to expand...

Yep, lots of people suffered from many many countries, nice story.

Rob
 
Bayern said:
Excellent write up Mitch and Rob.



Here is a little information on a German pilot.



My uncle was with his group Jagdgeschwader 52 that surrendered to the Americans in 45. Unfortunately the Americans handed them all over to the Russians in short order. The pilot cared for my uncle that became sick in confinement due to the conditions....well I think we can all visualize a Siberian Gulag...no offense to Russia...they had their reasons to be upset too.

My Uncle died.


When I was young we received a visit in 1959 from a stranger. This stranger handed my mother a small package. it contained a few personal items from my Uncle and final note. They spoke briefly. She wept. For years we never new what was the deal or who the man was that brought the package.




She finally told us that it was Erich Hartmann my Uncle's Commanding Officer. In captivity the Russians tried to make him a traitor to his people and a spy against the allies and he refused. Imagine what refusing the Red Army was like in a Siberian jail.........I doubt they said OK nicely.

He fought for his people by disobeying orders to save all of his group and civilians by surrendering in the face of Czechs. He and his pilots could have flown away free as a bird. But they burned their planes and again..surrendered with all of their people.

I grew up very angry about this and many other things during the occupation. But I do not hate anyone for it. Those times are gone. You how the kids say.....Live Laugh Love and go on.




I read Erich Hartmann book and cover is time in the gulags in some depth . I've been to Germany a lot and what shocked me with the Russians instead of shutting down the concentration camps they card on using them and read reports that a lot of allied prisoners of war were kept by the Russians after the war as well
Click to expand...
 
lancer said:
JE Johnson was officially credited with 36.91 kills. Pattle's score is unofficial but can be considered to be at least 40 and as high as 50 victories. Johnson is the highest scorer, officially. The highest scoring Allied ace of WW2 was the Russian, Ivan Kozhedub, with 62 confirmed kills. These numbers can vary a little depending on who's official list one goes by. -- Al
Click to expand...
Is it true in the ETO the 8th air force counted ground kill in there scores and cost them a lot of fighters pilots in the process
 
uksubs said:
Bayern said:
Excellent write up Mitch and Rob.



Here is a little information on a German pilot.



My uncle was with his group Jagdgeschwader 52 that surrendered to the Americans in 45. Unfortunately the Americans handed them all over to the Russians in short order. The pilot cared for my uncle that became sick in confinement due to the conditions....well I think we can all visualize a Siberian Gulag...no offense to Russia...they had their reasons to be upset too.

My Uncle died.


When I was young we received a visit in 1959 from a stranger. This stranger handed my mother a small package. it contained a few personal items from my Uncle and final note. They spoke briefly. She wept. For years we never new what was the deal or who the man was that brought the package.




She finally told us that it was Erich Hartmann my Uncle's Commanding Officer. In captivity the Russians tried to make him a traitor to his people and a spy against the allies and he refused. Imagine what refusing the Red Army was like in a Siberian jail.........I doubt they said OK nicely.

He fought for his people by disobeying orders to save all of his group and civilians by surrendering in the face of Czechs. He and his pilots could have flown away free as a bird. But they burned their planes and again..surrendered with all of their people.

I grew up very angry about this and many other things during the occupation. But I do not hate anyone for it. Those times are gone. You how the kids say.....Live Laugh Love and go on.




I read Erich Hartmann book and cover is time in the gulags in some depth . I've been to Germany a lot and what shocked me with the Russians instead of shutting down the concentration camps they card on using them and read reports that a lot of allied prisoners of war were kept by the Russians after the war as well
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post. I being German do not want to start on a Russian bashing. There was so much that happened on both sides. If I had lived in Stalingrad as a Russian I am sure I would feel the same way they did. Who knows maybe I would have done some of the same things. I cannot say. Circumstances can dictate behavior.

One thing I do know is this. What it is like to be very hungry. To not have food. To watch what people will do to stay alive and to do it. To see what having such control over another human being can do to people.

May we end that ever happening again.

Unfortunately it is still happening in this world, like in:
Democratic Republic of Congo
Zimbabwe
Liberia
Guinea-Bissau
Somalia
Comoros
Solomon Islands
Niger
Ethiopia
Central African Republic

Etc.........



Thanks,

Ludwig
Click to expand...
 
lancer said:
JE Johnson was officially credited with 36.91 kills. Pattle's score is unofficial but can be considered to be at least 40 and as high as 50 victories. Johnson is the highest scorer, officially. The highest scoring Allied ace of WW2 was the Russian, Ivan Kozhedub, with 62 confirmed kills. These numbers can vary a little depending on who's official list one goes by. -- Al
Click to expand...

I missed your post. Excellent research.

The highest Axis record was Hartmann with 352 victories. My uncle served with him in Jag 52.

Ludwig.
 
It looks like the modern one
which did not exsist in WW2
Maybe it will be corrected before release
That would be a sad mistake to screw up
such a nice plane
 
MapleLeaf said:
It looks like the modern one
which did not exsist in WW2
Maybe it will be corrected before release
That would be a sad mistake to screw up
such a nice plane
Click to expand...

It does at that....

Leave it to you Maple Leaf to spot that.

Great job!!

Ludwig
 
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