Soviet Panther (1 Viewer)

[boot51]

Fred-
I have to admit this is one explanation for not buying that would never have occurred to me. Could you expound on it a bit?

Well Brad, I'm not very good at explaining things, even my own point of view, but let me give it a shot. First let me say that my not intending to purchase an Honour Bound Soviet Panther is in NO WAY a negative reflection on their product, I have said before many times and will state again HB's vehicles are in every way top notch. My narrow view on my toy soldier collection always has American soldiers wearing American uniforms and using American vehicles that have American markings on them, British forces in British uniforms and vehicles, German in German equipment, etc, etc. I happen to have little or no interest or respect for the Soviet and especially the Japanese armies of WWII, therefore I have no desire to purchase or own any figures or vehicles that represent either of those two forces, particularly a panther in Soviet markings and even less so a M3 in Japanese markings (like Figarti's). I don't want to get too political here, especially on Brad's birthday, but I'll just say that I think Japan and Russia were pretty much given a free pass on a lot of the war crimes they committed. I know there's a lot of Patton haters on this forum, but I think his suggestion to push the Soviets out of eastern Europe while we had all the men and material there, cause they'll never leave on their own accord, was a sound idea that 45 years of history proved correct. I'm not sure if that answered your question or raised even more, but my purchasing choices basically comes down to my distain for the red army in the Soviet Panther's case and a strong dislike for the WWII Japanese army as far as not collecting anything having to do with them.

Fred

 

[Combat]

I got it today. Have to say that is on the usual HB scale of excellence. The figures are great and the tank reflects the "realism" of a hastily coverted Panther. So mostly kudos. On the downside, and I have been critical of many KC vehicles, I would say this is probably my least favorite HB product. It basically is a Barkmann Panther with a green turret. For some reason though it is more expensive than either the Barkmann or Winter Panther - both of which were superior to the SP and came with three figures instead of two. Maybe the extra cost reflects an expectation of lower sales. Anyway it is fairly bland, which is realistic, but detracts somewhat for display purposes. I give HB nothing but kudos though for putting out something different for us Eastern Front guys. Hopefully KC and others will keep it coming. Oh, and the screw came out fairly easily - only two beers consumed in the process although that may have been unrelated.

 

[Combat]

Well Brad, I'm not very good at explaining things, even my own point of view, but let me give it a shot. First let me say that my not intending to purchase an Honour Bound Soviet Panther is in NO WAY a negative reflection on their product, I have said before many times and will state again HB's vehicles are in every way top notch. My narrow view on my toy soldier collection always has American soldiers wearing American uniforms and using American vehicles that have American markings on them, British forces in British uniforms and vehicles, German in German equipment, etc, etc. I happen to have little or no interest or respect for the Soviet and especially the Japanese armies of WWII, therefore I have no desire to purchase or own any figures or vehicles that represent either of those two forces, particularly a panther in Soviet markings and even less so a M3 in Japanese markings (like Figarti's). I don't want to get too political here, especially on Brad's birthday, but I'll just say that I think Japan and Russia were pretty much given a free pass on a lot of the war crimes they committed. I know there's a lot of Patton haters on this forum, but I think his suggestion to push the Soviets out of eastern Europe while we had all the men and material there, cause they'll never leave on their own accord, was a sound idea that 45 years of history proved correct. I'm not sure if that answered your question or raised even more, but my purchasing choices basically comes down to my distain for the red army in the Soviet Panther's case and a strong dislike for the WWII Japanese army as far as not collecting anything having to do with them.

Fred

Fred- Interesting. I'm not Brad, but that's ok. I agree with you that the Soviets and Japanese Army were unsavory characters, but so were the Germans which I gather that you do collect. Not a criticism from me of your preferences. I probably could not explain why I collect certain lines but not others.

 

[boot51]

Fred- Interesting. I'm not Brad, but that's ok. I agree with you that the Soviets and Japanese Army were unsavory characters, but so were the Germans which I gather that you do collect. Not a criticism from me of your preferences. I probably could not explain why I collect certain lines but not others.

Sorry Doug, always been lousy with names. I just have zero interest in the Red Army, but I am anxiously waiting for Honour Bound's Shermans, hopefully one in winter camo.

Fred

 

[Ana Donzino]

Doug,

The Soviet Panther is more expensive than the first from the Barkmann's group because it's got the new brass photo-edged grids.

Ana

 

[TORICDA]

Combat,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the SP. I too noticed the $155 price tag on this one, I hope its not a reflection of prices on future armour releases.

Ana, what does Honour Bound have in the works for us in regards to armour and figures in the upcoming months

Thank you

 

[Combat]

Doug,

The Soviet Panther is more expensive than the first from the Barkmann's group because it's got the new brass photo-edged grids.

Ana


Thanks Ana. I admit that I didn't notice the grids. Not sure that brass adds a lot there, but will take a closer look. I would have preferred a third figure at the $125 price. Also, some more russian equipment on the tank to make it more unique. Hopefully these are constructive criticisms. As I said before, HB is making the best overall vehicles by far in my opinion and the SP is no exception.

 

[Ana Donzino]

Thanks Doug - Constructive criticism is very important for us, so we fully appreciate your comments. Thanks.

Toricda - we are working on the GPA jeep right now, and the Sherman has already begun sculpting process. We also have 3 more infantry sets not yet released: a 4 figure set to go with the field kitchen (infantrymen having their food served), 4 foot figures in action, to be painted in a couple of versions at least, and a set of german winter figures in the snow. I'll see if I can take some pictures during next week. I'm so late with the website updates that it feels that I'll never have time to get all the sections updated!

Thanks,

Ana

 

[Louis Badolato]

Fred,

I understand where you are coming from with regard to the war crimes issue, I have stated the same rationale for my refusal to collect the LAH Nazi parade stuff. However, if you are going to honor the brave Allied soldiers who fought in Normandy or on Iwo Jima by displaying toy soldiers representing them, you need to display the combat troops they fought so courageously to defeat, such as the Waffen SS and Japanese troops.

As far as the Soviet forces are concerned, the simple truth is (1) no matter how bad they were, the Nazis were worse, and (2) without their engaging and defeating 75% of the Nazi forces we don't win the war. That doesn't mean you need to collect or display them, but I wouldn't feel right displaying WWII without them. Just my 2 cents.

 

[OzDigger]

Fred,

I understand where you are coming from with regard to the war crimes issue, I have stated the same rationale for my refusal to collect the LAH Nazi parade stuff. However, if you are going to honor the brave Allied soldiers who fought in Normandy or on Iwo Jima by displaying toy soldiers representing them, you need to display the combat troops they fought so courageously to defeat, such as the Waffen SS and Japanese troops.

As far as the Soviet forces are concerned, the simple truth is (1) no matter how bad they were, the Nazis were worse, and (2) without their engaging and defeating 75% of the Nazi forces we don't win the war. That doesn't mean you need to collect or display them, but I wouldn't feel right displaying WWII without them. Just my 2 cents.

Very much my opinion.

 

[Combat]

I had the chance to visit the WWII museum in Moscow. When you do so you can't help but be impressed by the sacrifice of the Russian people. Approximately 30 million killed. Many times over the number for all the other participants combined. I believe American deaths were less than one million just for comparison. Maybe a unique event in history that they could withstand that level of destruction.

 

[jazzeum]

On the other hand what about what Stalin did to people within his own country. In a new book that I just picked up yesterday called The War of the World: Twentieth Century Conflict and the Descent of the West, the author, Niall Ferguson makes the point that "a minimum estimate for the total victims of all political violence in the Soviet Union between 1928 and 1953 is 21 million." That's no small figure and overshadows what Hitler did to his own people before World War II.

 

[Louis Badolato]

So don't display a figure of Stalin. The Soviet people, on the other hand, deserve our gratitude.

 

[Pierre]

I had the chance to visit the WWII museum in Moscow. When you do so you can't help but be impressed by the sacrifice of the Russian people. Approximately 30 million killed. Many times over the number for all the other participants combined. I believe American deaths were less than one million just for comparison. Maybe a unique event in history that they could withstand that level of destruction.

American deaths were 295 000; USSR - 13 600 000 militarymen and 7 700 000 civilians.

Pierre.

 

[jazzeum]

While you guys are waxing poetic, let's not forget that Stalin is one of the great mass murderers of all time, occupying that pantheon with his former political partner Hitler and other notables such as Mao. Yes, we owe a debt to the Russian people (not the Soviet people, by the way; Soviet is a form of organization, not people) but let us not forget that great swaths of Ukranians rebelled against Stalin during the war, such was the hatred for Stalin and let us not forget that Stalin was more than happy to slice up Poland with Germany. Had Hitler decided not to attack the USSR when he did, who know what other regions they would have divvied up together.

And it was Stalin's folly that left the USSR wholly unprepared for the German attack and that when the tide turned, it was only through his use of brute force by sending millions of his countrymen to slaughter that the USSR was able to prevail. Stalin and Hitler had their total disregard of the individual in common among many other traits. They were each willing to sacrifice everything at all costs. On the other hand, the Allies were more concerned about the brute application of force and using their people as cannon fodder.

Opening the second front was a constant mantra for Stalin. He needed the pressure relieved on the Russians but one of the reasons he wanted that was so he could have a free hand in eastern and southeastern Europe. That is why he constantly opposed the Allies invasion of Italy and pushed for an invasion into France. He wanted the Allies out of his sphere of influence.

So let us give thanks to the Russian, Georgian and other peoples of the former USSR but let us not forget the sacrifice they made for Stalin, how Stalin left the country unprepared for war and how he butchered his people.

Yes, you can be sure that for the same reasons you and I don't collect LAH, I won't have Stalin in my collection.

 

[OzDigger]

There's no doubt that Stalin was a nasty piece of work and much like Hitler in many respects. I have a Stalin, and a Hitler figure, as well as several LAH figures and a number of SS guys. Imo having these figures doesn't support their regimes which is in line with the K & C attitude to making them.

As we no doubt all know there are several interpretations for the term Soviet and I was refering to the Soviet Union (USSR) being the federal union of the 15 republics. Imo the term Russia, the largest republic, excludes other republics such as Ukrainia that made a significant contribution to the defeat of Hitlers Germany.

 

[Joey]

I know there's a lot of Patton haters on this forum, but I think his suggestion to push the Soviets out of eastern Europe while we had all the men and material there, cause they'll never leave on their own accord, was a sound idea that 45 years of history proved correct.

I don't to get really involved in this discussion, but didn't Patton state that when he visited a POW-camp with 3000 Waffen SS-soldiers? Didn't he state to release them, and drive with them to Moscow?

Also, I agree with what has been said here already. We owe a gratitude to the Russian people, because without the Russians, the Allies probably would not have won the war. Their sacrifices should always be remembered. I don't care about Stalin, he was far worse than Hitler (which is quite hard), but the modal Russian soldier is to be respected...

 

[Rob]

This is what is so good about this forum,interesting discussion with everyones freedom to say just what they want.(hey thats what so many died for).I agree with the view that Stalin was a vile dictator to be condemed,however the sacrafices the Russian people made and the efforts of their army cannot be overlooked.It was through their struggles and letting of blood that many German soldiers were taken away from the west and made the D-day landings easier than they could have been.

I would never collect LAH and have no wish to have Hitler or Stalin in my collection.However to be honest i can't imagine not having a T-34 in a collection of some of the best and most famous tanks of WW2.

Finally i said it before say it again,whatever the faults of Patton/Monty etc they were on the right side fighting the worst regime in history.God bless em.

Rob

 

[Combat]

Combat,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the SP. I too noticed the $155 price tag on this one, I hope its not a reflection of prices on future armour releases.

Thank you

I notice that the HB website has some new pictures of the Soviet Panther and the price is now listed as $145.

 

[Shiloh]

Around a million of the Soviet war dead were issued to them when they invaded Finland. True Finland was accepting help from Germany but I will never believe they were part of the Axis. They were simply fighting for there homeland. Finland is still the only country to pay the U.S. back for WWII assistance all others the debt was forgiven or written off.