The Civil War Thread (3 Viewers)

[Capitolron]

OK - I have heard the cry and now we shall begin !!

Lets talk about an interesting point that I have heard a little bit about - but, whould like to see if any of you know more details.

In 1864 - The Lincoln White House was preparing to make another run for the Presidency. The war certainly had its ups and downs and there was a little fear that they could lose to a PEACE CANDIDATE. So - I believe it was HAY - who was sent on a secret mission to Florida to see if that State could be re-organized and brought back into the Union as one of the first returning States of the Confederacy.

The Union had control of most of the St.John's River System and all of the Coast line from the Georgia Border - Jacksonville - St. Augustine south to Key West. Although Tallahassee was still in Confederate Hands and would remain so throughout the ENTIRE WAR (Tallahassee was the ONLY Confederate State Capitol to never be taken by force during the War) - HAY and other Republicans felt they could still reorganize Florida and bring it back to the Union before the Election - So President Lincoln could count on their Votes !!

In the end the Pro-Union Republicans could not meet the standard set to bring a State back in the Union (Not sure if that was Lincoln's or the Radical Republicans in Congress Standard ? ) So the effort died.

I thought this was always interesting and even thought about working on some research - maybe a book - on the subject. Especially since Florida's more recent electoral happenings.

So anyone heard of this ?? Any more details out there - I would love to know?

 

[UKReb]

Wow! Ron why don't you pick a harder topic to kick this thread off. You're right very little written in the history books about this one.
Here for what it's worth is what I know. I believe and am prepared to be corrected that this idea of John Hay's which he called something like Florida's Amnesty Proposal culminated and belly flopped at the Battle of Olustree.

Hay was Lincoln's young personal secretary and he knew that Abe had agents working in Louisiana and Arkansas attempting to collect 10% of loyal voters to get both states back into the Union. Hay had Floridian Unionist friends who had informed him that Florida had no enthusiasm for the Confederacy or it's causes and with the right concessions could be persuaded back into the Union fold.
Lincoln did not believe this would happen without military intervention and sent Hay to discuss the idea with General Quincy Gillmore who controlled the Union forces around Charleston. He was very enthused with the idea- most probably because he was bored with the non-activity in his area- and suggested an invasion to capture the state capital. He selected Brig Gen Truman Seymour (not the sharpest knife in the federal drawer) to ship 8000 men in gunboats and occupy Jacksonville whilst he took the main force and travelled west following the rail-line. Hay would accompany Seymour armed with thousands of "loyalty oaths" for Floridians to swear allegiance to the Stars & Stripes again.
They got to Jacksonville (the federals had occupied it twice before and now was almost derelict and deserted.) The first part of the plan was for Gillmore to attack and occupy Lake City while Seymour stayed in Jacksonville as support.
There then followed typical federal cock-ups, I forget the full details but there were no locomotives to carry supplies, cavalry falling back on rumours of massed Confederates in front of them (at the time there were none) etc. subsequently Gillmore halted the advance to gather intelligence.
Meanwhile the blunt knife Seymour tired of delays and no information decided not to wait for Gillmore but attack Lake City with just his own force. He took off and clashed with a rebel army under the command of Brig Gen Joe Finnegan a brash Irishman near a swamp called Ocean Pond not far from the town of Olustree. Finnegan whupped him to a frazzle due to Seymour sending tired troops in continual futile attacks on a well defended position with both flanks anchored in swampland. Seymour lost over 2000 men and finally retreated back to Jacksonville where Gillmore promptly sacked him. Thus ended Hay's Florida idea.
The Washington press crucified Lincoln accusing him of sacrificing the lives of 2000 men just to add a new state who would vote for him in the upcoming Presidential elections.
As it turned out the whole plan was unnecessary as Grant & Sherman together delivered the election for him on a plate.

 

[Capitolron]

UK Reb

You are the man !

I had heard bits and pieces but never all together like that !

Great Job.

I have been to the Battleground of Olustree - they hold an re-enactment every year - good times. Also been to the Battleground of Natural Bridge where the first invasion of Tallahassee took place - another Confederate Victory

I have been really interested in the electoral politics of Lincoln in 1864 and the work of John Hay - Lincolns Personal Secretary.

I really love this stuff.

Ron

 

[Capitolron]

UK Reb

Have you read Newt Gingrich's Novels on the Civil War ?? He has three of them.

Ron

 

[UKReb]

UK Reb

Have you read Newt Gingrich's Novels on the Civil War ?? He has three of them.

Ron

Hi Ron

Yeah! got all three, prefer the first Gettysburg as one of the best alternate civil war history books I've read. Thrilling page turner.
An American colleague of mine stated that Gingrich was not very popular in Washington, didn't he serve in Congress for many years?

You stated you were interested in Abe and his electoral politics, well I have this very week purchased a book recommended to me by that same colleague called "Did Lincoln Own Slaves (And other frequently asked questions about old Abe)" written by Gerald Prokopowicz. I have often spoken to him on the Civil War Round Table (Internet)
Gerry served nine years as the resident Lincoln scholar at the Abraham Lincoln Museum and the book is based on the hundreds of questions he was asked by the public during his tenure.
Although not finished reading it I can thoroughly recommend it to you because based on your posts it's going to be right up your street.
Extremely well written and geared towards the general public rather than psyche geeks like me, it's infused with dollops of humour and puts to rest the myths, legends and downright slander that has been written about the gawky Illinois lawyer.
What you will find very helpful is that at the end of each chapter he recommends books for further reading. Search it out I don't think you will be disappointed
Reb

 

[Capitolron]

UKR

Thanks - I will do that.

I have always found this period very interesting. I make it a point in some of my travels to stop off and visit as many CW Historical that I can.

As a fellow Rebel - I think you find my last visit interesting - Stonewall Jackson's Home in Lexington, VA. I went and took my wife & son there when we were on our way to a College Football Bowl Game.

Very interesting tour - lot of interesting footnotes about Stonewall and his time teaching at VMI. Here are a couple:

Jackson rarely eat meat - he loved vegetables and would eat meat once a month.

Jackson only drank "spring water" - never well water and had his slave take large glass bottles and fill them up at a near by spring.

Jackson took a cold bath every morning - go on a hour walk through town before coming back home for breakfast with the family.

Jackson held a specific dinner time and prayer time before dinner - if you were late for prayers, you would not eat that night.

Really interesting - I will try to pick up some brochures of these places as I go around for you if you would like.

Ron

 

[UKReb]

That would be great Ron thank you.
My favourite quote of Old Jack was following one of his seven day's battles he asked Sandy Pendleton the whereabouts of one of the brigades Colonels
Pendleton replied "Sir! I'm sorry I have to report that he has been killed" Jackson without looking at him simply stated "Admirable!"

Reb

 

[Peter Reuss]

It's interesting...ask most people about Honest Abe and people assume that he was highly popular back in his time. I guess when you are assassinated like he was the legend outgrows the man.

I really enjoyed Shelby Foote's portrayals of Lincoln in his CW Trilogy. While Foote is definitely a southerner, he give interesting insight into the political travails of the north. It's amazing how close to losing the election Lincoln came. If Grant and Sherman hadn't gotten things going, it might have been a disaster.

Can you imagine the north with McClellan as president! Yikes!

Pete

 

[UKReb]

It's interesting...ask most people about Honest Abe and people assume that he was highly popular back in his time. I guess when you are assassinated like he was the legend outgrows the man.

I really enjoyed Shelby Foote's portrayals of Lincoln in his CW Trilogy. While Foote is definitely a southerner, he give interesting insight into the political travails of the north. It's amazing how close to losing the election Lincoln came. If Grant and Sherman hadn't gotten things going, it might have been a disaster.

Can you imagine the north with McClellan as president! Yikes!

Pete

Pete
You raise an interesting point especially your last sentence.

Gorgeous George can take a hell of a lot of credit for turning the Army of the Potomac from a rag-tag mob into a properly organised unit and his men loved him for it. But when Lincoln sacked him after Antietam and also because he had become a loud verbal critic of the president and his administration McClellan knew he had no chance for a command while Lincoln was still in office.

His name came up as a Democratic candidate to oppose Lincoln in the 1864 elections, the Democrats brushed over his failure in the Peninsular campaign as down to the Lincoln adminstration not fully supporting him. However, although presented to the electorate as the "Peace Candidate" his views on the war had not changed since 1862. He still opposed Emancipation but favoured restoration of the Union by military victory.

In July 1864 Grant met with Lincoln to discuss the command responsibilities for the Eastern theatre, McClellan's name came up and both agreed that he should be offered the post if he gave up his election campaign, but McClellan refused stating it was his greatest wish to command the Army of the Potomac in one last great campaign but he was not willing to trade a presidential nomination for the possibility.These war-like comments concerned the peace wing of the Democrats and launched a last minute effort to nominate Governor Horatio Seymour of New York but McClellan won the nomination at the Democratic convention.

His political enemies began to make slanderous allegations about his war performance. The most sensational of these was that he had secretly met with Lee at Antietam, where the two had agreed that the Confederate army would withdraw across the Potomac without interference, clearing the way for a compromise peace settlement that would preserve slavery in the South.These allegations coupled with Grant and Sherman's attritional victories gave the election to Lincoln. But the outcome suprised both McClellan and Lincoln, Lincoln defeated him by a ten-to-one margin in the electoral race. McClellan had counted on the army's vote, but after three years of fighting, they knew the road to peace lay with Lincoln.

McClellan was a complex man. Most historians have not been kind to him and view him as overly cautious, vindictive, vain and generally a detriment to his cause. Yet Lee himself admitted that McClellan was his brightest adversary. The love and admiration his men had for him remains almost unparelled in American history. In return, he respected and loved his troops and experienced real sadness when his men were killed in battle. To some he was a military genius crippled by his own insecurity, a master of organisation and planning who lacked boldness in executing his own plans. But in my view, for what it's worth, is that his actions might be best described as Lincoln put it, he was
"the General with the slows"
Reb.

 

[Louis Badolato]

If you are a great organizer, than they ought to make you somebody's chief of staff, but no matter how great you are logistically, if you don't understand the most basic premise of warfare, "get there firstest with the mostest" to quote one of your Confederate tacticians, you are useless as general. I rate McClellen second only to Joe Hooker as the biggest military disaster this Country ever produced. I don't think there is a single other commander who, given the enemies plans, and knowing the enemy has hopelessly divided itself and is ripe to be defeated in detail, would sit on his hands like that incompetent did, allowing the enemy to reunite and costing his command literally thousands of lives.

Give me a William Tecumsuh Sherman-type as a general anyday. Get behind enemy lines, keep moving fast, destroying everything in your path, meet the enemy on your terms, route him, and leaving him nothing usefull in your wake. Now that's a general. McClellen was a glorified chief of staff, who can organize an army but not lead it.

 

[Robert E. Lee]

What about mud march Burnside?

 

[UKReb]

If you are a great organizer, than they ought to make you somebody's chief of staff, but no matter how great you are logistically, if you don't understand the most basic premise of warfare, "get there firstest with the mostest" to quote one of your Confederate tacticians, you are useless as general. I rate McClellen second only to Joe Hooker as the biggest military disaster this Country ever produced. I don't think there is a single other commander who, given the enemies plans, and knowing the enemy has hopelessly divided itself and is ripe to be defeated in detail, would sit on his hands like that incompetent did, allowing the enemy to reunite and costing his command literally thousands of lives.

Give me a William Tecumsuh Sherman-type as a general anyday. Get behind enemy lines, keep moving fast, destroying everything in your path, meet the enemy on your terms, route him, and leaving him nothing usefull in your wake. Now that's a general. McClellen was a glorified chief of staff, who can organize an army but not lead it.

Louis
I take it you weren't very keen on him then!!!!!!
Reb

 

[Peter Reuss]

If you are a great organizer, than they ought to make you somebody's chief of staff, but no matter how great you are logistically, if you don't understand the most basic premise of warfare, "get there firstest with the mostest" to quote one of your Confederate tacticians, you are useless as general. I rate McClellen second only to Joe Hooker as the biggest military disaster this Country ever produced. I don't think there is a single other commander who, given the enemies plans, and knowing the enemy has hopelessly divided itself and is ripe to be defeated in detail, would sit on his hands like that incompetent did, allowing the enemy to reunite and costing his command literally thousands of lives.

Give me a William Tecumsuh Sherman-type as a general anyday. Get behind enemy lines, keep moving fast, destroying everything in your path, meet the enemy on your terms, route him, and leaving him nothing usefull in your wake. Now that's a general. McClellen was a glorified chief of staff, who can organize an army but not lead it.

A bit harsh...

McClellan was constantly convinced that he was outnumbered and he did not want to 'blunder' into disaster. This led him to do nothing...which had its own problems, but allowed him to keep most of his army intact to fight another day. Not an effective way to mount an invasion...

Which raises an interesting question. Lee constantly split his army in the face of the enemy and is considered a brilliant geneal for doing it. If the Union had ever gotten a clue and attacked him in detail (as they should have), would we still consider him brilliant, or would we revile him for 'poor choices'? Perhaps part of being brilliant is knowing your enemy, but on several occasions Lee could have lost significant portions of his army if the Union had only pushed forward.

Some gamblers win and are considered great. Some gamblers lose and are considered failures. It seems there's a fine line between the two.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Being convinced that he was always outnumbered, despite all intelligence to the contrary, is just further evidence of "the Little Napoleon's" incompetence. As far as Lee is concerned, I don't think he was gambling - he knew he was up against incompetents and he exploited that advantage. Lee was talented enough that a young Erwin Rommel studied his tactics. As great a general as Lee was, even considering the incredibly poor quality of Union Generals for the first couple of years of the war, he faced virtually insurmountable odds. The Union had all the railroads, an unlimited supply of men (the Union never had more than 10% of its male population in arms at any point during the War), all the industry, virtually the entire Navy. The fact that Lee kept the South in the war as long as he did, and even had a chance of winning, is a testament to his greatness as a general.

Unfortunately for Lee, he gambled once, and crapped out, at Gettysburg. Pickett's Charge was an insane gamble built on an over-estimation of his men's capabilities. If you've been kicking the heck out of players who are incredible poorly coached, that doesn't make your players superstars, or prove that the other players lack talent. It makes the other players poorly coached, nothing more, nothing less. By letting himself believe that his men would always win, and were just so much better than Union troops that they could overcome all odds and take Cemetary Ridge, just because they had not lost in the past, Lee himself made a huge coaching mistake, and it cost him the whole shooting match. That doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great General, but it does mean he made one fatal mistake and went down in history as one of the greatest generals to lose a war.

 

[damian]

I thought this was always interesting and even thought about working on some research - maybe a book - on the subject. Especially since Florida's more recent electoral happenings.

So anyone heard of this ?? Any more details out there - I would love to know?

Now Ron what exactly are you saying here?
Regards
Damian

 

[Capitolron]

Damian

Florida has been in the electoral spotlight for a few election cycles.

Thats why Al Gore is more worried about Polar Bears than building a Presidential Library right now.

 

[Wraith]

Thats why Al Gore is more worried about Polar Bears than building a Presidential Library right now.

What? Is Randy running for election? Can a UK citizen vote?

 

[Wraith]

On a slightly more serious note (although Randy would still get my vote), Interesting discussion thread guys. Picking up bits of info all the time, on an era / war I'm not familiar with. Viewing with interest.

 

[Gideon]

Awesome thread Ron!!!! Fascinating about Florida then and now and very little having been said of it - this is the first I've heard about Florida being repatriated to get votes.

 

[PolarBear]

On a slightly more serious note (although Randy would still get my vote), Interesting discussion thread guys. Picking up bits of info all the time, on an era / war I'm not familiar with. Viewing with interest.

Simon

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Meet my campaign manager, Sugar Bush (he works for peanuts) who will be calling you shortly for a contibution for my run for the presidency. Since I"m too busy posting on TF, he is running in the primaries to test the waters for my campaign in the Fall.
Randy a.k.a. Polar Bear in '08