The Civil War Thread (1 Viewer)

[Tex]

Plus, I imagine such an event would convince the British and French to be a bit more forthcoming with support for the Confederacy.

 

[Capitolron]

UK Reb and guys

I am sorry I havent been able to give more to this thread right now. Unfortunately, I have been selected for a Federal Grand Jury and -yes- also got picked as the Foreman. So I am up early and home late - only to try to get work things done that I missed that day. I have been getting short Treefrog burst between calls

I promise to rejoin in force soon. I am very interested in talking about Antietam - that was the turning point for modern warfare in the 1800's - it was the beginning of the end of Napoleonic tactics. Really great stuff!

Also UK Reb - I have started your brochure collection !

If anyone else would like brochures from Civil War Battlefields in the Eastern Theater - let me know.

Anyway - Back to Court - ugh! Hey, wasnt it you brits who started this whole grand jury thing to begin with - coudnt you just let the King have his way and save me from all of this??

Talk with all of you soon - KEEP THE THREAD GOING !!

Ron

 

[jazzeum]

Gary (Shiloh) asked me to post the following photos,

 

[wadepat]

Hi Gary,

Great diorama! I love the "Bloody Pond." The horse in the middle of the pond is a nice touch.

I am glad to see you contributing your talents to this great thread!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[Harrytheheid]

UK Reb and guys

I am sorry I havent been able to give more to this thread right now. Unfortunately, I have been selected for a Federal Grand Jury and -yes- also got picked as the Foreman. So I am up early and home late - only to try to get work things done that I missed that day. I have been getting short Treefrog burst between calls

I promise to rejoin in force soon. I am very interested in talking about Antietam - that was the turning point for modern warfare in the 1800's - it was the beginning of the end of Napoleonic tactics. Really great stuff!

Also UK Reb - I have started your brochure collection !

If anyone else would like brochures from Civil War Battlefields in the Eastern Theater - let me know.

Anyway - Back to Court - ugh! Hey, wasnt it you brits who started this whole grand jury thing to begin with - coudnt you just let the King have his way and save me from all of this??

Talk with all of you soon - KEEP THE THREAD GOING !!

Ron

Och, go on and admit it. You luv it all really....
Cheers
H

 

[UKReb]

UK Reb and guys

I am sorry I havent been able to give more to this thread right now. Unfortunately, I have been selected for a Federal Grand Jury and -yes- also got picked as the Foreman. So I am up early and home late - only to try to get work things done that I missed that day. I have been getting short Treefrog burst between calls

I promise to rejoin in force soon. I am very interested in talking about Antietam - that was the turning point for modern warfare in the 1800's - it was the beginning of the end of Napoleonic tactics. Really great stuff!

Also UK Reb - I have started your brochure collection !

If anyone else would like brochures from Civil War Battlefields in the Eastern Theater - let me know.

Anyway - Back to Court - ugh! Hey, wasnt it you brits who started this whole grand jury thing to begin with - coudnt you just let the King have his way and save me from all of this??

Talk with all of you soon - KEEP THE THREAD GOING !!

Ron

Careful Ron,
We Brits cut the king's head off!!!!!!!!

Reb

 

[UKReb]

Gary (Shiloh) asked me to post the following photos,

Gary,

An outstanding piece of work, very well researched and brilliantly executed.I have personally seen very few dios of the Battle of Shiloh and your depiction highlights just one of the horrific scenes of that intense two day fight. Well done really impressive work


Ironic that "Shiloh" is a Hebrew word meaning "place of peace!" And some of those Rebs and Yanks shown in your dio took their last drink of water from that pond and then found their own eternal peace!
As I've tried to state on this thread for other froggers it was indeed "One Hell of a War!"

Reb

 

[Rob]

Gary,that is a stunning display.It must be the best 'After the Battle' display i've ever seen.You have used great skill to portray such a Horrific scene and have made it both realistic and moving.Congratulations you are very talented.

Rob

 

[Combat]

That's one hell of a good question that I have been asked many times (I teach this stuff twice a month at a military college and your question always gets a heated debate going)
In a word and others on the forum will disagree- NO- his army after 3 days of horrendous fighting and the massive casualties inflicted on his men they simply would not have had the strength to threaten either Philadelphia or Washington (which was the basic plan) Washington was extremely well defended with siege guns and infantry.
Reb.

Reb - I tend to agree with you that the South could never have won a military victory. However, a decisive victory at Gettysburg may have lead to a political victory - the defeat of Lincoln in '64 election - followed by a truce between the parties. Anyone defeating Lincoln in '64 would have been an anti-war candidate willing to end the war on terms acceptable to the south.

BTW: I work in Gettysburg so get to see a lot of the battlefield. One interesting thing about the field over which Pickett's charge occurred is that it is not flat as many believe. Rather the field has a number of small rolling hills in which it is often possible to disappear entirely from the field of vision of the union line. My guess is that a whole lot of rebs hunkered down in those areas and never made a real attempt to cross the field. There were also a number of fences across the field which disrupted the attack. For some reason Lee did not have them destroyed beforehand. Some accounts indicate that many rebs simply congregated along those fences. This theory has been validated by a recent study that found the number of southern casualties were substantially lower than they should have been on that day under the circumstances. Many rebs simply and rightly believed it would never succeed and did the natural thing by hunkering down wherever possible. I have walked from the southern line to the high water mark. With no obstructions or stops and no one shooting at me it still took almost 20 minutes.

 

[Peter Reuss]

Reb - I tend to agree with you that the South could never have won a military victory. However, a decisive victory at Gettysburg may have lead to a political victory - the defeat of Lincoln in '64 election - followed by a truce between the parties. Anyone defeating Lincoln in '64 would have been an anti-war candidate willing to end the war on terms acceptable to the south.

BTW: I work in Gettysburg so get to see a lot of the battlefield. One interesting thing about the field over which Pickett's charge occurred is that it is not flat as many believe. Rather the field has a number of small rolling hills in which it is often possible to disappear entirely from the field of vision of the union line. My guess is that a whole lot of rebs hunkered down in those areas and never made a real attempt to cross the field. There were also a number of fences across the field which disrupted the attack. For some reason Lee did not have them destroyed beforehand. Some accounts indicate that many rebs simply congregated along those fences. This theory has been validated by a recent study that found the number of southern casualties were substantially lower than they should have been on that day under the circumstances. Many rebs simply and rightly believed it would never succeed and did the natural thing by hunkering down wherever possible. I have walked from the southern line to the high water mark. With no obstructions or stops and no one shooting at me it still took almost 20 minutes.

The question is whether the Union's loss at Gettysburg would have overcome their victory at Vicksburg. It's easy to speculate that the north would have given up after such a major blow, but Vicksburg wouldn't have been ignored. Lee wouldn't have been able to follow up on a Gettysburg victory...he would have still had to head back fro Virginia to shorten the supply lines. He couldn't be like Grant was later in the war and just keep grinding away.

Combat, do you have any references for the 'recent study'? It sounds like very interesting reading.

Pete

 

[UKReb]

Reb - I tend to agree with you that the South could never have won a military victory. However, a decisive victory at Gettysburg may have lead to a political victory - the defeat of Lincoln in '64 election - followed by a truce between the parties. Anyone defeating Lincoln in '64 would have been an anti-war candidate willing to end the war on terms acceptable to the south.

BTW: I work in Gettysburg so get to see a lot of the battlefield. One interesting thing about the field over which Pickett's charge occurred is that it is not flat as many believe. Rather the field has a number of small rolling hills in which it is often possible to disappear entirely from the field of vision of the union line. My guess is that a whole lot of rebs hunkered down in those areas and never made a real attempt to cross the field. There were also a number of fences across the field which disrupted the attack. For some reason Lee did not have them destroyed beforehand. Some accounts indicate that many rebs simply congregated along those fences. This theory has been validated by a recent study that found the number of southern casualties were substantially lower than they should have been on that day under the circumstances. Many rebs simply and rightly believed it would never succeed and did the natural thing by hunkering down wherever possible. I have walked from the southern line to the high water mark. With no obstructions or stops and no one shooting at me it still took almost 20 minutes.

Hi Combat
Yeah! I did notice the rolling ridges when I was there (visited a couple of times) interesting that you mention a recent study about southern casualties aligned with them taking refuge amongst the dips.

Reading the diaries of some Reb/Yankee officers a couple of them mentioned the skulkers, Longstreet himself noticed that his left flank looked decidedly shaky even before receiving canister fire. Brockenbrough's brigade remained the critical one, a Mississipian officer (whose name escapes me at the moment) was close to the left of Davis's brigade and he wrote after the battle that many of the Virginians remained in the shelter of the various swales.

When Brockenbroughs little brigade broke and ran might be considered of no great significance, but when a flank crumbles and breaks the question is always where does it stop. But I would suspect that the most serious effect of his brigade breaking was one of morale. Lee's army was definitely not used to seeing a brigade even a small one, go streaming to the rear, with all it's flags (afterall that's what they made Yankees do). Everyone who saw it must have thought something disastrous had happened on the left and some must have started to dive for whatever cover they found and stay there.
Just a theory but aligns with the study you mentioned. Thanks for the on the spot info. Much appreciated.

Reb

 

[The Lt.]

Thanks Reb for your insight and history lesson and as usual well written and presented.....The Lt.

 

[Combat]

Combat, do you have any references for the 'recent study'? It sounds like very interesting reading.

Pete

My recollection on this is that a map was discovered recently (last 10 years) which identified the location and number of Confederates buried on the field where Pickett's charge occurred. Given that they were usually buried where they fell it gives a good indication of what happened when you also factor in the total number of troops involved and capabilities of the weapons used against them (range and accuracy etc). I believe only about 500 confederates were buried along the emmittsburg road just in front of the Union lines. When you pull all those pieces together it leads to a few reasonable conclusions including that not many confederates made it very far across the field. The natural inclination being to seek cover or run. The history channel did a show on Unsolved History about Pickett's charge in which they did a recreation. One of their conclusions is that many times the number of deaths would have occurred if most of the Southerners had been able to get even close to the union lines.

BTW: I believe all the southern dead that could be found were removed from Gettysburg and reburied in various locations in the South after the war. If you ever get a chance to visit Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond its worth a stop. Many of Pickett's men and Pickett himself (if I recall) are buried there along with other notable Confederates - Jeb Stuart, Jefferson Davis from my memory. Also a couple of US Presidents.

 

[Capitolron]

My recollection on this is that a map was discovered recently (last 10 years) which identified the location and number of Confederates buried on the field where Pickett's charge occurred. Given that they were usually buried where they fell it gives a good indication of what happened when you also factor in the total number of troops involved and capabilities of the weapons used against them (range and accuracy etc). I believe only about 500 confederates were buried along the emmittsburg road just in front of the Union lines. When you pull all those pieces together it leads to a few reasonable conclusions including that not many confederates made it very far across the field. The natural inclination being to seek cover or run. The history channel did a show on Unsolved History about Pickett's charge in which they did a recreation. One of their conclusions is that many times the number of deaths would have occurred if most of the Southerners had been able to get even close to the union lines.

BTW: I believe all the southern dead that could be found were removed from Gettysburg and reburied in various locations in the South after the war. If you ever get a chance to visit Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond its worth a stop. Many of Pickett's men and Pickett himself (if I recall) are buried there along with other notable Confederates - Jeb Stuart, Jefferson Davis from my memory. Also a couple of US Presidents.

Doug

Thats interesting - how many Confederate Dead were removed from the Battlefield ?

That must have been a huge job to do that in the late 1800's. Especially when most graves were with bodies without coffins.

Ron

 

[Capitolron]

Sunday and I have a Bad Cold. - Nothing like being stuck in a Grand Jury room with 23 people some who are sick and it is hot throughout the day !

Anyway.....

Let talk about ANTIETAM !

The first modern weapons battle of the Civil War ! When I say that I mean here was the first time where Napoleonic Military Tactics ran smack against Modern Artillery Weapons and Infantry Rifles in Unit movements.

The First Battle of Bull Run really didnt have the terrible effect of these two forces coming together - like Antietam (or Sharpesburg for those of the Southern view).

I actually have the Conte Sets of Rolling Thunder with a K&C Stonewall Jackson figure directing the Artillery in the MID-DAY Phase of the Battle. I also have the Conte "Eyeball to Eyeball" Morning Clash at the Pike with the Iron Brigade. Then finally in the same Curio Cabinet I have the Evening Phase of K&C's "Burnsides Bridge" where I have actually picked up some stones from the river for the river that is running under the bridge in my display.

UK Reb how should we go about this discussion of my favorite battle. Start with each phase of the day?

The Battle of Antietam was great for many reasons for historians. 1) Large Unit Movements and deadly exchanges. 2) The Tactic used and responses from each sides leaders. 3) The stories of how Napoleon Tactics suffered under Modern Weapons. 4) The politics surrounding the Invasion and the retreat. - oh, I could go on and on....

One side note I was personally disappointed that the movie "GODS AND GENERALS" did not include the Battle of Antietam - which really showed off Stonewall Jackson's talents. I hope they release a directors cut of the DVD - my understanding is footage was shot for the Battle and cut from the movie.

Well - that should start the ball rolling!!

 

[Combat]

Doug

Thats interesting - how many Confederate Dead were removed from the Battlefield ?

That must have been a huge job to do that in the late 1800's. Especially when most graves were with bodies without coffins.

Ron

Ron-
I believe all the southern dead that could be located were returned in the 1870's. Not sure of the total number. It must have been a very difficult job and a somber procession back home. It was a bit of a sore point that the union soldiers were buried in the national cemetery and the confederates just wherever they fell. A few years ago a body was discovered in the railway cut in area of the July 1 fighting. That soldier was buried in the national cemetery although they could not conclude whether he was a union or confederate soldier. So at least a couple of rebs probably have made it in the national cemetery. I believe Richard Nixon's great grandfather is there as well - if anyone cares. Another random note about the GB national cemetery is that Lincoln's address did not occur there as most people suspect - even those that visit. It was actually in the adjacent Evergreen cemetery.

If you live near Richmond, I can't recommend enough a trip to Hollywood Cemetery. 18,000 confederate dead and lots of other notables. In addition, the confederate white house, Edgar Allen Poe house and many other historical sites. Also, just smell the tobacco in the air. I ate in a cuban restaurant if you can believe that the one time I visited.

 

[Tex]

ate in a cuban restaurant if you can believe that the one time I visited.

Can't beat a Cuban sandwich!

I once visited some cemeteries at Petersburg. Very somber mood, but good to pay respects.

 

[UKReb]

Ron-
I believe all the southern dead that could be located were returned in the 1870's. Not sure of the total number. It must have been a very difficult job and a somber procession back home. It was a bit of a sore point that the union soldiers were buried in the national cemetery and the confederates just wherever they fell.

A little known fact guys, that apart from the body burials after the battle, was the number of amputated limbs from both the Union and Confederate soldiers cut off by the surgeons in the field hospitals that were hastily set up during the three days of fighting. These were left in piles and reportedly numbered as over 2000 repeat 2000 arms and legs, they were not removed by the Union clear-up brigades and the good people of Gettysburg were left with the odious task of removing them from their property and interring them themselves.
Reb

 

[UKReb]

Let talk about ANTIETAM !

The first modern weapons battle of the Civil War ! When I say that I mean here was the first time where Napoleonic Military Tactics ran smack against Modern Artillery Weapons and Infantry Rifles in Unit movements.

The First Battle of Bull Run really didnt have the terrible effect of these two forces coming together - like Antietam (or Sharpesburg for those of the Southern view)

UK Reb how should we go about this discussion of my favorite battle. Start with each phase of the day?

The Battle of Antietam was great for many reasons for historians. 1) Large Unit Movements and deadly exchanges. 2) The Tactic used and responses from each sides leaders. 3) The stories of how Napoleon Tactics suffered under Modern Weapons. 4) The politics surrounding the Invasion and the retreat. - oh, I could go on and on.

Well - that should start the ball rolling!!

Ron
I'll kick the ball up the field to start but before we get into the machinations of the battle I would just like to put in perspective what was happening in the Confederacy prior to Lee's invasion of Maryland which is/was very relevant when every student of the war gets completely overawed by the brilliance of Marse Robert.

Longstreet wrote in his memoirs that in the late summer of '62 "...we had the most brilliant prospects the Confederacy ever had".
His optimism was understandable. The successes achieved by Lee's army beginning with the Seven Days and ending with the thrashing of Pope's army at Second Manassas would have, under any circumstances, been impressive; but the morale and political impact of Lee's victories were magnified far beyond their military significance because they stood in stark contrast to the seemingly unending series of military setbacks and defeats that plagued the Confederacy from the end of 1861.
Lee's campaigns had, quite literally, breathed new life into fading Southern hopes for independence.

By the early spring of 1862 Union forces in the West had several significant victories in the field. They had maneuvered the Confederates out of Kentucky, overrun central and western Tennessee, captured Nashville and Memphis, easily routed the Rebel forces at Forts Henry & Donelson, defeated and killed Sidney Johnston at Shiloh, defeated Van Dorn at Pea Ridge, pushed Beauregard from Corinth and captured New Orleans.

Apologies for bolding the above but many devotees tend to forget that the Western theatre during Lee's victories in the East was already a disaster for the Confederates that continued to get progressively worse as the war went on, regardless of Lee's Eastern efforts.
Reb

 

[Shiloh]

The reburial of Union dead took place on most every major battlefield. While the Confederate dead were not. At Shiloh the Union dead were moved to the national cemetary while the CSA dead still lie in 5 burial trenches upon the battlefield. This is not just a case of to the victor goes the spoils. The CSA did not maintain very good pay records and a lot of the troops could neither read nor write. It is very hard to identify an individual who has no paybook, personal letters or his name written on his equipment. In some cases the bones had to gathered up and placed in the trenches becasue of hasty battlefield burials. They would just throw the dead in a ravine or gully and put a thin layer of earth to keep the smell down. The rain and animals would eventually expose the bones and they would have to be buried usually years later.