The FW 190..beautiful but by no means perfect. (1 Viewer)

[maddadicus]

You could say the same about your threads about CS scale issue

My issue there was the size of the vehicles that did not look right playing with others. I did not like the colors of either, or camo scheme on the Panzer 4. All those opinions still represent me as a card carrying member of " it sure looks pretty club.." and not the anything missing clan
SO THERE!...mICHAEL

 

[Rob]

For me accuracy is about common sense. If I was offered a Spitfire in yellow and orange camo scheme then of course I would not buy it, but if there is three rivets missing from a tailfin then yes I will still buy it. I will not cut off my nose to spite my face and not own a fine model for the sake of obsessing about three rivets. Each to their own of course, but I will not allow the rivet counting obsession to spoil my hobby, I enjoy it too much.

Rob

 

[maddadicus]

maddadaicus...

I think sensible critique is definately needed as you say some may not care about fifty rivets but, thats not what is being critiqued its errors in design features some big some less so and, it is unrealistic to expect to be paying the high prices that are asked by manufacturers and not to expect the best and most accurate representation possible for that money and when highlighted not debated. To not do so would make a lop sided hobby where everything is believed to be rosy when sometimes its not.

Now, there are some who like to have a dig for digs sake but, one can easily tell that from proper critique and, these sites are not just for the ooohs and aaahs about releases they are important for many who hold stock on the debates about the negatives that do happen in all manufacturers products.
Mitch

Mitch, the problem is that there are attack dogs from most mfg. collecting groups who never buy anything from XYZ mfg. no matter, that like to have a go at winding folks up. There are members that I trust here, for accuracy because they represent themselves in all threads like this with no obvious bias or record of incendiary comments. Truth be known, I cringe that any mfg. with all the wealth of knowledge and technology out there to get it right, cannot. But, fortunately, most of the ,I guess ,offending flaws are never enough to override my personal opinion for liking to buy something...Michael

 

[uksubs]

For me accuracy is about common sense. If I was offered a Spitfire in yellow and orange camo scheme then of course I would not buy it, but if there is three rivets missing from a tailfin then yes I will still buy it. I will not cut off my nose to spite my face and not own a fine model for the sake of obsessing about three rivets. Each to their own of course, but I will not allow the rivet counting obsession to spoil my hobby, I enjoy it too much.

Rob

I think you make a good point Rob

 

[jazzeum]

I am sorry to see the direction that this thread is headed and I'm sure our new member had no idea what would happen when he initially started this thread. However, he does seem to take a common sense approach to the issue.

In addition, my apologies to all members and K & C if I abetted this direction in any way.

Moreover, we had an extensive thread so I'm not sure why another one is needed.

Substantively, I'm with Rob on this one. Perfection is the goal but sometimes not reached. I would gather that many of us would not know about certain defects in our models and still be happy with them once we knew.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

It's easy to criticise, but some of the critics might better appreciate how difficult it can be to get everything right if they tried assisting in the design of a model, it's features and painting/unit markings. These features change quickly and often during a war. Documentation is frequently missing or contadictory.

And to be commercially successful, some features/parts are eliminated or upscaled due to fragility or cost. The model/markings need to be specific enough to be historical, but not so much they limit the sales because the model is too specific. There is more than one group of buyer, each with very different and often contradictory criteria for buying a model.

Some errors are truly mistakes and should not happen. Others are not true errors but are compromises or choices that had to be made. Does anyone believe that a single version of a model can represent an entire period from D-Day to the end of the war on different fronts like the Eastern and Western fronts and Italy?

Terry

 

[IXEC]

Aye Aye....

Someone else has spoted them. Its like Jaws... Just when you thought it was safe to go in the air... faults II the revenge.

Will look forward to this debate
Mitch

Heeerrrre's.......JOHNNY......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvCI-gNK_y4

 

[IXEC]

I am sorry to see the direction that this thread is headed and I'm sure our new member had no idea what would happen when he initially started this thread. However, he does seem to take a common sense approach to the issue.

In addition, my apologies to all members and K & C if I abetted this direction in any way.

Moreover, we had an extensive thread so I'm not sure why another one is needed.

Substantively, I'm with Rob on this one. Perfection is the goal but sometimes not reached. I would gather that many of us would not know about certain defects in our models and still be happy with them once we knew.

IXEC:.. You brought me back. Your love brought me back. Back to where you are now. In the land of dreams.

BRAD:... Are you a dream Merlin?

IXEC:.... [softly] A dream to some.

[Yelling]

IXEC...... A nightmare to others.

 

[Mitch]

Thing is I have said many times these models cost a lot of money for people and, sensibly nobody expects perfection what should be the case is that if a set is described as a certain model then it should as far as can be replicated represent that model. Some of the sets we critique are not exactly rare in WWII etc and there is a plethora of technical data etc available Tiger 1 and II tanks and FW190 just to mention three.

Nobody is looking at sets deliberately for faults well, I am certainly not but, you don't have to be a rivet counter to see clearly certain things and, if this is not the arena to air those then where is??

I also certainly on that vain don't think that if a thread has been discussed once it should not be re-addressed should posters wish again, the belief that we should just read previous is not the way an active forum should proceed as again, new members come in and wish to address these issues. That is why we are here again and, not precipitated by any one poster.

I do agree that none of the errors are sufficient to stop the majority from buying the sets and contrary to the term ''rivet counters'' I have yet to see a issue with any manufacturers be about less rivets than should be they always seem rather larger than this somewhat flippent remark. How many of us have watched a war film and said to themselves or our loved ones.. that is an american half track being portrayed as a german one or this or that is not right?? its the same with the hobby but, a lot of people know who do it for kicks and who do not.

More and more people ask for better detail and are becoming more aware of what things should be like and manufacturers have to be at the top of their game at all times and sometimes they are not but, it would be a poorer hobby IMO if we were not allowed to express the negatives of the hobby.
Mitch

 

[jazzeum]

Whatever dude

Have fun on this thread

 

[Mitch]

I don't know what that was for???. If people wish to discuss the pro's and cons of the sets then they should and however the discussion progresses is how it should be.

Just as we are told not to buy what we don't like then, we have the same option not to partake in threads we don't like or have no interest in due to the fact that they have been discussed before.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

I have often thought that if someone says to me ' if you don't like it, don't buy it ' I wouldn't be the slightest bit offended. This is because it seems common sense , I mean not just in TS's but in many things, cars for instance or whiskies ( ok not many I dont like I grant you but you get my point) so I just don't buy them. None of us are forced to buy anything, so it perplexes me sometimes when some folk get so worked up about a product they don't have to buy. But whatever floats your own boat

Rob

 

[wwiibuff]

I've been reading this thread with interest on how everyone views the topic of accuracy in a model. I can appreciate lots of different viewpoints and that not eveyone looks at it the same. I don't really accept the phrase "if you don't like it don't buy it" as a "catch all" for arguing against someone who wants to critique a certain model. After all, we are talking about models that sell for around $200+/-. For that much money, I believe the manufacturer has a responsibility to produce a model as accurately as possible. This is done most of the time, but there have been times where a significant mistake was made and with minimal research could have been avoided. This is where it becomes a problem for me. If I was buying a plastic tank at the department store for 10 or even 20 dollars that was advertized as a Sherman tank and it basically looked like a Sherman tank, no problem. I just expect for an expensive collector's piece (not a toy) that it be right (some minor mistakes being acceptable). And like I said, this is usually the case, but not always. Anyway, I agree with you Mitch about being able to discuss the shortcomings of any particular model and also about holding accuracy to a high standard for the price.

 

[cnq]

I've been reading this thread with interest on how everyone views the topic of accuracy in a model. I can appreciate lots of different viewpoints and that not eveyone looks at it the same. I don't really accept the phrase "if you don't like it don't buy it" as a "catch all" for arguing against someone who wants to critique a certain model. After all, we are talking about models that sell for around $200+/-. For that much money, I believe the manufacturer has a responsibility to produce a model as accurately as possible. This is done most of the time, but there have been times where a significant mistake was made and with minimal research could have been avoided. This is where it becomes a problem for me. If I was buying a plastic tank at the department store for 10 or even 20 dollars that was advertized as a Sherman tank and it basically looked like a Sherman tank, no problem. I just expect for an expensive collector's piece (not a toy) that it be right (some minor mistakes being acceptable). And like I said, this is usually the case, but not always. Anyway, I agree with you Mitch about being able to discuss the shortcomings of any particular model and also about holding accuracy to a high standard for the price.

I agree with you bud. We are paying premium price for these collector items and manufacturers should try to make them as accuracy as possible ( of course within common sense)....

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

The term don't buy if you don't like does not really annoy me as at its crux its basically correct but, it is used on here as a nullification of debate ranging from quality and historical correctness to price.

My issue with it when its railed out is that its used primarily to dead end debate that some believe is either not necessary or unworthy. Every debate about cost when prices are as high as they are and quality again, linked to price and collectors expectations of quality matching the price is worthy of debate.

It may not be the type of thread people want to see but, its an intrinsic part of the hobby and, many on here find the nitty gritty of the sets released by all manufacturers both positive and negative from the feed back from debates on forums like this.

You often learn more from things in general I find when negatives are expressed than from people saying everything is fine. Speaking for myself I think I am 50/50 and will back up any critique I have with explanations that does not mean I enjoy the hobby any less than anyone else or, want to rain on anyones parade but, I would hope that there would be people who would do this type of critique if I were unaware of issues especially in this type of rather expensive ''niche'' hobby.

Thats my take on the don't buy if you dont like expressed by some on here
Mitch

 

[Rob]

I've been reading this thread with interest on how everyone views the topic of accuracy in a model. I can appreciate lots of different viewpoints and that not eveyone looks at it the same. I don't really accept the phrase "if you don't like it don't buy it" as a "catch all" for arguing against someone who wants to critique a certain model. After all, we are talking about models that sell for around $200+/-. For that much money, I believe the manufacturer has a responsibility to produce a model as accurately as possible. This is done most of the time, but there have been times where a significant mistake was made and with minimal research could have been avoided. This is where it becomes a problem for me. If I was buying a plastic tank at the department store for 10 or even 20 dollars that was advertized as a Sherman tank and it basically looked like a Sherman tank, no problem. I just expect for an expensive collector's piece (not a toy) that it be right (some minor mistakes being acceptable). And like I said, this is usually the case, but not always. Anyway, I agree with you Mitch about being able to discuss the shortcomings of any particular model and also about holding accuracy to a high standard for the price.

Ah, but where do we draw the line between between minor and major mistakes is the question?. One persons minor mistake is often a rivet counters huge error. Also re the $200 Tank, at the risk of repeating myself I have to say again that K&C don't hold a gun to anyones head to buy their product, if you see a product you don't like you simply don't buy it. People also talk about the production of these things in a very dismissive way sometimes as if the whole process was akin to making a sandwhich. None of us (or very few anyway) have any idea what goes on behind the scene in some of the major players and I'm sure the whole process is not as simple as we may think.

One final point. I'm quite sure some posts in the past are not born out of a genuine desire for perfection, more a desire to ruin an enjoyable discussion about the enjoyment of the product, just my view you understand

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob....

I popped a post in before seeing yours. but, your point about where do we draw the line is pertinent as the line is drawn wherever the debate ends there does not have to be a definitive answer to the question as the forum allows debate about products but, it allows collectors of all levels to have there say about a product and, to learn more about that product maybe, before they part with their hard earned money. Thats got to be a good thing and should never be stopped because some don't like repetitve threads.

It does not matter to me whether this type of thread is repeated every day as long as someone gains from it and, from debates like this you do learn more than boringly looking at old threads.
Mitch

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

I agree and from my first time on here its very easy to identify who wishes to just have a pop for the sake of it and, when this has happened they get what they deserve and that goes for any manufacturers thread. I have no interest or understanding why some would do this that is for them to fathom.

All I am saying is that its obvious and acceptable that there will be a celebration of the manufacturers products in respective threads but, genuine critique is very important for collectors and manufacturers and, should in reality, be embraced as much as the positives.

Thats why I have said consistantly that mature critique is important and should not be curtailed.
Mitch

But there are many occasions when negativity is used to ruin a perfectly enjoyable thread in which people want to celebrate a product without it being hijacked by nay sayers all the time. And this is where 'Don't like don't buy' is perfectly acceptable to me, these people have no intention of buying the product (and probably never did before they even saw it) but are set upon ruining others enjoyment , on these occasions I will happily use it.

You said something earlier to the effect that these threads are not all about flag waving etc, but it is perfectly acceptable to do that here as this is the K&C area, where fans of the product are allowed to do so without upsetting fans of other producers and vice versa. If we say ' you can't celebrate your product ' here you are in effect saying we are not allowed to celebrate our product anywhere because it upsets those who don't like it..and that would be absurd.

The whole idea of different threads for different producers is so that each producer has an area where their fans can communicate with each other, and whilst criticism is of course perfectly valid, some people need to accept that by their very nature these areas emphasis will always be on the positive ,after all no one wants an 'Anti' producer thread.

Rob

 

[Rob]

Yep I agree Mitch. These threads have plenty of room for both celebration and critique. I also agree re other producers threads, I may be a flag waver or ra ra for one company (and have been called a lot worse in another place by one member) but am not in the habit of going onto another producers thread to wind up fans of said company. Its just not Cricket....that we appear to be doing very well at right now...sorry Wayne

Rob

 

[wwiibuff]

Rob,

Hey, I'm a K&C fan 100% and cheer them all the time. I also have an extensive K&C collection. But I also know that they have made a few mistakes here and there that have been disappointing to me and I feel it is okay for people to speak up if they have something they don't like about a certain piece. The phrase from your thread "And this is where 'Don't like don't buy' is perfectly acceptable to me, these people have no intention of buying the product (and probably never did before they even saw it) but are set upon ruining others enjoyment , on these occasions I will happily use it." would not be true in my case as before when I had a problem with the Firefly, I had been waiting for a Firefly for a long time and when it finally came out, there were a couple of issues I felt I couldn't live with so I didn't buy it. I wanted to buy it (and might still yet if I break down) but didn't. It is a great looking model to the eye, and for probably 95% or so of collector's, no problem. Anyway, expressing disappointment occasionally by a true K&C collector should always be welcome, even on the K&C thread list. Anyway, these are my thoughts and don't take it wrong, you seem like a great guy mate!