The Little Bighorn (3 Viewers)

UKReb said:
Rob

A set of books on the whole war I would recommend Bruce Catton's trilogy that was written in the 1960's and known as The Centennial History of the ACW.

Book 1. The Coming Fury-covers the causes and the coming of the war.

Book 2. Terrible Swift Sword-Victories and defeats as both sides fully mobilize their civilian armies.

Book 3. Never Call Retreat- Total war culminating at Appomattox.

For the novice student (no disrespect) I consider these- even though 40 years in print as the best starter pack-they are beautifully written almost in a style of prose tinged with a sadness the author must have felt for this dreadful war that descended upon the States. But more importantly extremely easy to digest without getting into the gritty details of which regiment went where and whose artillery was over there (that comes later after you get to grips on what the hell this war-and being civil the worst kind of war- was all about.)

I re-read them every couple of years and still learn a few things that I had missed or forgotten Plus the good thing Rob you really can pick all three up for pennies on Amazon. Shouldn't be allowed:D

I also like Shelby Foote's series but there is a definite leaning to the Southern Cause and being a Reb is right up my street-but Catton's works are spot on the nail with an unbiased analysis throughout all three books. Well recommended.

As a side bar he eventually won a Pulitzer Prize for his brilliant book on Grant's Overland Campaign which I use as a reference for the diaries dios called "A Stillness at Appomattox"

Hope that helps but if need be will talk further with you next Saturday at the London Show.

Bob
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Brilliant mate,much appreciated.The Catton trilogy sounds just up my street and i will hunt these down.I have heard of Shelby Foote and of course saw him in the Ken Burns series,he came across as a very proud Reb but i thought he was also fair to the Union side.

On a side note,there are many pieces of music connected to different Wars and the different tv docu's about them.The theme to World at War for WW2 etc and Elgar's Nimrod for WW1 always moves me hugely.But for some reason there seems to be a plethora of very sad music regarding the ACW.The music to Ken Burns series is so moving and somehow hammers home the true sadness of that bloody conflict.There is one scene in which a final letter home to a much loved wife is read out over one of the main theme tunes,even to someone like me that has studied war from the age of about eight it never fails to get me every time.

Sorry i digress!

Look forward to seeing you on Saturday mate

Rob
 
UKReb said:
Rob

A set of books on the whole war I would recommend Bruce Catton's trilogy that was written in the 1960's and known as The Centennial History of the ACW.

Book 1. The Coming Fury-covers the causes and the coming of the war.

Book 2. Terrible Swift Sword-Victories and defeats as both sides fully mobilize their civilian armies.

Book 3. Never Call Retreat- Total war culminating at Appomattox.

For the novice student (no disrespect) I consider these- even though 40 years in print as the best starter pack-they are beautifully written almost in a style of prose tinged with a sadness the author must have felt for this dreadful war that descended upon the States. But more importantly extremely easy to digest without getting into the gritty details of which regiment went where and whose artillery was over there (that comes later after you get to grips on what the hell this war-and being civil the worst kind of war- was all about.)

I re-read them every couple of years and still learn a few things that I had missed or forgotten Plus the good thing Rob you really can pick all three up for pennies on Amazon. Shouldn't be allowed:D

I also like Shelby Foote's series but there is a definite leaning to the Southern Cause and being a Reb is right up my street-but Catton's works are spot on the nail with an unbiased analysis throughout all three books. Well recommended.

As a side bar he eventually won a Pulitzer Prize for his brilliant book on Grant's Overland Campaign which I use as a reference for the diaries dios called "A Stillness at Appomattox"

Hope that helps but if need be will talk further with you next Saturday at the London Show.

Bob
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I agree about Catton's books. Great reads, fairly balanced and like Bob, can read them over and over without losing interest...Michael
 
UKReb said:
Guys

As I have referred to before on here the sheer volume of books on Custer are unbelievable-just try punching in CUSTER on to Amazon and you'll see what I mean.

But beware a hell of a lot of them fall between-the vain glorious fool and the buckskin cavalier. The trick is to be recommended to books that give an unbiased analysis of the fight and the background bearing in mind it is very much today a thorny subject as has been witnessed on this thread.

I have approaching 80 volumes on the fight some good, some very good and some downright awful but my recommendations for an unbiased view and extremely interesting reads -for what it's worth- are the following:-

To Hell with Honor
Red Sabbath
A Terrible Glory
Lakota Noon
A Road We Do Not Know (which is a novel but based on fact not fiction and an excellent volume which I read in one sitting)

As MD has said he is due to visit the battlefield and for any serious student of the fight that's a must to even begin to understand why historians have struggled to comprehend those last 20 minutes or so on the Greasy Grass. When I visited some years ago I half filled a yellow legal pad with copious notes and sketches and when I returned drew it up as my own personal paperback.
To my utter amazement it was published as a kind of mini-travellers report by a Plymouth Publisher as "A Walk With Custer" -which I won't recommend :D

Reb
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Bob, since most of my Custer/ Bighorn reference books are out of print, I am sure that I might be behind the current knowledge curve of the battle. My favorite was always Custer's Luck by Edgar Stewart. Unless they were the archeology or forensic type books, I had been leary of the contemporary books, making the rounds, because of the PC nature of these times as well as the anti Reno/Benteen vs pro Custer or pro Reno/Benteen vs anti Custer nature of just about any Bighorn battle forum. It made me gun shy about the personal rants that pass themselves as absolute knowledge of what actually happened. Even your Terrible Glory has as its promo, The author makes a good case for Custer as scapegoat by portraying him as a likable Civil War hero, flamboyant publicity hound and more experienced Indian fighter than most of his men and all of his commanders,.But I do trust your judgement and which of the 5 would you say, is a must read...Michael
 
Rob said:
Brilliant mate,much appreciated.The Catton trilogy sounds just up my street and i will hunt these down.I have heard of Shelby Foote and of course saw him in the Ken Burns series,he came across as a very proud Reb but i thought he was also fair to the Union side.

On a side note,there are many pieces of music connected to different Wars and the different tv docu's about them.The theme to World at War for WW2 etc and Elgar's Nimrod for WW1 always moves me hugely.But for some reason there seems to be a plethora of very sad music regarding the ACW.The music to Ken Burns series is so moving and somehow hammers home the true sadness of that bloody conflict.There is one scene in which a final letter home to a much loved wife is read out over one of the main theme tunes,even to someone like me that has studied war from the age of about eight it never fails to get me every time.

Sorry i digress!

Look forward to seeing you on Saturday mate

Rob
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Over the years, I have collected CD's and cassettes of the music of the period. Bobby Horton had a series of tapes/cd's out that offered multiple tracks for the songs of the North and South..We also have re-enactor ACW bands and minstrel troupes that hold concerts and sell their offerings. Michael
 
I read the Catton series when I was a kid and liked them but in retrospect, I would say they're just ok history. Now I look at this a little different, as a former would be historian.

I think the best one volume out there is James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom, a deserved winner of the Pulitzer Prize. I'm not big on Shelby Foote as he comes from the Southern point of view and I come from the Northern.

If you want a great multi volume history of the Civil War, read Allen Nevins' Ordeal of the Union. A classic history.

Another great book that I read not too long ago is The Impending Crisis, 1848-1861 by David Potter, a book no library should be without.

If you want to read about Lincoln, you might want to try Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals. She's sort of from the school of Lincoln could do very little wrong, which we know not to be the case but she brings passion to the topic and it's a great book.
 
All the ACW reading suggestions are outstanding. If you have an interest in the northern side, add "This Hallowed Ground" by Catton. You must also read "Lee's Lieutenants" by D.S. Freeman if you are interested in the southern military side. As to Custer, I am ashamed to admit that the last book on LBH that I read was "Son of the Morning Star" which I really enjoyed. How has it held up with all the new research available and what is your opinion of it as history? -- lancer
 
I've never read Freeman but want to. He's the acknowledged expert on General Lee.
 
jazzeum said:
I read the Catton series when I was a kid and liked them but in retrospect, I would say they're just ok history. Now I look at this a little different, as a former would be historian.

I think the best one volume out there is James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom, a deserved winner of the Pulitzer Prize. I'm not big on Shelby Foote as he comes from the Southern point of view and I come from the Northern.

If you want a great multi volume history of the Civil War, read Allen Nevins' Ordeal of the Union. A classic history.

Another great book that I read not too long ago is The Impending Crisis, 1848-1861 by David Potter, a book no library should be without.

If you want to read about Lincoln, you might want to try Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals. She's sort of from the school of Lincoln could do very little wrong, which we know not to be the case but she brings passion to the topic and it's a great book.
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Brad

Agree that MacPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom is a great read and a super one volume history-but would you honestly recommend that to a new student of the war and expect him to finish it?

I am not being facetious or deliberately challenging your choice just curious as I would have placed the MacPherson tome into a student's second year curriculum.

Taking Rob as an example who I consider is without doubt a knowledgeable expert on WWII but by his own admission knows very little about the ACW except what he has picked up on here and the Ken Burns series. I believe he would be more comfortable with an easier read to kick off with plus a volume that he could easily lift :D

Bob
 
Rob,

You can probably get the Catton books on abebooks.com since I believe they are out of print but I know there's a used bookseller near me that has them. It would be my pleasure to get them for you.
 
All this talk about Custer has reminded me of the Son of the Morning Star movie, which I recall as being rather well done. While never released you can get a DVD of it here
http://www.freewebs.com/lostmovies/sonofthemorningstar.htm

Not that it has anything to do with Custer, but if I could now only find "By the Sword", a sleeper French movie that offers some great fencing scenes, something I used to do.
 
jazzeum said:
Rob,

You can probably get the Catton books on abebooks.com since I believe they are out of print but I know there's a used bookseller near me that has them. It would be my pleasure to get them for you.
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Thats very kind of you Brad,i'll check out Amazon UK and if have no luck i'll give you a shout.

Thanks

Rob
 
Thread is wandering here a bit now it seems.

I am riveted to the Custer portion of the LBH battle in "Terrible Glory" at the moment, and struck by the realization of just how much of this story really is based on pure conjecture, though perhaps that is not entirely fair to any Native American accounts of what they'd seen and passed along. Have been thinking of all the previous discusson on this thread as I've been reading and particularly find the possibility of Custer's mortal wounding at the ford intriguing. Imagining his wounded or lifeless body being led back up away from the village and river really changes the scenario drastically. Wonder if this possibility may have affected chances of E and F coys from rejoining Keogh's command a bit further south along the ridge for example.

MD
 
maddadicus said:
Bob, since most of my Custer/ Bighorn reference books are out of print, I am sure that I might be behind the current knowledge curve of the battle. My favorite was always Custer's Luck by Edgar Stewart. Unless they were the archeology or forensic type books, I had been leary of the contemporary books, making the rounds, because of the PC nature of these times as well as the anti Reno/Benteen vs pro Custer or pro Reno/Benteen vs anti Custer nature of just about any Bighorn battle forum. It made me gun shy about the personal rants that pass themselves as absolute knowledge of what actually happened. Even your Terrible Glory has as its promo, The author makes a good case for Custer as scapegoat by portraying him as a likable Civil War hero, flamboyant publicity hound and more experienced Indian fighter than most of his men and all of his commanders,.But I do trust your judgement and which of the 5 would you say, is a must read...Michael
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Michael

My list of Custer books were primarily recommended for the novice such as MD who requested further reading after A Terrible Glory-I definitely wouldn't have you down as a "novice" on this battle-so my list although excellent reads would not be my recommendations for you.


Not knowing the volumes you have in your collection but you state are now out of print-an old publication recently updated that you must read if you haven't already is Utley's:
Custer and the Great Controversy.

As you mentioned soldiers bones at the LBH try They Died with Custer as one reviewer described "Here the bones talk and make one hell of a lot of sense"

But my A+ recommend for you is Custer's Last Campaign by John S Gray who uses a time line system-similar to Michno's Lakota Noon- for those last minutes of the fight without losing-in fact-he deliberately reinstates the basic components of the fight that many other authors have left out. Tingle down the neck stuff-well it was for me. I cannot guarantee it will mesmerise you but I think it will. If it doesn't- I'll post you the cost of the book-seriously;)

Bob
 
UKReb said:
Brad

Agree that MacPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom is a great read and a super one volume history-but would you honestly recommend that to a new student of the war and expect him to finish it?

I am not being facetious or deliberately challenging your choice just curious as I would have placed the MacPherson tome into a student's second year curriculum.

Taking Rob as an example who I consider is without doubt a knowledgeable expert on WWII but by his own admission knows very little about the ACW except what he has picked up on here and the Ken Burns series. I believe he would be more comfortable with an easier read to kick off with plus a volume that he could easily lift :D

Bob
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Bob,

I defer to you but why do you think that? I picked McPherson up when it came out new, not having read Civil War for many a year. I take it you think the Catton would be a better starter for him. I bow down to the master (and I'm not mocking at all but deadly serious) mate.

Who knows, maybe it's time for me to take a look at that again.
 
jazzeum said:
Bob,

I defer to you but why do you think that? I picked McPherson up when it came out new, not having read Civil War for many a year. I take it you think the Catton would be a better starter for him. I bow down to the master (and I'm not mocking at all but deadly serious) mate.

Who knows, maybe it's time for me to take a look at that again.
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Brad I repeat I agree its a compelling historical book-but your knowledge of the war I think far outweighs that of poor old Rob.

Let me simplify that if I can by the opening lines of McPherson's 1000 page tome.

"The hallmark of the United States has been growth-Americans have typically defined this process in quantitive terms"

Now the opening line of Catton's first book in his trilogy The Coming Fury:

"Mr Yancy could easily be found at the Charleston Hotel, always sitting with......"

Now wearing a novice's hat- Which one makes you want to read on?:D:D

Bob
 
I have to be honest, Bruce Catton's trilogy has sat on my grandfather's shelves for years and for whatever reason I have yet to pick them up and read them. I think when I visit this summer I will need to rectify that.
 
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