The Little Bighorn (5 Viewers)

I have found the Time Life series to be useful for specific subjects. The photographs and woodcuts also add interest.

Returning to the LBH and the action at the ford, I would assume that the troopers would have had drawn pistols during this manoevre, the carbines being too cumbersome to be fired while galloping, if Custer was hit at this time it is doubtful if anyone would have bothered fishing around for his pistol. The original course of the stream has changed over the years, does anyone know if there has ever been an intensive metal detector search of this area? I think I am correct in saying that none of Custer's weapons have ever turned up, if one of his distinctive "Bulldog" pistols was found at the ford it would be fairly convincing proof.
 
I have found the Time Life series to be useful for specific subjects. The photographs and woodcuts also add interest.

Returning to the LBH and the action at the ford, I would assume that the troopers would have had drawn pistols during this manoevre, the carbines being too cumbersome to be fired while galloping, if Custer was hit at this time it is doubtful if anyone would have bothered fishing around for his pistol. The original course of the stream has changed over the years, does anyone know if there has ever been an intensive metal detector search of this area? I think I am correct in saying that none of Custer's weapons have ever turned up, if one of his distinctive "Bulldog" pistols was found at the ford it would be fairly convincing proof.

Most Indian accounts state that the Gray Horse E Troop-with F Troop in support (Brule/Cheyenne/San Arcs accounts recall the "pretty white horses" and the noise of bugles) did not reach the river but pulled up sharp-dismounted and fired a number of rounds into the village.

Based on interviews with some Sioux and Cheyenne warriors conducted by Lieutenant Oscar Long of the Fifth Infantry long after the battle do we first hear that the Indians "killed an officer" where Custer made his first stand (or a brave bluff to draw off the Indian from Reno-hence the bugles) near the river. This soldier carried binoculars and a spinning needle in a wooden box-obviously these items were retrieved by the Indian after the battle. But in a seperate account, a Lakota named White Cow Bull, stated "The soldiers came down to [toward] the ford led by one with hairy lip and buckskin jacket on sorrel" The young warrior shot the officer while his companion hit a trooper carrying a guidon.

Now was this Custer? because the other strong contenders could be either Lieutenant Algernon Smith or 2nd Lieutenant James Sturgis (the son of the 7th Cavalry Commander)-strong clues here-Smith's body would be found on Last Stand Hill and not with the rest of E Troop and young Sturgis's body would never be found.

The column (remember this was the left wing) remounted and moved northward across the high ground separating Medicine Tail and Deep Coulees-Meanwhile the right wing- which could have included Custer if he was not shot at the ford-are fighting a rear guard action as the Indian strength increases. They paused and possibly dismounted at a place that today is called Luce Ridge-roughly opposite Weir Point. This ridge was named after Edward Luce, who as Superintendent of the Custer Battlefield in the 1930/40's here discovered dozens of empty cartridges from the cavalry's trapdoor carbines, the cases were found in piles, indicating some kind of skirmish line. Luce's discovery of exactly 48 shells at regular intervals suggests that the column engaged was Keogh's Company L who were exactly 48 strong and was by experience the most formidable troop in the Keogh battalion.

I only mention the above to illustrate that there are as many doubters that Custer was shot at the ford as there are who believe he was. The sterling rear-guard action sounds like a Custer order but also Keogh was a darn fine cavalry officer-someone made an overall decision to throw out a skirmish line to protect the left wing and Luce's discovery shows that L Troop had not yet received a single casualty. Soon after this action total disintegration of the command occurred.

I have never read that Custer's guns were found, however Keogh's pistol and watch fob were traded at a Canadian sutler post in 1879. And here's another of those puzzling but interesting side-bars-when Keogh's body was stripped by either the Indian or their squaws-his Roman Catholic Papal medallion (presented to him by Pope Pius IX when he served in his Papal Guard) was left around his neck. That is extremely odd because the Indian took everything from an enemy's body but this medallion was encased in a leather fob-so apparently for some reason it was bad medicine to the Indian.

Reb
 
Darn you, Bob..just when I convince myself of the Custer shot at the ford theory, the other 2 candidates mentioned could also fit. How likely would it have been for Custer to be in front at a ford, without a troop thrown forward for support..I would have to look for the wound report on Smith. The Sturgis idea might make sense that he fell dead at the ford and thus was not found with the 7th's group remains..As to Keough, his body was found with his knee shattered, surrounded by his sgts. and most of his men. Would, at the face of it, seem to be a determined stand till overwhelmed..The sgts. would not have abandoned their officer if he was wounded and still in the fight...I agree that one of those Bulldogs found at the ford would be a coup..Michael
 
With his saber yet.:eek:

Bob or someone, can you tell me why the 7th was deprived of their sabers for this campaign and was that unique to their unit or the time or what?

I read that in order to maintain noise discipline. Bugle calls were not to be used either. They wanted to be able to surprise the indians' encampment. Only when Custer thought himself discovered did he have his buglers sound off..Michael
 
With his saber yet.:eek:

Bob or someone, can you tell me why the 7th was deprived of their sabers for this campaign and was that unique to their unit or the time or what?
I have read that in addition to noise discipline, sabers were often left behind because they were pretty useless against indians. Closing to a distance to use sabers was almost impossible and who wouldn't prefer a pistol? Also, the sabers were not of much good for anything else on campaign, so the extra weight was just left behind. Common sense seemed to have been used in relation to the swords. -- lancer
 
I have read that in addition to noise discipline, sabers were often left behind because they were pretty useless against indians. Closing to a distance to use sabers was almost impossible and who wouldn't prefer a pistol? Also, the sabers were not of much good for anything else on campaign, so the extra weight was just left behind. Common sense seemed to have been used in relation to the swords. -- lancer
The noise I understand, although the idea of a detachment of cavalry sneaking up on Indians seems a tad odd to me. Obviously a saber is of no use if your attacker is out of reach but surely that did not always happen and it fact it would seem, with hindsight of course, that they would have been quite useful when closed on at LBH. Naturally a pistol is better but was that the choice? I always thought they carried both.
 
The noise I understand, although the idea of a detachment of cavalry sneaking up on Indians seems a tad odd to me. Obviously a saber is of no use if your attacker is out of reach but surely that did not always happen and it fact it would seem, with hindsight of course, that they would have been quite useful when closed on at LBH. Naturally a pistol is better but was that the choice? I always thought they carried both.
The troopers probably were issued with both but I doubt the under-trained troopers would have been much good with the sword (which takes a good deal of skill to use effectively) and I do not believe that hand to hand combat was a major contribution to Custer's defeat at LBH. I believe that most of the casualties were inflicted by gun fire before the Indians closed in to finish the survivors off. At least this is my memory of the books I have read. -lancer
 
Some other hints that maybe Custer wasn't shot early. They say when they found Custer's body he was propped up in more a less a seated position supported by two dead troopers and that he was surrounded by numerous empty shell casings and least some were from his sporting rifle. What does this mean? Not much fact wise, but it would seem to me from this description that he didn't die early, at least not before the two troopers he was propped up against.
 
Very interesting, has anyone read a copy of the offical action report from the

Army? I wonder if one still exists.
 
With his saber yet.:eek:

Bob or someone, can you tell me why the 7th was deprived of their sabers for this campaign and was that unique to their unit or the time or what?

As others have stated Bill they were left behind due to reducing the weight being carried by their nags-and clinking of sabres (English spelling by the way) against horse furniture could be heard for quite a distance on the plains.

But your other comment is interesting I recall some years ago reading either a magazine article or someone's dissertation entitled:-

Was the Battle of the Little Big Horn Lost by the Want of a Saber.

I don't recall all of the body of the work or even the conclusions drawn but it's still an interesting subject. The Cavalry saber was a darn fine lethal weapon and had served Custer and his Wolverines well in the ACW. Skill and experience was indeed required when clashing with another horse soldier but many a skull was cleaved in half when administered to a foot soldier attempting to unhorse a cavalryman. But after a decade of chasing Indians and rarely catching them Custer was not alone in the US Army believing the saber had had it's day and it's main function by 1876 was seen as no more than a ceremonial accoutrement. He wanted nothing to delay him on this expedition so it became a casualty as did the gatling guns to make way for more personal carbine and handgun ammunition.

Now on reflection and with hindsight would sabers have helped Custer on the greasy grass? Perhaps not with what happened to his 5 companys once they split from Reno. But sabers may well have increased Reno's confidence when he charged the village-all his troopers had as a weapon were the six shot Colts-impossible to use a carbine and reload at a full gallop and when the Colt was emptied what else did the troopers have-what he really needed was 3 company's of Lancers-simply because this time the Indian did not run-they stood and fought. I believe the saber could have been put to good use that Sunday.

Reb
 
Some other hints that maybe Custer wasn't shot early. They say when they found Custer's body he was propped up in more a less a seated position supported by two dead troopers and that he was surrounded by numerous empty shell casings and least some were from his sporting rifle. What does this mean? Not much fact wise, but it would seem to me from this description that he didn't die early, at least not before the two troopers he was propped up against.

I think you're forgetting one important factor in your analysis Ed. They were stripped naked therefore some movement of the bodies by the Indian to remove the jackets/shirts and pants would have to have been necessary. How Terry's men found the bodies is a fair bet that they were not their death positions.

Reb
 
I think you're forgetting one important factor in your analysis Ed. They were stripped naked therefore some movement of the bodies by the Indian to remove the jackets/shirts and pants would have to have been necessary. How Terry's men found the bodies is a fair bet that they were not their death positions.

Reb

Reb,

What about finding shell casings from Custer's own sporting rifle next to the body? These are a pretty strong indication that Custer was able to fire his weapon (and therefore conscious and aware) late in the battle (as I would doubt another trooper would think [or have the guts] to take Custer's private weapon).
 
Good point Bob, now wasn't the stripping usually done by the old men and squaws? Now Custer weighed what 170 pounds, which would be 170 pounds of pardon the pun dead weight, now how strong were those rascally women?
 
Reb,

What about finding shell casings from Custer's own sporting rifle next to the body? These are a pretty strong indication that Custer was able to fire his weapon (and therefore conscious and aware) late in the battle (as I would doubt another trooper would think [or have the guts] to take Custer's private weapon).
True, but his brother might and if he was dead, he probably wouldn't object too much.
 
Reb,

What about finding shell casings from Custer's own sporting rifle next to the body? These are a pretty strong indication that Custer was able to fire his weapon (and therefore conscious and aware) late in the battle (as I would doubt another trooper would think [or have the guts] to take Custer's private weapon).

Louis

A valid point that tends to prove he was alive rather than shot at the river. however, his sporting rifle was always tied in position across his saddle pummel so unless he was firing across the river it's a fair bet it would have remained in position. When they got to the ridge horses were shot to form a barricade-ammunition running out- any of the officers who died with Custer could and would have used it rather than stand on ceremony with Crazy Horse charging at you :D

Reb
 
Very interesting, has anyone read a copy of the offical action report from the

Army? I wonder if one still exists.

John

Yes I have read Terry's official report and in some places it bears little resemblance on what we know today. He along with Sheridan; Sherman and President Grant were quite happy and relieved to let Custer take the fall-"dead men tell no tales" as they say-likewise they were also very quiet when people started accusing Reno and Benteen of cowardice and leaving their commander to perish on the field and had no intention of opening a court of inquiry into whether Reno faltered in his actions. It got so untenable for Reno that he demanded a civil inquiry to try and clear his name-officially the army was not involved.

The bottom line is the whole campaign was an ill conceived slap-dash plan quickly put together by Sheridan with input from Sherman and alas the Army concept of ACYA (Always Cover Your A##) with one's regiment coming first was very much alive and well in 1876 as it most probably still is today.

Reb
 
The Histroy International Channel, is showing, "The Little Big Horn: The Untold Story" I have not watched it yet I am recording it.

It is set to replay at 1:00 am (CST).

Not sure if it will be Pro or Anti Custer, I hope it will tell what happened with no particular political axe to grind.
 
The Histroy International Channel, is showing, "The Little Big Horn: The Untold Story" I have not watched it yet I am recording it.

It is set to replay at 1:00 am (CST).

Not sure if it will be Pro or Anti Custer, I hope it will tell what happened with no particular political axe to grind.

Thanks for the tip. I'll be adding this to the recording queue. :)

Cheers,
MD
 

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