The Little Bighorn (2 Viewers)

maddadicus said:
I am most confused by the totally contradictory nature of transcripts and after action reports from officers and men that survived with Reno/Benteen. You would be hard pressed to find any consenus among the " remembered details " of any moment at that time..Allowing that some witnesses may have had an agenda ,if you throw out their opinions and stick with the rest of the observations, you are still no where near common ground. Archeology and forensics( past, present and future )might be the only reasonable way to guesstimate this battle...Michael
Click to expand...
That is a good point on the fog of war but it is not only war that makes eye witness observations suspect. The fact that different people honestly see the same events differently is well documented. The FBI, among others, has training exercises that demonstrate that phenomenon even for trained observers, which none of these really were. It is also well known that the more stressful and dramatic the events or the circumstances surrounding the observations, the less reliable the observations. The conditions at LBH were obviously very confused and more than a little stressful for all involved. So even without any agenda or the encouragement of those investigating to see things a certain way, it should be expected that the reports would be conflicting. How to judge which is the most reliable is a classic "cold case" investigation quandry. I fully appreciate Bob's fascination with this mystery.
 
Mister Dave said:
Yes, Bob, the Curly story sounds more consistent with the generally accepted version of things, and you are correct I think in your id of the book and it's author. The programme was quite clear, however, about the 3 scouts that Curtis was getting information from and Curly was not among them. (Was Curly still alive in 1905?) Hairy Moccasin was one of the three and the the other two's names escape me at the mo. According to Curtis, he was told of Custer himself and his staff directly observing Reno's retreat and "could have ridden to his assistance within 5 minutes ride from the point of observation." The program eventually claims that then pres. TR persuaded him not to include this in his book, which he did not. An interesting twist I thought.

MD
Click to expand...

One of the other scouts was "White Man Runs Him".
 
Mister Dave said:
Yes, Bob, the Curly story sounds more consistent with the generally accepted version of things, and you are correct I think in your id of the book and it's author. The programme was quite clear, however, about the 3 scouts that Curtis was getting information from and Curly was not among them. (Was Curly still alive in 1905?) Hairy Moccasin was one of the three and the the other two's names escape me at the mo. According to Curtis, he was told of Custer himself and his staff directly observing Reno's retreat and "could have ridden to his assistance within 5 minutes ride from the point of observation." The program eventually claims that then pres. TR persuaded him not to include this in his book, which he did not. An interesting twist I thought.

MD
Click to expand...

What we need here Dave is a time line not that any of the officers watches were synchronized or even accurate-but using the nearest times as recorded Reno started his advance down the valley at 1505 hrs- as they trotted forward, Reno's troopers caught glimpses of the grey-horse troop across the river on the bluffs (this was recorded after the battle by Reno survivors) some even claimed they saw Custer high on the bluff waving his hat apparently urging them on. Reno was advancing two companys abreast in line, one in the rear. As they charged all three came abreast- at 1515 hrs Reno has stopped his charge dismounts battalion forms a skirmish line. Custer and Cooke from Weir's point see Reno skirmishing-not retreating- Custer continues to move north believing that Reno is engaging the Indian. Reno retreats to the timber tree line at 1530hrs. Boyer and Curley see Reno's rout across the river and report it to Custer at 1600hrs. at 1610 E & F troop recon or bluff down Medicine Tail Coulee.

The Crow scouts with Custer were as Louis stated White Man Runs Him, Goes Ahead and Curly. Those with Reno were Half Yellow Face and White Swan. Their interpretation of Custer watching Reno being half annihilated is slightly suspect due to the above time line-however in 1908 Custer was a great American hero and TR decision is understandable.

Interesting also that Curtis never interviewed Curly who lived until May 1923 residing on the Crow Reservation as he would have told a different yarn. When you get to the Custer battlefield Dave you'll note Curly's grave as he is buried there.

Bob
 
maddadicus said:
I am most confused by the totally contradictory nature of transcripts and after action reports from officers and men that survived with Reno/Benteen. You would be hard pressed to find any consenus among the " remembered details " of any moment at that time..Allowing that some witnesses may have had an agenda ,if you throw out their opinions and stick with the rest of the observations, you are still no where near common ground. Archeology and forensics( past, present and future )might be the only reasonable way to guesstimate this battle...Michael
Click to expand...


Understand your frustration Michael but both Benteen and Reno were not very likeable persons-Benteen was full of viscious bile originally spewed over Custer but also over quite a few of the remaining 7th officers and not just the Custerphiles who were in the main dead and left on the battlefield.

Reno on the other hand had been a sallow man from a West Point cadet and throughout the civil war and frontier appointments. Although brevet promoted during the war he served primarily as a general staff officer. He was utterly humorless and friendless throughout his life- a real manic depressive-I tell a lie the only recorded friend he had was the painter James Whistler who was a cadet in Reno's class but was thrown out of West Point for flunking his exams and years after at a function Whistler said to Reno
"Marcus if Silicon had been a gas I would have been by now a general in the army"
To which Reno replied
"But James if you had no one would have known your mother"
Whistler stated it was the only joke Reno ever made in his life but he was sure Reno did not realise it was a joke. He was deadly serious.

The point of the above is that although history has not been kind to either man-they were loathed by a number of their colleagues and at the inquiry I believe the differences in "remembered details" from some officers was a disguised way-without letting down the glorious reputation of the 7th Cavalry regiment-of deliberately confusing the defense because they were not allowed to tell what they knew especially about Reno hill. And without doubt Reno and Benteen lied within their testimony-Fact! with what we know now. Maybe if Captain Weir had been alive at the time of the inquiry history dictates that he was an honest man who never recovered for not going to Custer's aid. He just may have given a more truthful testimony.

Reb
 
Guys

Well I waited and waited so I had better post this that today is the anniversary of the battle we've all been talking about for weeks

133 Years ago this very day-by my time 1930 hrs Custer was dead.:eek:

Reb
 
Spitfrnd said:
Well why not just ignore whatever you like of any thread? Either it is of some interest to you or evokes some peceived need for comment or not. Surely each of us is free to chose that for themselves.

I am not sure that our educators have given any given generation an undue critical sense of American history. There is plenty of any nation's history to be critical about and ours is no different. I do not think we need dwell on our examples of poor behavior but judging from the responses in this thread, some qualifying as outright denial, I'd say it remains useful to bring them up from time to time. Less we forget has more than one meaning.
Click to expand...

.......................................................

I usually try to.....sometimes it is so ridiculous its impossible to ignore.:D
 
UKReb said:
Understand your frustration Michael but both Benteen and Reno were not very likeable persons-Benteen was full of viscious bile originally spewed over Custer but also over quite a few of the remaining 7th officers and not just the Custerphiles who were in the main dead and left on the battlefield.

Reno on the other hand had been a sallow man from a West Point cadet and throughout the civil war and frontier appointments. Although brevet promoted during the war he served primarily as a general staff officer. He was utterly humorless and friendless throughout his life- a real manic depressive-I tell a lie the only recorded friend he had was the painter James Whistler who was a cadet in Reno's class but was thrown out of West Point for flunking his exams and years after at a function Whistler said to Reno
"Marcus if Silicon had been a gas I would have been by now a general in the army"
To which Reno replied
"But James if you had no one would have known your mother"
Whistler stated it was the only joke Reno ever made in his life but he was sure Reno did not realise it was a joke. He was deadly serious.

The point of the above is that although history has not been kind to either man-they were loathed by a number of their colleagues and at the inquiry I believe the differences in "remembered details" from some officers was a disguised way-without letting down the glorious reputation of the 7th Cavalry regiment-of deliberately confusing the defense because they were not allowed to tell what they knew especially about Reno hill. And without doubt Reno and Benteen lied within their testimony-Fact! with what we know now. Maybe if Captain Weir had been alive at the time of the inquiry history dictates that he was an honest man who never recovered for not going to Custer's aid. He just may have given a more truthful testimony.

Reb
Click to expand...
Now didn't Weir spend his time at the Little Big Horn in a hole in the ground drinking with Reno?
 
Uk Reb.
You know as much about LBH as anyone I have ever knew.I really enjoy your analysis of the battle.
Mark
 
I have found some different paintings of the Bighorn battle and thought them to be well done..Michael
 

Attachments

  • CustersLastStand_ok1.jpg
    CustersLastStand_ok1.jpg
    78.6 KB · Views: 9,555
  • CusterLastStandOK2.jpg
    CusterLastStandOK2.jpg
    43.9 KB · Views: 1,653
Last edited:
Agree guys that our UKReb has done another outstanding job in covering the Little Big Horn and Michael found another rare photo of Custers Last Stand :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:The Lt.

006-8.jpg
 
Goes to show you, the cast of any military disaster is interchangeable, in any countries' history......Michael
 
Ed

Like we said either a Custerphile or a Custerphobe-appears to be nothing in between :D

Reb
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 0, guests: 3)
Community platform by XenForo® © 2010-2024 XenForo Ltd.
Back
Top