The Punic Wars Roman Warship July 2019 Special Pre-Order Announcement (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter jjDesigns
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Alexander the Great
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I think if you look at my diorama you will see that the Playmobile Roman Galley was modified and repainted to resemble a Roman River Patrol boat. The emblem on the sail was replaced and the shields were removed. The large scale of the Playmobile galley allowed for a Scorpion and 1/30 scale crew on deck.
The JJD Roman Galley has other problems. No rudder, the shields should be positioned vertical not horizontal and the structures over the oars are missing. The Playmobile galley comes with a mast, sail, and rudder. Plus it floats! The Playmobile galley is structurally more accurate as well.
Obviously Playmobile did more product research on their "toy" galley than JJD did on their model IMO.
The JJD Roman Galley has other problems. No rudder, the shields should be positioned vertical not horizontal and the structures over the oars are missing. The Playmobile galley comes with a mast, sail, and rudder. Plus it floats! The Playmobile galley is structurally more accurate as well.
Obviously Playmobile did more product research on their "toy" galley than JJD did on their model IMO.
Warrior
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zblang
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I don’t usually post on these comments, but ..... come on! You’re gonna lose the argument that Playmobil is at all comparable. That being said, buy what you like and I even commend the creativity, but an accuracy and Playmobil argument??? That you won’t win
mikemiller1955
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I don't know if you read this disclaimer on John's boat...
"Please note that these ships are designed to represent the naval battles of the Punic wars, to create a practical display with figures, and are not accurate scale models of the ships of the period."
he also said...
"The main aim in a naval battle was to ram and hole an enemy vessel or break its bank of oars. Sails were not used in battle conditions, but oar-power could give a ship a speed of 7-8 knots."
John's does not have a sail or mast...
which I can do without...
Ken's reference does not show a sail or mast on it...
as many other images I have found without a sail or mast...
you use yours as a small river boat...
his was not designed as a small river boat...
his was designed for naval battles...
maybe yours is more suited for that with only 10 rowers...
can't imagine it was very fast or could ram a ship with much impact...
his was designed for a naval battle...
John's has 54 oars on it...
John's appears to have 2 rudders on it...
exactly as the reference Ken shows...
and if floating is a bonus for you...
then good for you...
it's not for me...
I'm not floating any of my collection in water...
and I doubt any other collectors are using theirs to float...
I'll leave it with this comment...
"to each his own"...
the Playmobile is not for me...
I would love to see a picture of your modified boat if you would be so kind as to post it here...
"Please note that these ships are designed to represent the naval battles of the Punic wars, to create a practical display with figures, and are not accurate scale models of the ships of the period."
he also said...
"The main aim in a naval battle was to ram and hole an enemy vessel or break its bank of oars. Sails were not used in battle conditions, but oar-power could give a ship a speed of 7-8 knots."
John's does not have a sail or mast...
which I can do without...
Ken's reference does not show a sail or mast on it...
as many other images I have found without a sail or mast...
you use yours as a small river boat...
his was not designed as a small river boat...
his was designed for naval battles...
maybe yours is more suited for that with only 10 rowers...
can't imagine it was very fast or could ram a ship with much impact...
his was designed for a naval battle...
John's has 54 oars on it...
John's appears to have 2 rudders on it...
exactly as the reference Ken shows...
and if floating is a bonus for you...
then good for you...
it's not for me...
I'm not floating any of my collection in water...
and I doubt any other collectors are using theirs to float...
I'll leave it with this comment...
"to each his own"...
the Playmobile is not for me...
I would love to see a picture of your modified boat if you would be so kind as to post it here...
Sahara
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mikemiller1955
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sapper
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It's all getting quite silly now with the Roman ship saga. I think that if you don't like the John Jenkins Designs ship don't buy it and keep your opinions to yourself. I don't want to hear them and i'm sure most forum members don't either. I think Katana did quite a good job in converting the one he bought but I will be purchasing the better one from JJD. This historically correct theme is becoming tiresome. I always remember Andy from KC saying buy only what you like. Regards Greg.
jazzeum
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A forum is a place where collectors, among other things, can exchange ideas and opinions, including whether a mass produced toy (Playmobil) is as good a model. If you make an assertion, as Katana did, you have to be willing to have that assertion examined and debated. Now, if you don't like to read about that, then I recommend that you don't as there is nothing here that says you have to do so.
wayne556517
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Was a great set tho.
Vicknor
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jazzeum
Four Star General
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That’s not what you said on the Britain’s thread
Different topic. Apples and Oranges.
Currahee Chris
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For what it's worth, I just read a section in Adrian Goldsworthy's "The Roman Army" on Friday which focused on ships of this very time period. Here was what he had to say:
"There is still much that wew do not understand about the oared warships of the Classical World. Remains of such vessels, as opposed to merchant ships, which were often primarily powered by sails are exceptionally rare, only two examples found off the coast of Massala in Sicility being known for the entire period covered by this book. Classes of warships were named after the number in the basic team of rowers managing a set of oars on one side of the vessels....."
He goes on to show some examples of historical coins. I wasn't able to find the one in the book from 49BC but I did fin this one from 132AD:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...ip&selectedindex=19&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=1,2,6
The one he showed in his book from 49BC had BOTH the sail and the oars going on though it is generally accepted based on research and historical recreations- that only one method of propulsion would have been used at a time as both would be somewhat counterproductive (nor have I seen any images of ANY ships throughout history where both oar and sail have been used for sailing- seems contrary to general seamanship). I am happy to be proved wrong there as I am not a sailor.
Additionally, there is a relief that was discovered in Pompeii which shows a ship from the period of the Punic wars which closely resembles the JJD model- ie sans sail.
My thought when I saw this craft- beautiful piece of work though it does look a little "toyish" rather than a ship that has some campaigns under it's belt. Naval warfare during the Punic wars was essentially land warfare 2.0. In other words, ships just jostled and positioned to ram to do boarding actions by sending their marines in to mix it up with the crew of the other ship. These ships really weren't designed to take to the ocean on long voyages. They were designed to be highly mobile battle platforms intent on delivering their marines to said destination- a bit like the Higgins boats were in WW2. These ships were copied from captured Carthaginian ships of the period as Rome really didn't have any naval knowledge to speak of at that time.
Goldsworthy also includes a portrait of a naval boarding action in that section of his book. The shields are positioned horizontally exactly how JJD has theirs positioned. I cannot imagine Dr. Goldsworthy, who is one of the leading experts on the Ancient world, would allow inaccurate artwork in his books. Ultimately, on this point, I think we have to accept some possibility that the shields could have been positioned vertically as well since there exists so little of actual ships from that time period.
I think this is a very accurate portrayal of the ship that existed during the Punic wars campaigns. If I were a collector of that era, there wouldn't be a force on earth to stop me from adding this set to my collection.
In regards to the Conte RWG. It is folly to think that ship s anything close to historically accurate. I have one, I love it, but I accept the licenses that Conte took in producing it.
Lastly, I am a HUGE fan of Playmobil and own several of their castles, Egyptian sets and Roman sets. I find them to be historically appealing though I can vouch based on my own practical experiences that soldiers on campaign do not go everywhere with the giant smiles across their faces! {sm4}{sm4}
To all of you ordering one of these ships - enjoy it my friends!!!
Regards
CC
"There is still much that wew do not understand about the oared warships of the Classical World. Remains of such vessels, as opposed to merchant ships, which were often primarily powered by sails are exceptionally rare, only two examples found off the coast of Massala in Sicility being known for the entire period covered by this book. Classes of warships were named after the number in the basic team of rowers managing a set of oars on one side of the vessels....."
He goes on to show some examples of historical coins. I wasn't able to find the one in the book from 49BC but I did fin this one from 132AD:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...ip&selectedindex=19&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=1,2,6
The one he showed in his book from 49BC had BOTH the sail and the oars going on though it is generally accepted based on research and historical recreations- that only one method of propulsion would have been used at a time as both would be somewhat counterproductive (nor have I seen any images of ANY ships throughout history where both oar and sail have been used for sailing- seems contrary to general seamanship). I am happy to be proved wrong there as I am not a sailor.
Additionally, there is a relief that was discovered in Pompeii which shows a ship from the period of the Punic wars which closely resembles the JJD model- ie sans sail.
My thought when I saw this craft- beautiful piece of work though it does look a little "toyish" rather than a ship that has some campaigns under it's belt. Naval warfare during the Punic wars was essentially land warfare 2.0. In other words, ships just jostled and positioned to ram to do boarding actions by sending their marines in to mix it up with the crew of the other ship. These ships really weren't designed to take to the ocean on long voyages. They were designed to be highly mobile battle platforms intent on delivering their marines to said destination- a bit like the Higgins boats were in WW2. These ships were copied from captured Carthaginian ships of the period as Rome really didn't have any naval knowledge to speak of at that time.
Goldsworthy also includes a portrait of a naval boarding action in that section of his book. The shields are positioned horizontally exactly how JJD has theirs positioned. I cannot imagine Dr. Goldsworthy, who is one of the leading experts on the Ancient world, would allow inaccurate artwork in his books. Ultimately, on this point, I think we have to accept some possibility that the shields could have been positioned vertically as well since there exists so little of actual ships from that time period.
I think this is a very accurate portrayal of the ship that existed during the Punic wars campaigns. If I were a collector of that era, there wouldn't be a force on earth to stop me from adding this set to my collection.
In regards to the Conte RWG. It is folly to think that ship s anything close to historically accurate. I have one, I love it, but I accept the licenses that Conte took in producing it.
Lastly, I am a HUGE fan of Playmobil and own several of their castles, Egyptian sets and Roman sets. I find them to be historically appealing though I can vouch based on my own practical experiences that soldiers on campaign do not go everywhere with the giant smiles across their faces! {sm4}{sm4}
To all of you ordering one of these ships - enjoy it my friends!!!
Regards
CC
I use Exin blocks in my Roman fortifications and they look quite realistic. The Roman watchtower on the Danube river frontier, being resupplied by the Playmobile Roman galley is an example. I even built a 1/30 scale Roman Triumphal Arch with them through which Claudius on his Elephant could pass through!