Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter” (Our Mothers, Our Fathers) (1 Viewer)

[oberstoskar]

I just watched the whole series, truly awesome. The "band of brothers" in German

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21574531-new-television-drama-about-wartime-germany-stirs-up-controversy-war-generation

 

[wayne556517]

Sounds great wonder if and when it will be available here (Australia)or down loadable off the net can't find it.

 

[RPZ]

I would really like to see this, it sounds very promising. But after reading that article I have to say that the ongoing never ending hammering of the average German soldier and citizen for the real crimes of a few has long past absurdity. The Russian and Chinese Communists systematically and individually murdered far, far more, have never been held accountable, and are even held in esteem in some of our own media and institutions today. The suggestion that Germans should hold some kind of "collective guilt" is a disgusting perversion of history and a gross injustice.

 

[uksubs]

I would really like to see this, it sounds very promising. But after reading that article I have to say that the ongoing never ending hammering of the average German soldier and citizen for the real crimes of a few has long past absurdity. The Russian and Chinese Communists systematically and individually murdered far, far more, have never been held accountable, and are even held in esteem in some of our own media and institutions today. The suggestion that Germans should hold some kind of "collective guilt" is a disgusting perversion of history and a gross injustice.

How many Jews did the Germany kill during the war out of interest ?

 

[RPZ]

How many Jews did the Germany kill during the war out of interest ?

None, if you refer to "Germany" as a nation.

As far as how many were killed deliberately by individual Germans I do not know the actual total. I do know that at least five bearing my family name died in Austria; whether they were actually murdered by individual Germans, at the order of a German individual, or whether they perished from disease, malnutrition or other I do not know. Only that they were among those.

For the actual total dead a simple Google search will no doubt get your answer for you.

 

[Mitch]

It is a stunning piece of work.

RPZ...

Interesting submission. I think that its right that Germany today should not have to shoulder the responsibility for its historical misdemeanours just as other countries should not rather like England being ashamed of the Empire or, a host of other countries for their history. There has to be a time to move on. It should not forget its past but, should not, and Germany today, is not looking at it with the guilt by association that has shadowed it since the end of WWII

However, in the respect the generation that was active from 1922-45 bears the same responsibility whether one wished to say its collective guilt but, you have to address what was going on inside Germany at that time and some years before to understand what happened to appreciate what ended in the extermination of many people.

The Nazi party and their umbrella organisations the Gestapo and similar could not have done what they did the reconstruction of the country, war and the extermination of people without the assistance of the ordinary German.

That may not sit well with some but, its rather true. Its not saying every German was bad as that's a perversion in its own right that has been prospered but, the way that Germany was educated during that period its easy to see how the country ended where it did. the ''Jews'' were bad and at the root of all problems among a number of other absurd assumptions from military and economic issues. They seem bizarre today but, at that time in that nation were truisms.

For many years after the war collectively Germany hid behind the shield of ''it was the Nazi's'' but, as happens more detailed investigation and research has shown the assistance the German civilian organisations and the Heer gave to the policies that its Government actioned.

Best not forget that obedience was a core feature in the German psyche and, was central to the military regime in power.

I think we have to be careful when we say the Russians etc killed more than Germany ever did it may or may not be true but, these regimes also lasted longer than the Third Reich so, its not a comparison that should be used IMO. Right that it should be addressed that these regimes were as brutal but, they were allies at the time well, one was and, then quickly became the enemy. Its probably, Ironically, one of the reasons why the Russians have had so little sympathy from many countries regarding the millions they lost in WWII
Mitch

I would really like to see this, it sounds very promising. But after reading that article I have to say that the ongoing never ending hammering of the average German soldier and citizen for the real crimes of a few has long past absurdity. The Russian and Chinese Communists systematically and individually murdered far, far more, have never been held accountable, and are even held in esteem in some of our own media and institutions today. The suggestion that Germans should hold some kind of "collective guilt" is a disgusting perversion of history and a gross injustice.

 

[uksubs]

None, if you refer to "Germany" as a nation.

As far as how many were killed deliberately by individual Germans I do not know the actual total. I do know that at least five bearing my family name died in Austria; whether they were actually murdered by individual Germans, at the order of a German individual, or whether they perished from disease, malnutrition or other I do not know. Only that they were among those.

For the actual total dead a simple Google search will no doubt get your answer for you.

I just don't buy the thought that the German nation did not know about the mass killing of the Jews in Ww2 that my point

 

[jazzeum]

I would really like to see this, it sounds very promising. But after reading that article I have to say that the ongoing never ending hammering of the average German soldier and citizen for the real crimes of a few has long past absurdity. The Russian and Chinese Communists systematically and individually murdered far, far more, have never been held accountable, and are even held in esteem in some of our own media and institutions today. The suggestion that Germans should hold some kind of "collective guilt" is a disgusting perversion of history and a gross injustice.

This has to be revisionism at its finest. That the Communists did or may have done far worse does not lessen the crimes spawned by Germany which led to untold unnecessary deaths. If you back out Japanese deaths, that's 50 million in military and civilian deaths.

 

[ostrein]

I just don't buy the thought that the German nation did not know about the mass killing of the Jews in Ww2 that my point

The ordinary people didn’t know about the mass killing. They certainly noticed when the Gestapo arrested their neighbors and friends. They realized that they didn’t come back and that these houses or apartments were given to “German” families and Party members.
But they didn’t ask loud what had happened to their Jewish neighbor. The ordinary german accepted that the Jews disappeared and went on with their lives. If you dared to ask loudly what the Gestapo did with your Jewish friend, you certainly put your and your family at risk to also being deported/arrested.

So for the question if they knew what was going on: They learned just not to think about it.

Thats the guilt my grandmom was telling me about. Looking in the other direction and trying not to be noticed by the Gestapo.

Oliver

 

[ostrein]

BTW, I think " Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter" is really a "must see". Well done!


Oliver

 

[jager7080]

I would really like to see this, it sounds very promising. But after reading that article I have to say that the ongoing never ending hammering of the average German soldier and citizen for the real crimes of a few has long past absurdity. The Russian and Chinese Communists systematically and individually murdered far, far more, have never been held accountable, and are even held in esteem in some of our own media and institutions today. The suggestion that Germans should hold some kind of "collective guilt" is a disgusting perversion of history and a gross injustice.

Rolf ,

It would also like to see this series...I have spoken with my grandmother about her experiences during WW2 , i have since i was young been very interested in knowing what the war was all about...My Opa served in the Kreigsmarine , my Oma was part of a farming program that Hitler had set-up , she tended to chickens & feed animals & such...Later there was an AA battery attached to her farm & following a battle she was subsquently captured by British Paratroopers...
Two of my Opa's brothers were killed both were in the Wehrmacht , one was killed in France the other in the Ukraine...early in the war...
The last time i was in Germany when the World Cup was there...I spent alot of time with people my age , who would have had their Grandparents lived through the war...Many have said the same as this article in the thread , nobody really wanted to talk about it...They also said that they felt that during the World Cup it was the first time that as a nation they were allowed to be finally proud...
Absolutley agree...

Joe

 

[RPZ]

Mitch,

In the 1930s the Germans had just two political choices; the Communist party and the National Socialist party. What the Bolsheviks had done - ongoing at the time - was well known.

The few average Germans who really had any firsthand knowledge of atrocities would not be in a position to do anything. Once the war was underway it just would not be something anyone in any average town or city would have exposure to.

Jazzeum,

Revisionism? Why is citing an unjust guilt assignment and historical perspective "revisionism"?

The fact is, Germans as a whole at the time, are being assigned with this guilt, while we as a nation have actively supported, aided financially, materially and politically two political parties in two major portions of the globe that did in fact killed, torture, persecute far more. In the case of China this is ongoing. Now.

Was the average American completely ignorant of this in the 1920s? The 1930s?

Is the average Chinese citizen or soldier to be held guilty of past and present of the mas murder there?

Your use of the term "revisionism" is intellectually dishonest.

 

[RPZ]

Joe,

My grandfather was a Jew who served in the german army as a sniper. He fought in the Spanish civil war. Right before WW2 the whole family moved to London.

 

[Jack]

Joe,

My grandfather was a Jew who served in the german army as a sniper. He fought in the Spanish civil war. Right before WW2 the whole family moved to London.

If you do not mind a personal question, what was his experience in England like once war broke out? We interned quite a number of people in Australia during the war who were, almost universally, innocent of any crime and were, in many cases, anti fascist.

 

[RPZ]

Jack,

Relatively noneventful and fortunately no one was killed or injured by any of the aerial bombing of London. They remained there after the war, my uncle still lives there.

 

[Jack]

Jack,

Relatively noneventful and fortunately no one was killed or injured by any of the aerial bombing of London. They remained there after the war, my uncle still lives there.

Thanks for sharing such a fascinating story.

 

[larso]

"If you do not mind a personal question, what was his experience in England like once war broke out? We interned quite a number of people in Australia during the war who were, almost universally, innocent of any crime and were, in many cases, anti fascist."

There was an old fellow I got to know quite well at church. He and his siblings were all Australian born but they learned German at home from their parents (a favourite part of which was singing the Hitler Youth songs that his father had shipped over from the Fatherland!) During the war he served in the Australian army and even fought on the Kokoda Track. While he was doing this, his sister was arrested and interned for the 'crime' of teaching in a German language school. Even 60 years later he was still angry about that.

 

[Mitch]

RPZ...

This is a subject I have studied and researched at first hand in depth. There are two positions the one which you seem to be saying that ''ordinary'' germans did not know of the atrocities on going and the other that some did maybe, many but could do nothing about it.

You inter mix a portion of both into your answer this was not about the other regimes but about the German regime. This is about the Nazi party and Germany as a whole. Now, pre war when Germany began using the concentration camps to hold those who were seen as a threat to the Party and order these new camps were well publicised across Germany. This was to subdue and probably frighten both agitators and keep the majority of the population in order or, to show strength to its supporters that action was taken against these subversives. Most ''ordinary'' germans knew of the treatment subversives were given and accepted it. At that time it was more brutal and more akin to hard labour than pure extermination.

As the war came and progressed these camps taking on their new role as extermination camps were all over Germany and the occupied territory but, lets take the camps in Germany. They were all not isolated and away from Towns and cities and, local people were well aware of what went on in them. In many cases locals served the camps with food and other materials and were part of their business so, its not an easy thing to say that ''ordinary'' germans were not aware as the stories etc were out and locals were actually assisting with materials the running of camps. You just cannot hide these things completely and, the smell alone was detectable in some cases 18 KM or more from the camps.

I fully accept that there was nothing the home germans could have done in relation to this but, that is not the question its who knew what? Its easy and probably human when confronted with such scenes to say I knew nothing and, its a defence heavily used and one that the world found and probably still does difficult to accept. Its difficult to say I knew, but did nothing, even when you could do nothing in such a regime.

Who knew and what could be done are different questions. some Germans would have known some probably knew a little some maybe knew nothing but, whether that makes them all guilty by association is a more complex issue
Mitch

Its easy to say what should have, could have, or even what was known today

Mitch,

In the 1930s the Germans had just two political choices; the Communist party and the National Socialist party. What the Bolsheviks had done - ongoing at the time - was well known.

The few average Germans who really had any firsthand knowledge of atrocities would not be in a position to do anything. Once the war was underway it just would not be something anyone in any average town or city would have exposure to.

Jazzeum,

Revisionism? Why is citing an unjust guilt assignment and historical perspective "revisionism"?

The fact is, Germans as a whole at the time, are being assigned with this guilt, while we as a nation have actively supported, aided financially, materially and politically two political parties in two major portions of the globe that did in fact killed, torture, persecute far more. In the case of China this is ongoing. Now.

Was the average American completely ignorant of this in the 1920s? The 1930s?

Is the average Chinese citizen or soldier to be held guilty of past and present of the mas murder there?

Your use of the term "revisionism" is intellectually dishonest.

 

[RPZ]

Mitch,

I have it firsthand via my family. I have also studied this in written and other avenues.

You should really re-read my first post. This is about the collective guilt assignment, and by virtue of the word collective there is an overlap into whether "everyone knew", and further then, what could those who "knew" even do about it.

Other regimes and mass murder are relevent, because if you are going to place a guilt trip on a whole nation you had better make sure there is equal guilt place upon the others, and justice.

The simple fact is that this is not the case. There is the continued support economically and politically of a political part that has murdered more people than anyone in the National Socialist party in Germany could ever of dreamed of.
'
So are we to sustain this tirade of unjust villification against Germans on the one hand, and not do likewise where it is due elsewhere?

 

[oberstoskar]

I am a Hong Kong Chinese, and I have listened to my grandmother's stories during Japanese occupation of Hong Kong.
Till now, the Japanese refused to admit to war crimes, and their history textbooks do not reveal all the facts to the new generation... (I am not just bashing the Japanese, China's communist party has an ugly history too)

I admire the Germans for confronting their nation's history, and did not hide any of the facts. There is nobody to blame if a nation is willing to repent and not to commit against human rights.