Very Narrow East Front Poll (3 Viewers)

[Blowtorch]

I am curious enough to read it because the current view is that Hitler's bad decisions, the incompetence of his closest associates, and the bullying of his generals is what lost the war. Is there another side to this?

Terry

The more German works which are getting translated into English has me believing that the only chance he had to win in Russia was if Stalin killed himself or was overthrown in 41-42. Absolutely no way the Wehrmacht could have pulled it off militarily.

Oil killed the German war machine. Rommel was scraping by, the East front was scraping by...and by 1942, Germany simply ran out. It's a major reason why Op. Blue fizzled in Summer '42. In fact, it's a major reason why Stalingrad got encircled...the reserve 22PD was sitting idle because it didn't have any fuel. When they had to start those cold engines that fateful morning of 11/19/42...most just wouldn't start.

And they would never have caught the Caucausus oilfields intact. If Stalin didn't burn them, Churchill would have bombed them.

Hitler's only reasonable chances for success appear to be a) annihilate Dunkirk & cut a deal, b) take Gibraltar & cut a deal, c) cut a deal with Stalin in early Barbarossa. Otherwise he was toast. It was just a matter of time.

One more...d) fortify Poland in 41, don't invade USSR, & build U-boats like your life depended on it

 

[Spitfrnd]

And that's what they did, repositioned the Armored Wedge formation, putting the Pz.IVs in front as cannon foder. After they did, it worked fine exposing the Russian positions which were quickly neutralized by the heavies.

But when the Russian armor attacked they were all a point blank range so the heavies had no advantage, no?

 

[FirstLegion]

Hitler's only reasonable chances for success appear to be a) annihilate Dunkirk & cut a deal, b) take Gibraltar & cut a deal, c) cut a deal with Stalin in early Barbarossa. Otherwise he was toast. It was just a matter of time.

One more...d) fortify Poland in 41, don't invade USSR, & build U-boats like your life depended on it

How about don't invade Russia in '41 and instead defend the Polish borders while securing the middle east and it's oil via North Africa with all of that Barbarossa power? This surely would have knocked the UK out of the war, no? No UK at war = No US at war.

Then deal with Russia either through negotiation from a position of strength or invasion in '42 from both Poland and via the middle east to seize the Caucuses oil fields. Russia's military would still have been garbage in '42 without the lessons of '41 to draw upon and Germany's would have been that much more powerful and without a second front to worry about.

Another item that would have helped them would have been to put themselves on a total war footing (manufacturing and economically speaking)as early as 1939.

Just some random thoughts...

 

[nasirkasmani]

The more German works which are getting translated into English has me believing that the only chance he had to win in Russia was if Stalin killed himself or was overthrown in 41-42. Absolutely no way the Wehrmacht could have pulled it off militarily.

Oil killed the German war machine. Rommel was scraping by, the East front was scraping by...and by 1942, Germany simply ran out. It's a major reason why Op. Blue fizzled in Summer '42. In fact, it's a major reason why Stalingrad got encircled...the reserve 22PD was sitting idle because it didn't have any fuel. When they had to start those cold engines that fateful morning of 11/19/42...most just wouldn't start.

And they would never have caught the Caucausus oilfields intact. If Stalin didn't burn them, Churchill would have bombed them.

Hitler's only reasonable chances for success appear to be a) annihilate Dunkirk & cut a deal, b) take Gibraltar & cut a deal, c) cut a deal with Stalin in early Barbarossa. Otherwise he was toast. It was just a matter of time.

One more...d) fortify Poland in 41, don't invade USSR, & build U-boats like your life depended on it

good points all.

adding to all this is the sabotage damage the partisans wrought behind the occupied lines which hampered whermacht's supply.

and the whermacht's reprisals at such acts became breeding ground for more disgruntled civilians to turn partisans.

 

[nasirkasmani]

How about don't invade Russia in '41 and instead defend the Polish borders while securing the middle east and it's oil via North Africa with all of that Barbarossa power? This surely would have knocked the UK out of the war, no? No UK at war = No US at war.

Then deal with Russia either through negotiation from a position of strength or invasion in '42 from both Poland and via the middle east to seize the Caucuses oil fields. Russia's military would still have been garbage in '42 without the lessons of '41 to draw upon and Germany's would have been that much more powerful and without a second front to worry about.

Another item that would have helped them would have been to put themselves on a total war footing (manufacturing and economically speaking)as early as 1939.

Just some random thoughts...

i think what hampered this what Hitler's own grand vision of a grand pax briton-germania alliance.

he tried so very hard to court Britain, but was ultimately scuppered by Churchill.

even deep in the war, he still had the grand notion.

 

[Louis Badolato]

One more...d) fortify Poland in 41, don't invade USSR, & build U-boats like your life depended on it

That is the only way for them to have won the war. Had they built hundreds of U-Boats and starved Britain into submission, they then could have grabbed the British controlled middle east oil fields, and turned on the Soviets at their leisure. Thankfully, regardless of what Hitler did or didn't do, he didn't do this, sealing his miserable fate.

 

[FirstLegion]

i think what hampered this what Hitler's own grand vision of a grand pax briton-germania alliance.

he tried so very hard to court Britain, but was ultimately scuppered by Churchill.

even deep in the war, he still had the grand notion.

Well, yes. I was just merely pointing out another method by which Germany could have (and probably should have given the situation at the end of 1940)prevailed in the war via military means or negotiation.

 

[FirstLegion]

That is the only way for them to have won the war. Had they built hundreds of U-Boats and starved Britain into submission, they then could have grabbed the British controlled middle east oil fields, and turned on the Soviets at their leisure. Thankfully, regardless of what Hitler did or didn't do, he didn't do this, sealing his miserable fate.

I don't even think they needed the U-Boats to seize the middle eastern oil fields. They just needed to put more boots on the ground in Africa and the Luftwaffe focused on British shipping in the Mediterranean and Suez thus preventing the UK from reinforcing their overseas holdings. If anything, they should have built more planes. Without anything to ship and with air supremacy in the region, English shipping is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[nasirkasmani]

Well, yes. I was just merely pointing out another method by which Germany could have (and probably should have given the situation at the end of 1940)prevailed in the war via military means or negotiation.

you are right.

invading russia via eastern europe and up the suez canal would split the russian's front.

or if Hitler had managed to coax the Turks or Japanese to join in barbarossa via a new front and coax spain to harass the gilbraltar shipping lines.

in that way, the reserve siberian troops facing the japanese would have to be split.

 

[IXEC]

The more German works which are getting translated into English has me believing that the only chance he had to win in Russia was if Stalin killed himself or was overthrown in 41-42. Absolutely no way the Wehrmacht could have pulled it off militarily.

Oil killed the German war machine. Rommel was scraping by, the East front was scraping by...and by 1942, Germany simply ran out. It's a major reason why Op. Blue fizzled in Summer '42. In fact, it's a major reason why Stalingrad got encircled...the reserve 22PD was sitting idle because it didn't have any fuel. When they had to start those cold engines that fateful morning of 11/19/42...most just wouldn't start.

And they would never have caught the Caucausus oilfields intact. If Stalin didn't burn them, Churchill would have bombed them.

Hitler's only reasonable chances for success appear to be a) annihilate Dunkirk & cut a deal, b) take Gibraltar & cut a deal, c) cut a deal with Stalin in early Barbarossa. Otherwise he was toast. It was just a matter of time.

One more...d) fortify Poland in 41, don't invade USSR, & build U-boats like your life depended on it

All very valid point Blowtorch.

Strange as it may seem, there really was once a chance for Hitler to pull off the defeat of Russia and that chance melted away forever during a short 10-14 day period in Aug.1941. What happened during this short time ? Hitler got sick and General's Halder & Brauchitsch deliberately sabotaged Hitler's original battle plan for their own self glorafication , to be the first to march into Moscow ,which wasn't close to Hitler's original plan and Gudarian was also involved. By the way, it was this incident that caused Hitler to have no less than three stinogrefers record his every word from then on through the final end.

Read the book. This incident was confermed in what Goring had to say of this chance to defeat Russia during his capture interegation interviews with the Allies.

There are so many revelations in this book as to make your precieved understanding of WWII, to be turned on its head


Cheers

 

[Blowtorch]

. By the way, it was this incident that caused Hitler to have no less than three stinogrefers record his every word from then on through the final end.

by coincidence the transcripts you mention happen to just be one of the books I was referring to

http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-His-Ge...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249442328&sr=1-3

It's an amazing story how these transcripts survived

 

[fmethorst]

They did inflict greater losses on the Soviets than they themselves sustained, so I agree it can't be viewed as an absolute defeat. The problem was they didn't inflict the 3 or 4 to 1 ratio of losses they needed to at that point in the war to regain the initiative on the eastern front. A lot of German divisions got shredded and while they may have been brought back up to strength not long after the operation concluded, that was thanks to increasing German productive capacity and recruiting back home, and those men and machines could have otherwise been used to create new divisions instead.

Some say Kursk was called off too early, when victory was within reach, leaving a lot of semi-intact armor behind on the field for the Soviets to capture etc. Do you think the Germans could still have achieved something of a victory if they had persevered with the operation?

Well, it's purely speculative but it's interesting to consider "What if the operation had been allowed to proceed?". In the south the II.SS-Panzerkorps had pretty much penetrated the layered defense and still had combat power left. That said the corps flanks were the problem because the units to either side had not managed to keep pace. In the north no significant penetration was achieved during the period of the operation. As a result the grand encirclement was unlikely. In a strictly tit for tat exchange of war material, even one markedly in favor of the Germans, the Soviets would prevail since they could make good the losses while the Germans could not.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Really great discussion guys, fascinating alternate history stuff. It's true about the central role oil played in WW2. America's abundance of the stuff allowed it to become the new industrial heartland, while Japan's shortage of the stuff led in part to Peal Harbor. Most wars are started over land and natural resources, and it's control over natural resources that often decides their outcome. Maybe if Hitler's ideology focused more on oil than genetics he could have pulled off a victory.

 

[jazzeum]

Something else to consider were the "Axis," which were in name only. There was never any consideration of concerted action between the Germans and the Japanese. Fore example, had the Japanese attacked the Soviets in the east, that would have put some added pressure on Stalin.

 

[nasirkasmani]

Something else to consider were the "Axis," which were in name only. There was never any consideration of concerted action between the Germans and the Japanese. Fore example, had the Japanese attacked the Soviets in the east, that would have put some added pressure on Stalin.

i agree. good point.
if they did, i don't think even with its vast resources (but at that time, poorly trained army), russia can resist 2 concentrated thrusts in the east and west.

something like what the germans and russia did to poland.

 

[IXEC]

But when the Russian armor attacked they were all a point blank range so the heavies had no advantage, no?

Yes & no

Read how many real German casualties resulted in the battle of Kursk. I think you'll be surprised by how little there really were compared to the written hype of a battle of this intensity and this size. So why was there so much hype about this battle if it was such a meat grinder for the Germans ?

 

[IXEC]

i agree. good point.
if they did, i don't think even with its vast resources (but at that time, poorly trained army), russia can resist 2 concentrated thrusts in the east and west.

something like what the germans and russia did to poland.

That is exactly why Hitler declared war on the U.S. just days after Pearl Harbor. To prod Japan into attacking Russia.

Had Japan just declared war against Russia. There would have been no U.S./ Russian flaged ships supplying the Soviet Union without risk of being sunk by Japan.

Few people realise that American ships flying Russian flags sailed just miles from their declared enemy ( Japan ) unmolested supplying Russia with all the food that there entire population required.

 

[FirstLegion]

That is exactly why Hitler declared war on the U.S. just days after Pearl Harbor. To prod Japan into attacking Russia.

Though it is likely that the US would have eventually entered the war against Germany at some point anyway, surely this must go down as one of the all time worst foreign policy decisions in history. Dictatorships just have no respect for the power of a roused democracy...

 

[damian]

Maybe if Hitler and Himmler had not sent in murder gangs to shoot and gas Jews, Poles, Ukranians, Gypsies, Slavs and any other of the many groups he felt were ondersmench not worthy of life or racially worthless then he would have won the war. It seems many groups welcomed him for getting rid of the communists. They were rapidly disabused of this notion by the SS.

 

[Rob]

Though it is likely that the US would have eventually entered the war against Germany at some point anyway, surely this must go down as one of the all time worst foreign policy decisions in history. Dictatorships just have no respect for the power of a roused democracy...

Indeed.Hitler made the same mistake in thinking Britain would buckle under his Luftwaffe,in fact it merely united them in determination.One can only wonder at how WW2 may have played out without Hitlers intervention in operations throughout its course,had it in fact been left to the generals and officer class he dispised.

Rob