Very Narrow East Front Poll (2 Viewers)

[fmethorst]

"We have only to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down" - Adolf Hitler

I think it is fairly evident that the Germans really didn't expect the war against the Soviet Union to even take until the winter of 1941/42, let alone drag on for 4 more years. Germany simply did not have the industrial capacity to fight a protracted war. When the Soviet Union didn't collapse after the enormous losses of 1941 the writing was on the wall. With the United States augmenting their industrial capacity and then actively joining the conflict I don't see how Germany could have prevailed. I think the Panzer divisions are very telling of deteriorating situation. In the last 3 years of the war they were consistantly understrength in terms of both armored and non-armored vehicles. In recognition of this fact the organization of these units was changed numerous times towards a leaner make up. Even if the Germans had been able to produce more vehicles it is unlikely they would have been able to fuel them.

Fuel production in millions of metric tons (includes imports and production by synthetic fuel plants)

..........................1942..................1943....................1944
United States........183.9.................199.6......... ..........222.5
Germany..................7.7....................8. 9......................6.4

 

[Blowtorch]

Adolf had some other quotes too. Early '42 he said if he didn't capture the Caucausus, he would have to end the war. Late'42 he held out as long as he could on the Volga & in the Caucausus because he knew (said) he would never be able to take them again.

Right there is a declaration of defeat.

Look at offensive capability: 1941 entire front is assaulted. 1942 he has to strip AG North & Center just to augment AG South enough to have local superiority there. 1943, he can only attack 1 salient. Kursk doesn't even seem an issue.

Depending on how you define turning point it would be between Barbarossa & Blue. To me Barbarossa would be the turning point & Blue wrapped it up in a pretty bow.

 

[debrito]

Adolf had some other quotes too. Early '42 he said if he didn't capture the Caucausus, he would have to end the war. Late'42 he held out as long as he could on the Volga & in the Caucausus because he knew (said) he would never be able to take them again.

Right there is a declaration of defeat.

Look at offensive capability: 1941 entire front is assaulted. 1942 he has to strip AG North & Center just to augment AG South enough to have local superiority there. 1943, he can only attack 1 salient. Kursk doesn't even seem an issue.

Depending on how you define turning point it would be between Barbarossa & Blue. To me Barbarossa would be the turning point & Blue wrapped it up in a pretty bow.

The declaration of defeat calls Operation Barbarosa, when the Russians are on the defensive side it is almost impossible to defeat them.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Adolf had some other quotes too. Early '42 he said if he didn't capture the Caucausus, he would have to end the war. Late'42 he held out as long as he could on the Volga & in the Caucausus because he knew (said) he would never be able to take them again.

Right there is a declaration of defeat.

Look at offensive capability: 1941 entire front is assaulted. 1942 he has to strip AG North & Center just to augment AG South enough to have local superiority there. 1943, he can only attack 1 salient. Kursk doesn't even seem an issue.

Depending on how you define turning point it would be between Barbarossa & Blue. To me Barbarossa would be the turning point & Blue wrapped it up in a pretty bow.

What is Blue?

 

[Canadian Samurai]

I agree Germany's offensive capability (i.e. ability to achieve total victory) on the eastern front disappeared long before Kursk, yet I have also read many speculations that had it not attacked at Kursk, and Hitler had not pulled LAH back to Sicily, then Germany stood a good chance of waging a successful long term defensive campaign (supplemented by punishing counter-strokes like Kharkov) such that the the two sides might have eventually had to settle into an uneasy cease fire along the 1942/43 borders. An army can get by with much less fuel on the defensive, and Russia's capacity to endure losses, contrary to some hyperbole out there, was certainly not infinite.

 

[nasirkasmani]

What is Blue?

Case Blue (German: Fall Blau) was the German codename used by the German Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) for its 1942 strategic summer offensive in southern Russia that lasted between 28 June and 19 August 1942.

the rest of the bit -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Blue

 

[Blowtorch]

Ya, what Nasirkasami said.

The juice of the matter is that Adolf wanted the Caucausus oilfields in 1942, because he was running out of gas. He stripped AG North & Center to reinforce AG South for local superiority. Meanwhile Stalin thought Adolf was going for Moscow in 1942 so he put all his stregnth up there. Joe also sent Timoshenko to launch a 'spoiling attack' on AG South (which Joe thought was weak) & capture Kharkov in May'42, to foul up the coming Northern attack on Moscow.

Timoshenko unkowningly attacked right into the strength of the Wehrmacht (a fattened AG South) & got wiped out, giving Adolf his last big victory in the East.

Adolf then launched Blue shortly after & a) because Timoshenko had been wiped out & b) the Red Army's strength was around Moscow, basically took a giant lunge into thin air (not too much left in the south, & Stalin allowed anything left to retreat to the Don).

So AG South went driving to Rostov & the Don & encountered very little resistance leading to some wrong conclusions in Rastenburg. Cheifly, the USSR is on their last leg & are about to collapse. So let's go take Stalingrad in addition to the Caucausus.

So AG South splits in AG A & AG B. The former heads South to Grozny, starts encoutnering resistance, & runs out of fuel & stalls. AG B finds new opposition on the Don & wipes it out & heads to the Volga.

Of course the Soviets were never on their last leg, they merely had their stuff in a different place. I think we all know the rest of this story.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Timoshenko unkowningly attacked right into the strength of the Wehrmacht (a fattened AG South) & got wiped out, giving Adolf his last big victory in the East.

Right, that was second Kharkov. Would you not say third Kharkov in early 1943 (subject of this poll) was the last big victory?

 

[fmethorst]

I dug up some production figures I thought you guys might appreciate:

T34

M3/M4 and related vehicles

 

[Spitfrnd]

I dug up some production figures I thought you guys might appreciate:

Were any of those Shermans at Kursk?

 

[jazzeum]

Another good, albeit difficult read is:
The Years of Extermination: Nazi Germany and the Jews, 1939-1945
by Saul Friedlanger

I agree with your assertion that the Nazis viewed the Slavs as inferior but the Jews were more than that to them. They were a mortal threat more dangerous than any of Germany's national foes.

Some interesting wartime posters from various locales.

http://www.katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2/Images/images01.html

I know of Freidlander's books but haven't read them. Have you ever had the opportunity to read The Lost by Daniel Mendolsohn. It's a fascinating book about one man's search to find out what happened to his uncle, aunt and two cousins during WW II. They were exterminated by the Nazis but Mendolsohn wanted to know the what and hows of what took place. It's a great book.

 

[fmethorst]

Were any of those Shermans at Kursk?

I don't think so. I believe they didn't start shipping M4s to the Soviet Union until June 1943.

I do have pictures of M3s, Churchills and Jeeps at Kursk.

 

[fmethorst]

I know of Freidlander's books but haven't read them. Have you ever had the opportunity to read The Lost by Daniel Mendolsohn. It's a fascinating book about one man's search to find out what happened to his uncle, aunt and two cousins during WW II. They were exterminated by the Nazis but Mendolsohn wanted to know the what and hows of what took place. It's a great book.

No I haven't read that one. It sounds interesting though.

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

My vote is for Kursk as what a tank battle.Simmo.

 

[Spitfrnd]

I don't think so. I believe they didn't start shipping M4s to the Soviet Union until June 1943.

I do have pictures of M3s, Churchills and Jeeps at Kursk.

Thanks Frank. I understand the Russians dubbed the M3 the "Coffin for seven brothers".

 

[Blowtorch]

Right, that was second Kharkov. Would you not say third Kharkov in early 1943 (subject of this poll) was the last big victory?

Kharkov '43 was certainly a victory for Germany, but not of the scale of Kharkov '42. A few more Kharkov'42s, and Stalin might have started to sweat again. A few more Kharvov'43s would have just annoyed him.

 

[Spitfrnd]

What were the orders of battle at the Kharkovs?

 

[fmethorst]

Thanks Frank. I understand the Russians dubbed the M3 the "Coffin for seven brothers".

Yeah I've heard that nickname too. Must have been truly morale boosting for the men issued these tanks as well as all of the obsolete British hand me downs.

...and how did they manage to cram 7 guys into these anyway??

 

[fmethorst]

What were the orders of battle at the Kharkovs?

I have an OOB for Kharkov '42 but not Kharkov '43. Is there anything in particular you are looking for?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Yeah I've heard that nickname too. Must have been truly morale boosting for the men issued these tanks as well as all of the obsolete British hand me downs.

...and how did they manage to cram 7 guys into these anyway??

The M3 Grant used by the British had a crew of 6 but the M3 Lee used by the Americans had the extra MG cupola on top and actually had a crew of 7. Here is a photo of a full Lee crew.

Terry