West Coaster Show- King and Country (1 Viewer)
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forlornhoper
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The information i have on S33, has a feifel air system on the tank during Zitadelle but not on the tank late 1943,it is also my understanding that all Early Production Tigers built upto Aug 1943 had this air system installed,some sources say upto OCT 1943,therefore if the previous history of S33 or 812 or 833, is correct,there are photos of these one and the same vehicle with the feifel air system installed and 1 photo that i have seen with no feifel in late 1943 and S33 looking in a sorry state before its loss/scuttling.I have not seen an authentic photo of the rear of S33 prior to late 1943 or during Zitadelle but have seen photos of 812 and 833 and other DAS REICH tigers during Zitadelle with feifel air systems.If others have alternative info ,it would be useful and interesting to share ken
Phantom Warrior
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I have seen photos of S33 only without the feifel air system. If there are photos of 812 or 833 with the feifel system, that's fine but they are not the tanks being depicted by K&C. Because we do have an actual photo of S33, we know it did operate without the feifel system. Note that both Tamiya and Hobby Master models of S33 have the feifel system on the tank, but I have no idea what source they used or if it is correct.
Terry
Jagdpanther
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That U.S. truck in the background being called a "prop" really looks like the Forces of Valor Enthusiast version of the Deuce 2 1/2. That reminds me, we really need another U.S. truck for our troops, the one they made has been retired forever and is a fortune on Ebay.
It is the Forces of Valor truck. I agree a new truck would be nice.
Phantom Warrior
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The source I have for the Feifel Air System shows the following dates from a list of Tiger I modifications (it does not mean that every modification was installed retroactively on every tank)
August 1942 - Fist Tigers delivered
November 1942 - The Feifel air cleaner system is mounted.
March 1943 - Modifed large oval Feifel filters introduced
May 1943 - Engine is changed to Maybach HL230
October 1943 - Feifel air cleaner system is discontinued
Here is a link to over 100 photos of the Das Reich Tigers specifically when they were numbered Sxx including several of S33. None show the Feifel Air System.
http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?threadid=47&sid=bf19d9b49fc8be6d84107128741f4bd9
From fmethorst's research " In May 1943 "S" (schwere) replaced "8" as the first digit so 833 became S33. The unit appears to have retained this numbering scheme for the remainder of 1943"
So even though there is a history of the Feifel being mounted on Tigers from November 1942 until October 1943, the Das Reich Sxx tanks from May 1943 when the Sxx numbering was adopted to the end of 1943 (some of the photos are in winter at the end of 1943), do not appear to have the Feifel Air System. Operation Zitadelle did not begin until July 4, 1943 - after the tanks were renumbered Sxx. So photos showing 812 or 833 were likely taken earlier.
Terry
August 1942 - Fist Tigers delivered
November 1942 - The Feifel air cleaner system is mounted.
March 1943 - Modifed large oval Feifel filters introduced
May 1943 - Engine is changed to Maybach HL230
October 1943 - Feifel air cleaner system is discontinued
Here is a link to over 100 photos of the Das Reich Tigers specifically when they were numbered Sxx including several of S33. None show the Feifel Air System.
http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?threadid=47&sid=bf19d9b49fc8be6d84107128741f4bd9
From fmethorst's research " In May 1943 "S" (schwere) replaced "8" as the first digit so 833 became S33. The unit appears to have retained this numbering scheme for the remainder of 1943"
So even though there is a history of the Feifel being mounted on Tigers from November 1942 until October 1943, the Das Reich Sxx tanks from May 1943 when the Sxx numbering was adopted to the end of 1943 (some of the photos are in winter at the end of 1943), do not appear to have the Feifel Air System. Operation Zitadelle did not begin until July 4, 1943 - after the tanks were renumbered Sxx. So photos showing 812 or 833 were likely taken earlier.
Terry
forlornhoper
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812 and 833 was S33 before Zitadelle and they had the feifel system installed,it appears the system was activated in dusty conditions and disabled when not required.Tigers produced before Aug 1943 had fiefel air systems installed,therefore one can conclude that during Zitadelle in July 1943S33 like other Das Reich Tigers would have the system fitted, even tho they were notorious shot traps,to combat the dusty conditions of the Russian summer,cannot not see the sense of disabling the system in an environment it was specifically designed for,a case of ,open to ones choice,with or without,i would choose with due to the known environment of a Russian summer. ken
forlornhoper
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Thanks for the link Terry,but i see many Das Reich Tigers with Feifels fitted for the correct environment on the photos you provided ,granted no feifel can be seen on S33 from the angle of the photos provided but that is not conclusive that a Feifel was not fitted in July 1943. ken
Phantom Warrior
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You are right. S02, S21 and several of the Das Reich Tigers not identified by number have the original style Feifel system. But there are clear photos in Summerof the rear of S33 (including one of the rear deck in summer) and other tanks (S01) showing no Feifel air system. So having a model of S33 without it, even in summer when they should have been in use is still accurate. And we have no conclusive proof that every Das Reich Tiger or specifically S33 ever had a Feifel. At best, it is inconclusive.
Terry
Phantom Warrior
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Something else occured to me. Why were the Feifels discontinued?
Terry
Terry
Rob
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Because they prolonged maintenance and had to be removed everytime access to the engine bay was needed.
Rob
desk11desk12
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My favorites displayed in the KC room (not that anyone asked me):
Gees, you would think I was a big "Allied" force fan; you'd be right! LOL.
Carlos
- DDay -1 diorama
- British Airborne mortar team
- Crane (in DDay -1 dio), not sure how practical it is to commit to production but it's a great dio piece and I'm sure like some pieces, it won't be produced again. That in itself would make very desirable.
- Both Landing Crafts and crews
- Medic with stretcher
- M4 Snorkel Sherman Tank (I already have the Figarti & Honour Bound versions)
Gees, you would think I was a big "Allied" force fan; you'd be right! LOL.
Carlos
Phantom Warrior
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That is one likely reason, but not sufficient by itself if the engines really needed the pre-filter. There is a mention of Feifel in Panzer Tracts N0. 6 - which I do not have. It may shed some light on this if someone has it.
I believe the Feifel was developed for North Afrika but added in use on the dusty Russian steppes. It likely affected engine performance and fuel consumption and may have been a problem to maintain. It was improved once by replacing the 4 small cannisters and filters with 2 larger oval shaped cannisters and filters. The Tiger engine was also upgraded, so the Feifel may have become unnecessary?
I believe the Feifels were only sporadically used in Russia in dusty conditions and that they were not uniformly used but may have been up to the tank commander in some cases as to use it or not.The only real proof I can think of would be in the order to stop their use - such an order would probably give a reason or explanation on their disuse. I don't have a copy of that order either but maybe a forum member does.
Terry
Rob
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That is one likely reason, but not sufficient by itself if the engines really needed the pre-filter. There is a mention of Feifel in Panzer Tracts N0. 6 - which I do not have. It may shed some light on this if someone has it.
I believe the Feifel was developed for North Afrika but added in use on the dusty Russian steppes. It likely affected engine performance and fuel consumption and may have been a problem to maintain. It was improved once by replacing the 4 small cannisters and filters with 2 larger oval shaped cannisters and filters. The Tiger engine was also upgraded, so the Feifel may have become unnecessary?
The only real proof I can think of would be in the order to stop their use - such an order would probably give a reason or explanation on their disuse. I don't have a copy of that order either but maybe a forum member does.
Terry
Of course,what what do I know
Rob
Phantom Warrior
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forlornhoper
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fmethorst
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That is one likely reason, but not sufficient by itself if the engines really needed the pre-filter. There is a mention of Feifel in Panzer Tracts N0. 6 - which I do not have. It may shed some light on this if someone has it.
I believe the Feifel was developed for North Afrika but added in use on the dusty Russian steppes. It likely affected engine performance and fuel consumption and may have been a problem to maintain. It was improved once by replacing the 4 small cannisters and filters with 2 larger oval shaped cannisters and filters. The Tiger engine was also upgraded, so the Feifel may have become unnecessary?
The only real proof I can think of would be in the order to stop their use - such an order would probably give a reason or explanation on their disuse. I don't have a copy of that order either but maybe a forum member does.
Terry
While dusty conditions may have been the driver to their development they were a standard item on the Tiger Ausf.E for approximately one year. Here are the relative dates:
- Oct. '42 - Mounting plates appeared starting Fgst.Nr.250014
- Nov. '42 - Original style Feifel pre-ilters appear
- Mar. '43 - Simplified style Feifel pre-filters appear
- Oct. '43 - Feifel pre-filters, brackets, hoses and ductwork on engine deck discontinued.
- Dec. '43 - Mounting plates discontinued.
The Maybach HL 230 P45 engine replaced the Maybach HL 210 P45 engine in May '43 (Fgst.Nr. 250251). This means there was no direct correlation between the change in engine model and the Feifel pre-filters.
Except in dust free conditions the the round armored cap over the engine combustion air intake vent was to be kept closed as long as the pre-filters were in operation.
As to the mix of pictures with an without I don't have an explanation. Perhaps in some cases parts of the system were damaged so it was removed entirely. Perhaps, as has been stated, it was done to economize maintenance time.
Phantom Warrior
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All true, but we still do not know why there are more photos of tigers without the Feifel in this period than there are with, and we don't know why they were discontinued - so far we have only been able to speculate.
Terry
Phantom Warrior
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I found a reference on the development and construction details of the Tiger tank which has a small note on the Feifel air system, for which the brackets for the system were factory installed on all Tigers during an approximately 2 year period.
"The Tigers used in North Africa, and in Russia in summer, were fitted with the feifel air cleaner system. This was attached to the rear of the hull and linked to the engine over the engine cover plate. The tropical Tigers were known as the Tiger (Tp), but the feifel air system was soon discontinued to simplify production. The first production Tiger's were equipped for a totally submerged wading with Snorkel breathing, but this proved an expensive luxury and was discarded."
This reference says they were discontinued to simplify production, but if they were needed, I still don't see how they could just not use them. I suspect they weren't really needed in Russia, even with the dust, and may have been a good but not vital accessory?
Terry
"The Tigers used in North Africa, and in Russia in summer, were fitted with the feifel air cleaner system. This was attached to the rear of the hull and linked to the engine over the engine cover plate. The tropical Tigers were known as the Tiger (Tp), but the feifel air system was soon discontinued to simplify production. The first production Tiger's were equipped for a totally submerged wading with Snorkel breathing, but this proved an expensive luxury and was discarded."
This reference says they were discontinued to simplify production, but if they were needed, I still don't see how they could just not use them. I suspect they weren't really needed in Russia, even with the dust, and may have been a good but not vital accessory?
Terry
forlornhoper
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Terry,your reference may have a point,the Feifel was only fitted from NOV 1942 to OCT 1943 and the explanation may be simply the Feifel experiment /installation was deemed "Not Necessary" at both production and operational level.The Tiger was a new war machine and during its life there were over 60 spec changes and the Feifel was just one of many that were changed. ken
Phantom Warrior
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And also consider that the Feifel was not original equipment on the very first Tigers which were sent to Russia in wetter conditions. They were actually developed for North Afrika, and at least the brackets if not a complete system were factory installed on all Tigers for that period. The North Afrika campaign ended in May 1943 and the Feifel was discontinued a few months later. And from many photographs, it appears not to have been used at all by many Tigers in Russia in Summer 1943, several months before the order to stop using them was issued in October.
Terry
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