West Coaster Show- King and Country (1 Viewer)

Agreed,the Feifel seems to disappear on Tigers from summer 1943,certainly after Kursk but have seen a Tiger with a July 1943 Turret and Cupola with a complete Feifel still installed dated after Kursk,but that was probably just a new turret replacing a battle damaged older turret,so dont anticipate that Tiger to be too unusual in its day visa vie the Hybrids of 44/45.thanks for the taking the time to find the info ,ken
 
Great, finally get to see a Firefly, a Tiger (missed the last one that came out two years ago, been waiting that long..!), plus the MG Jeep and requested mortar team! Now for an MG Vickers machine gun set and a Normandy 88mm anti-tank set (yes I missed that one as well and I'm told will be some time coming...) Look forward to seeing these new sets soon!
 
1. Are the LCVP and LCM ramps fixed closed?
2. Are the figures on the LCVP (machinegunners) removable?
3. Aren't there supposed to be MG mounts on both side of the LCM pilot
house?
 
According to David Fletcher of the Bovington Tank museum (he of Osprey publishing and History channel fame)the Feifel air filter system ws most probably removed because 'it was more trouble than it was worth' which jibes with my thinking on this re the painstaking maintenance efforts needed on the TigerI,we may not get a 100% answer but I think this is probably the nearest we will get to it.

Rob
 
Rob said:
According to David Fletcher of the Bovington Tank museum (he of Osprey publishing and History channel fame)the Feifel air filter system ws most probably removed because 'it was more trouble than it was worth' which jibes with my thinking on this re the painstaking maintenance efforts needed on the TigerI,we may not get a 100% answer but I think this is probably the nearest we will get to it.

Rob
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Yes - and it certainly seems like many tigers had stopped using them by the summer of 1943, even before the order ending their use. It supports the K&C model od S33 not having a Feifel at Kursk.

Terry
 
Sorry gentlemen cannot agree ,there is more evidence that suggests most if not all Das Reich Tigers would still be using the Feifel System in July 1943 than not.All 14 DR tigers entering the fray at Kursk would be Early versions all with Feifels,there was no other version available to any tiger unit of the German Panzerwaffe/ SS at that time.Replacement Tigers received by DR before Kursk may have had various alterations to the originals of February 1943,but they would still be early versions with Feifels.The Feifel system was discontinued in OCT 1943 ,months after the battle,until the order was given Feifel systems would have been repaired/installed as per the manual without exception,allowing for spares of course.Photos showing DR tigers without Feifels must be dated after Kursk,even if the system was somehow damaged during the battle,many of the components that make up the system would still be visible in photos of the battle,photos showing no components at all ,clearly indicate being taken after the summer of 1943.Therefore to place K&C Tiger S33 as modelled,at Kursk would be incorrect,after the battle would be more accurate .We should remember that the attrition rates of DR Tigers were miniscule to its Tiger compliment therefore there was not numerous replacements before Kursk ,DR combat tiger returns show that from Feb1943 to July 1943 only 3 tigers were lost,captured,caught fire and knocked out and since Kursk occured before the new July 1943 turret was in theatre all Tigers in the Kursk Theatre would be early versions with Feifel as per attached photos.
tigeriearlydj_71.jpg

tigeriearlydj_51.jpg

tigeriearlydj_11.jpg
 
forlornhoper said:
Sorry gentlemen cannot agree ,there is more evidence that suggests most if not all Das Reich Tigers would still be using the Feifel System in July 1943 than not.All 14 DR tigers entering the fray at Kursk would be Early versions all with Feifels,there was no other version available to any tiger unit of the German Panzerwaffe/ SS at that time.Replacement Tigers received by DR before Kursk may have had various alterations to the originals of February 1943,but they would still be early versions with Feifels.The Feifel system was discontinued in OCT 1943 ,months after the battle,until the order was given Feifel systems would have been repaired/installed as per the manual without exception,allowing for spares of course.Photos showing DR tigers without Feifels must be dated after Kursk,even if the system was somehow damaged during the battle,many of the components that make up the system would still be visible in photos of the battle,photos showing no components at all ,clearly indicate being taken after the summer of 1943.Therefore to place K&C Tiger S33 as modelled,at Kursk would be incorrect,after the battle would be more accurate .We should remember that the attrition rates of DR Tigers were miniscule to its Tiger compliment therefore there was not numerous replacements before Kursk ,DR combat tiger returns show that from Feb1943 to July 1943 only 3 tigers were lost,captured,caught fire and knocked out and since Kursk occured before the new July 1943 turret was in theatre all Tigers in the Kursk Theatre would be early versions with Feifel as per attached photos.
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Actually the attrition of Tigers at Kursk was very high. On July 4th, 1943, Das Reich had 48 Pz. III's, 30 Pz. IV's (1/4 with short barrels), 12 Tigers, 8 Pz. III command tanks, 18 T-34's, 33 StuG's, and 10 Marders combat ready. On July 28th, 1943 had 33 Pz. III's, 17 Pz. IV's, but only 2 T-34's, and 2 Tigers combat ready. On the July 28th, before it departed for Italy, the Leibstandarte Division handed over 9 Tigers, 39 Pz. IV's, and 4 Pz. III's to Das Reich. So at the end of July, Das Reich had 11 Tigers but only 2 of their original Tigers including S33 - we have a photo of S33 with the chinese good luck symbol taken in Spring 1944. Several photos show Das Reich Tigers wading through tall summer grass In 1943 and having no Feifels while other photos at the same time show tigers with the original Feifels. But if the photo was August and not July, they would have been photos of the transferred Leibstandarte Tigers with the exception of the 2 surviving Das Reich Tigers. On Aug. 27 Das Reich had 4 Pz. III's, 31 Pz. IV's, 6 Tigers, and 6 command tanks combat fit, plus one Panther company

Confusing, isn't it. :).

Terry
 
It can be confusing when we are referencing different material the return i have seen states for 11th July 1943 1 loss and 13 on hand,but from feb 1943 to 11th july 1943 the losses were 4 ,not the 10 your info provides.the facts are known ,all tigers at Kursk were early versions with an installed Feifel system there was no other alternative available in July 1943 in theatre,evidence showing any alternative to that must be incorrect,or my info from long established sources is incorrect.
 
forlornhoper said:
It can be confusing when we are referencing different material the return i have seen states for 11th July 1943 1 loss and 13 on hand,but from feb 1943 to 11th july 1943 the losses were 4 ,not the 10 your info provides.the facts are known ,all tigers at Kursk were early versions with an installed Feifel system there was no other alternative available in July 1943 in theatre,evidence showing any alternative to that must be incorrect,or my info from long established sources is incorrect.
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The period covered in your source for the loss of 4 Tigers is from Feb 1943 to July 11, 1943. The source I have taken from a history of the Das Reich shows 10 Tigers lost for an overlapping but different period - July 4th to July 28th. The Germans considered the battle to be from July 4th to July 20th, but the fighting went on into August. So they could easily have lost 6 more tigers over the two weeks from July 11th to July 28th.

Terry
 
My Das Reich tiger company return gives the following loses from 11th july 1943 to 28th sept 1943 ,6 tigers ,3 knocked out by enemy,2 destroyed by crews and 1 from friendly fire ??.at least we are getting closer,loses at Kursk is not the issue,the question should be did S33 ever have a feifel system and in its combat life was it removed ? The answer is of course Yes.K&C have modelled it removed,that does not mean inaccuracy,i would personally not place it in a diorama depicting a scene from Zitadelle,it would be great tho if the numerals could be changed so we could create a wedge or keil,now that would be some dio. ken
 
forlornhoper said:
My Das Reich tiger company return gives the following loses from 11th july 1943 to 28th sept 1943 ,6 tigers ,3 knocked out by enemy,2 destroyed by crews and 1 from friendly fire ??.at least we are getting closer,loses at Kursk is not the issue,the question should be did S33 ever have a feifel system and in its combat life was it removed ? The answer is of course Yes.K&C have modelled it removed,that does not mean inaccuracy,i would personally not place it in a diorama depicting a scene from Zitadelle,it would be great tho if the numerals could be changed so we could create a wedge or keil,now that would be some dio. ken
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I did some more research. There is more confusion. It looks like there was more than one tank named TIKI I found photos of summer and fall 1943 showing one tank with the word TIKI painted on the side and another one taken later without. I wonder if the first Tiki was lost in July at Kursk and was replaced by one of the Leibstandarte tanks and given the number S33? The first TIKI seems to be grey with dark yellow camo pattern. The second TIKI seems to be dark yellow with a green camo pattern :confused::confused: If so, that is likely the 2nd Tiger is the K&C have modeled.

I can't see any way to go futher without finding detailed original records - It's just too confusing and contradictory. And model makers on the internet who are real rivet counters have models of with both the TIKI and without the TIKI name and with and without a Feifel system and in the two different camo schemes.

I'm letting this rest now - I don't think we will get a definitive answer.

As for making a wedge, the tank number would have to change and the Chinese good luck symbol would have to be painted out.

Terry
 
Thanks for taking the pictures and supplying us with the information Carlos- great job- you should look for a career switch to CNN.

Will probably grab the Tiger and plop it in my Normandy diorama somewhere- irrespective of unit identifiers. Otherwise, not much there really relevant to the ranges I collect- will grab all the OMG figures- love the mortar team.. I got quite a chuckle looking at the GI's suspended in the jeep by the crane. :D Must be some kind of new punishment the CO metted out.

Great dios though- love the wake behind the one craft.
 
Debating German Armour can take a lifetime and will always be subjective,if you look at the 2 examples of S33 i posted ,you can see 2 different camo schemes, for the same tank dare i ask the obvious,which one is correct,Red Brown or Green,which colour plates do we refer to for clarity? It seems each platoon had a different camo scheme and disruptive colour over the 1943 uniform yellow,it seems to be the same in Leibstandartes 13th companie and Totenkopfs 9th companie at Kursk,when we model one of these Tigers is it personal choice or an educated guess on which camo to use ? any views ? ken
 
I wonder if the final release of the LCM will have 2 mounted 50 cal. MG (w/shield) on both sides of the pilot house? Will the ramp open down? I wish Andy will look at the Conte version. It was perfect but the scale. The Conte version was in 1/32 scale
 
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