What if....... (1 Viewer)

[chillywill]

Let's sat Germany would have landed troops during the Battle of Britain, could she have defeated the British I think so. Very few British and allied troops on the Isles to thwart a land attack. It would have been difficult but possible. Moscow should have been the primary target Stalin would have fled I believe leaving the country in chaos. I am just speculating in hindsight, but if the Germans entered Russia let us say in Feb instead of June and pushed into Moscow things could have been very different. I value everyone's opinions and love these topics

 

[Mitch]

If Barbarossa had taken place when it was actually planned I am sure that the good weather that the germans needed would have held and they would have taken Moscow. The restart of the moscow push showed the germans were on the up and, the movement of all those siberians would not have taken place as the threat from Japan would have still been a ''real'' threat

The actions that delayed this attack allowed the russian winter to stop the germans dead and, inadequately prepared for such a winter they could do nothing against the winter and the russian forces.

I would have thought that if the germans had landed we would have put up a good show in the early battles with the brits and germans we showed on the soil of France we could hold our own. Look at Rommels problem as one incident when he came up against the brits and the Matilda's

Interesting what if's
Mitch

Let's sat Germany would have landed troops during the Battle of Britain, could she have defeated the British I think so. Very few British and allied troops on the Isles to thwart a land attack. It would have been difficult but possible. Moscow should have been the primary target Stalin would have fled I believe leaving the country in chaos. I am just speculating in hindsight, but if the Germans entered Russia let us say in Feb instead of June and pushed into Moscow things could have been very different. I value everyone's opinions and love these topics

 

[chillywill]

Total agreement!!!! The British would have fought valiantly as always, but they were stretched so thin and I just wonder how that would have played out but I am glad the outcome was different of course. In retrospect could the Germans have been able to use the same tactics on British soil that they did on mainland Europe. In my humble opinion Hitler and Goering were fools!

 

[Terp152]

The British Army after Dunkirk was devoid of heavy weapons, ammunition, etc. Churchill visited some beach defenses and an anti-tank gun crew reported they had TWO rounds for their gun. Harsh words would not have had much effect against a panzer. Chris

 

[Jay]

I would imagine had the Germans invaded the UK the US would have gotten involved earlier, even against the popular opinion of the great percentage of the US population.

 

[Mitch]

I wonder if the germans had not declared war on the US after Pearl whether they would have entered into the european conflict much later, if, at all as, their thoughts were focused against the japanese at that time. I think the fall of the UK would have made it harder for the US to enter the european war not really pre-empted it
Mitch

I would imagine had the Germans invaded the UK the US would have gotten involved earlier, even against the popular opinion of the great percentage of the US population.

 

[trooper]

I wonder if the germans had not declared war on the US after Pearl whether they would have entered into the european conflict much later, if, at all as, their thoughts were focused against the japanese at that time. I think the fall of the UK would have made it harder for the US to enter the european war not really pre-empted it
Mitch

Without Britain as an off shore base distance alone would have influenced any decision for America to have got involved. It would have been impossible to have got to grips with the Germans and their full weight would have been directed at the Japanese. Germany might then have negotiated some form of alliance with them against Russia, although the response from Canada and Australia might have had some influence in this respect. Trooper

 

[Rob]

Thing is it appears neither Hitler or the German high command were fully 100% sure an invasion of Britain was wise. Luftwaffe chiefs were not convinced of their own chances of destroying enough of the Royal Navy to stop them sailing into the channel and spoiling the party. There were not enough purpose designed landing craft and the troops had not had extensive seaborne landing training. Also the Germans were uneasy about the 'welcome' they would receive on landing, there was a huge lack of confidence in this operation compared to the earlier victories the Germans enjoyed. Add to this the fact that the German army was tired following the French campaign and the morale of the Luftwaffe was taking a beating at the hands of the RAF and Goerings tactics and you have a recipe for what could have been a disaster.

Thankfully however we shall never know, because the glorious heroes of the RAF from all nations gave Goering such a kick in his fat backside that they felt the wobble way back in Berlin.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

the debt of gratitude the free world owes to the armed forces of the UK and, in particular the RAF for the massive defeat on Hitlers war machine in the BOB and the early part of WWII cannot be underestimated.

Love that quote rob about the wobble being felt all the way to Berlin!!! They never fully recovered from the malling over england
Mitch

 

[binder001]

The German Army was certainly capable enough, but getting it across the Channel and keeping it supplied would be another matter. This was gone into in depth on the Axis History forum. Without total control of the air the Germans lose a great deal of their effectiveness. Further without dominance of the air the Germans can't really keep the Royal Navy at bay. Personally I can't see the Admiralty allowing a major invasion to continue even if it meant putting the Hood herself into the Channel for close combat. With any kind of fighter cover the Stukas can't sink ALL the British ships. It would have been a bloody affair on both sides. Look at the effort that went into going from England to France, and the Allies had total air superiority and basically owned the ocean.

As far as a US "bailout" - In 1940 the US was still trying to stay out of the war, besides at that point the US was just starting to expand its armed forces, there just wouldn't be a lot of effective help that we could have sent. Our standing army was less than that of Portugal. There were few modern fighter or bomber aircraft, so the Navy would be about all the US had to send on short notice.

Fortunately the "bloody Narzis" couldn't gain control of the air, Churchill kept the people inspired to fight on and both the US and Britain still speak English today. Thank yous to the RN and the RAF!

 

[UKReb]

Thing is it appears neither Hitler or the German high command were fully 100% sure an invasion of Britain was wise. Luftwaffe chiefs were not convinced of their own chances of destroying enough of the Royal Navy to stop them sailing into the channel and spoiling the party. There were not enough purpose designed landing craft and the troops had not had extensive seaborne landing training. Also the Germans were uneasy about the 'welcome' they would receive on landing, there was a huge lack of confidence in this operation compared to the earlier victories the Germans enjoyed. Add to this the fact that the German army was tired following the French campaign and the morale of the Luftwaffe was taking a beating at the hands of the RAF and Goerings tactics and you have a recipe for what could have been a disaster.

Thankfully however we shall never know, because the glorious heroes of the RAF from all nations gave Goering such a kick in his fat backside that they felt the wobble way back in Berlin.

Rob

Some very important points contained here in Rob's posts and that's the problem with a What if.........it can get very muddled with a What Was..... The successes of the German army by 1940 even when viewed today are quite staggering and indeed even surprised them on how quickly they had cut through France. Consequently, the Nazis only cobbled the Sealion operation together following Dunkirk. And as any Brit knows the beach-heads they intially intended to land their forces on- Folkestone; Bexhill and Beachy Head shows they were clueless in understanding the tides, soil composition; gradients of the beach etc. As with two in particular they would have never have got their heavy armour off the beach. For our American colleagues that simply means that there are much better beach heads along the Channel coast than those selected by the Nazis.

But comments like this and Rob's simply neuter the essence of What If? So let's just say that the RAF in September 1940 ran out of Spits and Hurricanes or more probably experienced fighter pilots. The Royal Navy without any reliable air support has the unenviable task of stopping the Nazi invasion. (An interesting aside here. In the mid 80's a class of Naval Officer Cadets played that very scenario with an authentic war game as part of their training at the Royal Naval College Greenwich. As I viewed it I can tell you that to manoeuvre a fleet of WWII warships through the restricted confines of the narrow English channel is no mean task. And to launch a coordinated attack on an enemy invasion without any air support proved almost impossible)

Moving on the Germans have now landed on the beaches and link up with their paratroopers. IMO they would have cut through our defences like a hot knife through butter. Just do the maths:- a demoralised British army fighting with petrol bombs and .303's against -at the time- the best army in the world supported by Panzers and Stukas. Our boys would have fought valiantly and died in their hundreds-valiantly but the outcome would have been sealed with the first jack-boot treading on our beaches.

Britain has a long tradition of guerilla warfare against invaders and what with it being densely populated lends itself to urban warfare but that in itself would have been ineffective against the Germans without support or supplies.

The British government? Well there were already plans in place to ship the Royal family to Scotland and then on to Canada. Churchill? a moot point as it is doubtful he would have survived the defeat of the RAF and would have been replaced by that great appeaser Lord Halifax who would have swiftly sought peace negotiations, resulting in a puppet regime and collaboration. End of England as we know it.

I also concur with Binder's comments the US would have kept out of Europe on the simple premise that they couldn't have done a darn thing about it.

Reb

 

[Rob]

Some very important points contained here in Rob's posts and that's the problem with a What if.........it can get very muddled with a What Was..... The successes of the German army by 1940 even when viewed today are quite staggering and indeed even surprised them on how quickly they had cut through France. Consequently, the Nazis only cobbled the Sealion operation together following Dunkirk. And as any Brit knows the beach-heads they intially intended to land their forces on- Folkestone; Bexhill and Beachy Head shows they were clueless in understanding the tides, soil composition; gradients of the beach etc. As with two in particular they would have never have got their heavy armour off the beach. For our American colleagues that simply means that there are much better beach heads along the Channel coast than those selected by the Nazis.

But comments like this and Rob's simply neuter the essence of What If? So let's just say that the RAF in September 1940 ran out of Spits and Hurricanes or more probably experienced fighter pilots. The Royal Navy without any reliable air support has the unenviable task of stopping the Nazi invasion. (An interesting aside here. In the mid 80's a class of Naval Officer Cadets played that very scenario with an authentic war game as part of their training at the Royal Navy College Greenwich. As I viewed it I can tell you that to manoeuvre a fleet of WWII warships through the restricted confines of the narrow English channel is no mean task. And to launch a coordinated attack on an enemy invasion without any air support proved almost impossible)

Moving on the Germans have now landed on the beaches and link up with their paratroopers. IMO they would have cut through our defences like a hot knife through butter. Just do the maths:- a demoralised British army fighting with petrol bombs and .303's against -at the time- the best army in the world supported by Panzers and Stukas. Our boys would have fought valiantly and died in their hundreds-valiantly but the outcome would have been sealed with the first jack-boot treading on our beaches.

Britain has a long tradition of guerilla warfare against invaders and what with it being densely populated lends itself to urban warfare but that in itself would have been ineffective against the Germans without support or supplies.

The British government? Well there were already plans in place to ship the Royal family to Scotland and then on to Canada. Churchill? a moot point as it is doubtful he would have survived the defeat of the RAF and would have been replaced by that great appeaser Lord Halifax who would have swiftly sought peace negotiations, resulting in a puppet regime and collaboration. End of England as we know it.

I also concur with Binder's comments the US would have kept out of Europe on the simple premise that they couldn't have done a darn thing about it.

Reb

All interesting points my friend. I guess my answer was in the situation that the RAF were very much still in the fight and could offer protection to the RN, that for me is a key factor. I've heard Luftwaffe pilots doubt their skill in bombing RN ships and Stukas would have been sitting ducks for fighters during this operation. But these ' if's ' are fun, what if Haig hadn't been in charge on the Somme, and what if Chamberlain hadn't been atop little round top?:wink2:

Cheers

Rob

 

[trooper]

and what if Chamberlain hadn't been atop little round top?:wink2:

Cheers

Rob

With his brolley, waving a little piece of paper and shouting "Peace in our time"? Trooper

 

[Rob]

With his brolley, waving a little piece of paper and shouting "Peace in our time"? Trooper

^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin

I thought he looked old in WW2 Alan!

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

Some very important points contained here in Rob's posts and that's the problem with a What if.........it can get very muddled with a What Was..... The successes of the German army by 1940 even when viewed today are quite staggering and indeed even surprised them on how quickly they had cut through France. Consequently, the Nazis only cobbled the Sealion operation together following Dunkirk. And as any Brit knows the beach-heads they intially intended to land their forces on- Folkestone; Bexhill and Beachy Head shows they were clueless in understanding the tides, soil composition; gradients of the beach etc. As with two in particular they would have never have got their heavy armour off the beach. For our American colleagues that simply means that there are much better beach heads along the Channel coast than those selected by the Nazis.

But comments like this and Rob's simply neuter the essence of What If? So let's just say that the RAF in September 1940 ran out of Spits and Hurricanes or more probably experienced fighter pilots. The Royal Navy without any reliable air support has the unenviable task of stopping the Nazi invasion. (An interesting aside here. In the mid 80's a class of Naval Officer Cadets played that very scenario with an authentic war game as part of their training at the Royal Naval College Greenwich. As I viewed it I can tell you that to manoeuvre a fleet of WWII warships through the restricted confines of the narrow English channel is no mean task. And to launch a coordinated attack on an enemy invasion without any air support proved almost impossible)

Moving on the Germans have now landed on the beaches and link up with their paratroopers. IMO they would have cut through our defences like a hot knife through butter. Just do the maths:- a demoralised British army fighting with petrol bombs and .303's against -at the time- the best army in the world supported by Panzers and Stukas. Our boys would have fought valiantly and died in their hundreds-valiantly but the outcome would have been sealed with the first jack-boot treading on our beaches.

Britain has a long tradition of guerilla warfare against invaders and what with it being densely populated lends itself to urban warfare but that in itself would have been ineffective against the Germans without support or supplies.

The British government? Well there were already plans in place to ship the Royal family to Scotland and then on to Canada. Churchill? a moot point as it is doubtful he would have survived the defeat of the RAF and would have been replaced by that great appeaser Lord Halifax who would have swiftly sought peace negotiations, resulting in a puppet regime and collaboration. End of England as we know it.

I also concur with Binder's comments the US would have kept out of Europe on the simple premise that they couldn't have done a darn thing about it.

Reb

I completely concur with Bob's well reasoned analysis as well as Gary's.

Had the Nazi's obtained air supremacy, and been able to launch a cross-channel invasion, the Royal Navy, in the close confines of the Channel, would have been unable to prevent the landing, as the German air cover would have done to them what the Japanese Betty's did to the Prince of Wales and its sister ship in the Pacific. I have read a book arguing to the contrary, wherein it was asserted that the Royal Navy would have swamped the Nazi invasion fleet using their guns and even their wakes, but, frankly, thought it was poorly reasoned poppycock that clung to the idea of naval supremecy despite all evidence that once the opponent has air supremacy, a naval ship is merely a slowly moving target.

Once the Germans had boots on the ground, with armor, and more importantly, air support, it would have been only a matter of time.

As Gary pointed out, there is nothing the U.S. could have done about it. Absent the use of Great Britain as an unsinkable staging platform and aircraft carrier from which to launch the invasions of North Africa, Sicily, Italy and eventually Normandy, during which time the American forces were converted from ineffective green troops to combat veterans capable of effectively fighting, the United States would have had no means of intervening in Europe.

That's why, to me, the brave men of the RAF who won the Battle of Britain (and Goering and Hitler, who gave them the opportunity by shifting their atacks from the airfields to civilian targets) saved civilization.

 

[Mitch]

I wonder what the size of the channel has to do with the ships that would have first been used to attack the german naval forces attacking the UK??? We speak as if we would have used battleships in a sort of Yamato Musashi style suicide run against this superior force. The germans had hotch potch ships to transfer men and equipment across the channel that was barely capable of the job. If anyone has been frequently across the channel then one knows how unpredictable it is and how bad it can quickly turn on ships far better built than what the germans had and, not being attacked by RN destroyers cruiser and fast attack boats and submarines.

This firstly pre supposes that the entire RAF was redundant and, the german Luftwaffe became preficient in sinking ships at speed. If one looks at the attacks on channel shipping before the actual BOB very little was actually sunk by the stuka's et al of the Luftwaffe.

The RN would also have used destroyers and fast boats as mentioned above which, they had considerable numbers of first off before committing heavy capital ships. There was a world of difference in the attack against the Prince of Wales and Repulse and what would have happened in the channel. This thought of close combat in the channel being a disadvantage would have been equally detrimental to the attackers. Remember Norway. close battles in fjords where space was a premium and, air power was of little real advantage to either naval side.

The germans would have recieved such high casualties trying to cross the outcome would still have been the same no boots on ground
Mitch

 

[Louis Badolato]

I wonder what the size of the channel has to do with the ships that would have first been used to attack the german naval forces attacking the UK??? We speak as if we would have used battleships in a sort of Yamato Musashi style suicide run against this superior force. The germans had hotch potch ships to transfer men and equipment across the channel that was barely capable of the job. If anyone has been frequently across the channel then one knows how unpredictable it is and how bad it can quickly turn on ships far better built than what the germans had and, not being attacked by RN destroyers cruiser and fast attack boats and submarines.

This firstly pre supposes that the entire RAF was redundant and, the german Luftwaffe became preficient in sinking ships at speed. If one looks at the attacks on channel shipping before the actual BOB very little was actually sunk by the stuka's et al of the Luftwaffe.

The RN would also have used destroyers and fast boats as mentioned above which, they had considerable numbers of first off before committing heavy capital ships. There was a world of difference in the attack against the Prince of Wales and Repulse and what would have happened in the channel. This thought of close combat in the channel being a disadvantage would have been equally detrimental to the attackers. Remember Norway. close battles in fjords where space was a premium and, air power was of little real advantage to either naval side.

The germans would have recieved such high casualties trying to cross the outcome would still have been the same no boots on ground
Mitch

Mitch, do a little reading about the Royal Navy's heroic efforts to resupply Malta. Despite the British having air cover from both carriers and airbases on Malta, the German and Italian attackers sank more than half of the british vessels, and only when they were completely under the umbrella of the land based aircraft from Malta were the surviving ships able to make it into Malta's harbor. The German and Italian aircraft were attacking from air bases in North Africa and Sicily, and had only a very limited time over the target.

Imagine what would have happened to the British vessels approaching Malta if there were little or no RAF or Fleet Air Arm aircraft attempting to protect them, and if the German and Italian aircraft were taking off from airbases only a few miles from the ships.

Now place the vessels in the liited confines of the English Channel, and have them coing up against the Bismark, Scharnhorst and Prince Eugen, as well as countless E-Boats and U-Boats protecting the German barges, but only after getting past a swarm of ME 109's, ME 110's, Stukas, Heinkel HE 111's, Dornier flying pencils, et al.

Then ask yourself, what would have happened to the Allied fleet off Normandy if the Nazis, rather than the Allies, had complete air supremacy.

All I can say is I sure am glad we never had to find out if the Royal Navy could have taken on the German fleet and the Luftwaffe without air support.{sm2}

 

[Mitch]

I have read about Malta but, thanks for that. You mention three german capital ships one battle cruiser, cruiser and battleship but, the british could and would have fielded far greater numbers and, used smaller ships as I mentioned earlier. Also, the RN would not have been using and protecting merchant ships as in Malta not all of the time in that conflict but, more often than not. so, would have had the advantage of attack orientation

My point was that look at the naval vessals for both sides and we completely outnumbered them and as I said it pre supposes that every brit aircraft was redundant. even if that were true what about the bomber force?? This would have been used and is documented to bomb for me, everything the RN would have had available would have smashed everything the germans had in the sea at that time. We may have lost ships though I would venture not as many as is believed, but, what forces would the germans have had left. Again, as you draw me to Malta for support of your argument look at the abysmal showing of the Kriegsmarine in the Norweigian campaign.

Air support, I am not writing off but, it was their in this campaign and the brits slapped the germans in that naval encounter. We did not give up when we were on our own and bloodied Hitler many times and defending our island from German invasion may have cost nearly every RN ship but, there would have been no german ships left to carry supplies across the channel certainly non of the hotch pot built transports not really upto the sail across the channel in poor weather and high swells without being attacked by everything from corvette's submarines to the 16 inch shells of the brit battleships.
It would have been bloody but, in a battle of attrition the germans would have not had the sustainability that the greatest naval [power afloat would have had. IMO
Mitch

Mitch, do a little reading about the Royal Navy's heroic efforts to resupply Malta. Despite the British having air cover from both carriers and airbases on Malta, the German and Italian attackers sank more than half of the british vessels, and only when they were completely under the umbrella of the land based aircraft from Malta were the surviving ships able to make it into Malta's harbor. The German and Italian aircraft were attacking from air bases in North Africa and Sicily, and had only a very limited time over the target.

Imagine what would have happened to the British vessels approaching Malta if there were little or no RAF or Fleet Air Arm aircraft attempting to protect them, and if the German and Italian aircraft were taking off from airbases only a few miles from the ships.

Now place the vessels in the liited confines of the English Channel, and have them coing up against the Bismark, Scharnhorst and Prince Eugen, as well as countless E-Boats and U-Boats protecting the German barges, but only after getting past a swarm of ME 109's, ME 110's, Stukas, Heinkel HE 111's, Dornier flying pencils, et al.

Then ask yourself, what would have happened to the Allied fleet off Normandy if the Nazis, rather than the Allies, had complete air supremacy.

All I can say is I sure am glad we never had to find out if the Royal Navy could have taken on the German fleet and the Luftwaffe without air support.{sm2}

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Let's sat Germany would have landed troops during the Battle of Britain, could she have defeated the British I think so. Very few British and allied troops on the Isles to thwart a land attack. It would have been difficult but possible. Moscow should have been the primary target Stalin would have fled I believe leaving the country in chaos. I am just speculating in hindsight, but if the Germans entered Russia let us say in Feb instead of June and pushed into Moscow things could have been very different. I value everyone's opinions and love these topics

I think Britain realised if the Germans landed masses of troops and armor on British soil things would have gotten tough. One of the most important thoughts in the mind of each RAF pilot during the battle of britain was probably how things would turn out if the Germans had succeeded in the pending "Operation Sealion" .Another factor was the newly developed Radar being used by the RAF.
But.......The fighting will of the RAF prevented operation sealion from ever happening !

 

[Mitch]

I wonder if the RAF boys were actually thinking that and rather thinking about getting through the day and getting back to the mess for a night away from the intense battles they fought. It was from the bio's publsihed and my grandfathers comments and other BOB veterans about surviving and trying to stop what they were hurling at you was the most important factor.

The invasion tactics and what could have happened was for generals and politicians not the lads at the front IMO.
Mitch

I think Britain realised if the Germans landed masses of troops and armor on British soil things would have gotten tough. One of the most important thoughts in the mind of each RAF pilot during the battle of britain was probably how things would turn out if the Germans had succeeded in the pending "Operation Sealion" .Another factor was the newly developed Radar being used by the RAF.
But.......The fighting will of the RAF prevented operation sealion from ever happening !