When Will Prices Stabilize (1 Viewer)

[Louis Badolato]

I agree that K&C products retain their value very well over time. Too many times I have seen a simple $89.00 or $99.00 item sell for 4,5,6 times the initial purchase price. That is from first hand experience.

I think this is the reason K&C has no fear of losing collectors over the recent price increases: as long as old retired sets which are not of the present quality continue to sell for hundreds of dollars, why should Andy listen to collectors grousing about the retail prices? He knows that collectors are willing to spend much more.

 

[nmrocks]

When the difference in price between K&C and FL is less than $10 per figure many more collectors will switch some or most of their spending to the latter. FL quality warrants a $10 plus differential.
The caveat, however, being that K&C has more variety that attracts a wider audience and a long history with loyal collectors. I must also add that K&C's value has appreciated over time and we don't see that with other makers yet.
I don't think the price increases from K&C are totally due to cost increases. They may want to put themselves in a more exclusive marketing category.
I agree that this could be a mistake but they do have many loyal collectors who will always find something to buy from them.
I spend less of my budget on K&C but still find many of their items hard to resist.

Sorry to disagree but even if FL cost the same as K&C I'm sticking with K&C I prefer the K&C figures hands down, I've tried several times bought many FL of different eras, but they just don't do it for me. Not trying to swerve off subject.

 

[jazzeum]

The fallacy with your arguments is that prices on retired items in the last few years have fallen. Older items will generally do well because of scarcity. Except for certain items, prices on retired items have slowed their steady march.

 

[MCKENNA77]

I give it about 18 to 24 months for the price to stabilize or out right decrease. I think this will happen because some manufactures will go bust and stop making product. Let's face it, toy soldier collecting is very much a niche market. Now that prices have increased roughly 60% or more since 2005, youre making an already niche market even smaller. Thus less people buying less product. Do you spend as much on the hobby as you did 3 years ago? I doubt most people would say yes.

In terms of the secondary market, yes older sets will usually fetch a profit. Newer sets, yeah not so much. In fact, you can find deals on newer figures for up to and around 50% of retail. That would never happen four to six years ago. The problem is the secondary market prices almost matter now. If I change my mind and sell some sets to gain new product can I get $42 a figure for it? Probably not. Yes I know a lot of collectors don't collect for monetary value or sell their sets. Yet some do, and those who do will probably cease doing that. Again, less people buying less product.

For me, I will never pay $42 for a single figure. To me, that's not cost effective. I will have to resort to trades and finding deals in the classifieds or on ebay. When the single figure cost a year ago was roughly $32, the times they are a changing. I hate to say it because I love collecting but I think a cold wind might be blowing through the hobby.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

Its interesting to me to see how so many of the matte guys are deeply into this discussion on more than one section of this forum and other sites and fail to see the reasons for some of the wild price increases. Some companies have recently come into this arena to try and compete with the likes of Medallion Miniatures and AeroArt because they werent interested in the smaller fish to begin with, so their prices and quality are aimed at the upper end of the collectors market while they are marketing to the lower end of the market and their initail prices aren't so high that most guys aren't willing to buy one or two. But to my view they really arent interested in collectors like this they are looking for the guys with a lot of cash to spend and want the highest quality figures in large formations or shelf vignettes.

A while back another company came out of the cottage industry level in this arena and decided to compete with WBritains. They did this by taking the game to the next level by changing the scale of choice for over 100 years and going to matte paint, this was an amazing move and could have gone either way but it was successful and the company has developed into the leader for WWII. But now about 20 years later they are getting some competition in WWII by a few smaller companies and are now looking to get this market share back. So the question is how do we do this? They have done somethings like limited editons of 250 world wide etc, but still they have guys nipping at their market share so the next logical move is to raise the prices and (hopefully) quality and go to the level of the likes of AeroArt etc. This my friends is where the Toy Soldiers end and the Military Miniatures begin. So if you want deeply realistic, properly equiped and life like sculpting that so many of the matte guys were clammoring for on this site and others over the past few years, then you will have to pay the prices being asked and probably will have to dig deeper into your wallet because for that sort of detail you will likely see 100+ in the not too distant future. I'm surprised that you matte guys didnt notice this trend coming especially with the deeply limited editions being offered. 250 vehicles of one type world wide is a really limited edition and it seemed to me that it was a clear statement of intent to drop the little collectors and move up to where the big guys are.

Dave

 

[Obee]

Prices won't stabilise.....

they will continue to go up, as they always have....

I know people are bagging K&C, but I haven't heard any complaints about other makers, or are people happy with any increases they do?

For example I mostly have my own hand painted figures in my colletcion, reason is I could't pay $21 for a K&C Foot NAP when they were relased.

I had the skills to paint my own, so decided to buy castings.

Tradition of London, as an example, in 2008 used to sell their Toy Soldier foot castings for £ 5.95 but now they are £ 7.95 and model foot figures at £ 7.95 and are now £ 10.85.

No outcry there?

No "I won't buy them any more"

If you like it, you will buy it... if you can't afford it.... SAVE UP, get a Bank Loan, or Don't buy.

Thats the free market economy we live it..... only time will tell .

My thoughts...

John

 

[uksubs]

I agree that K&C products retain their value very well over time. Too many times I have seen a simple $89.00 or $99.00 item sell for 4,5,6 times the initial purchase price. That is from first hand experience.

I'm sorry to say I've not seen any of K&C stuff made in the last two year sell on ebay for more than the RRP most has sold for less and I think the reason is there to much of the stuff being made , I'm not in the hobby to make a profit & would not buy the stuff as a investment ,if you think I'm making it up just watch ebay for a week

 

[Mitch]

I think your right about the prices. Some old stuff sells well but, that goes for most companies new stuff is on the whole poor in terms of resale.

As for price stabalising why would it?? if you can put up prices with ever increasing frequency and you have sufficient sales they will never have to go down. As Frank has recently said collectors will eventually do their talking with their money and look for either better pricing or leave the hobby completely.
Mitch

I'm sorry to say I've not seen any of K&C stuff made in the last two year sell on ebay for more than the RRP most has sold for less and I think the reason is there to much of the stuff being made , I'm not in the hobby to make a profit & would not buy the stuff as a investment ,if you think I'm making it up just watch ebay for a week

 

[DMNamiot]

hi guys,

John raises a good point about price point and options. I too do some painting so its also an option to consider.

Also good points from Mitch and UKSubs.

Dave

 

[wwiibuff]

I'm for the most part a WW2 collector, and I haven't bought a AFV in many months now mainly due to the rise in prices ( I mostly collect K&C). And with figures also going up, that has also slowed me down on those as well. I may purchase a couple of figures at the $32 level or less, or try and find a deal or two on ebay. I'm not going to pay the prices that are currently being asked by K&C, whatever the reasons for the increase. I have many old plastic armor kits 1/35 and airplane kits 1/48, 1/32, 1/72 that are in storage that I've been getting out and building lately instead of purchasing. I guess this is what I will concentrate on going forward.

 

[panda1gen]

I'm for the most part a WW2 collector, and I haven't bought a AFV in many months now mainly due to the rise in prices ( I mostly collect K&C). And with figures also going up, that has also slowed me down on those as well. I may purchase a couple of figures at the $32 level or less, or try and find a deal or two on ebay. I'm not going to pay the prices that are currently being asked by K&C, whatever the reasons for the increase. I have many old plastic armor kits 1/35 and airplane kits 1/48, 1/32, 1/72 that are in storage that I've been getting out and building lately instead of purchasing. I guess this is what I will concentrate on going forward.

My 2 cents worth - I would have bought the new K&C Typhoon (and ideally the P47 as well), but was also surprised at the price (around £360+ around $500 dollars?) and have not yet dived in. In context, I picked up an older 1/32 Corgi mossie for £50 recently, but it is by no means the iconic Typhoon Andy has made. As for prices generally, they have obviously shot up, although people complained when the superb HB winter panthers in the UK went for £125 around 2008. What price now?

I also so far only collected matt ww2. I regret not a penny spent as the enjoyment is there, whether it has held its value or not.

I have bought very little over the past couple of years due to outside factors, but was slowing buying K&C anyway, on price mainly, but it is still my favourite brand (sorry Clive). I have bought more Figarti as they were making what I wanted more - especially the Brit armour.

But, when I look around the shows - especially since Louis Badolato forced me to photgraph the old K&C glossies (sic ^&grin) and I started to appreciate that style more, if I carry on collecting, not certain, I may now think about the glossy redcoats and Sudan I have been admiring for years.

ATS do their superb RN boats with a dozen or so figures for less than the typhoon for example .......... look at GICOP's photos and the Lt's for other examples, so I also agree with the comments about balance and other opportunity, especially when I see lovely glossy figures for £12 -£15, sometimes less.

As for Andy being 'accused' of huge price hikes, if you read the old catalogues or the books Louis and did on K&C (more on the way as soon as I can manage it), in the mid nineties - 15 years ago - Andy was putting out wooden tanks at $350 or so, only fifty or less made, before he innovated with polystone and could make bigger runs of them at a lower price and presumably grew market share. If he can now make his margins better by small run high price and quality items, good look to him. I might not buy this time, but who cares ....

 

[Napoleon1er]

Hi Guys,

Its interesting to me to see how so many of the matte guys are deeply into this discussion on more than one section of this forum and other sites and fail to see the reasons for some of the wild price increases. Some companies have recently come into this arena to try and compete with the likes of Medallion Miniatures and AeroArt because they werent interested in the smaller fish to begin with, so their prices and quality are aimed at the upper end of the collectors market while they are marketing to the lower end of the market and their initail prices aren't so high that most guys aren't willing to buy one or two. But to my view they really arent interested in collectors like this they are looking for the guys with a lot of cash to spend and want the highest quality figures in large formations or shelf vignettes.

A while back another company came out of the cottage industry level in this arena and decided to compete with WBritains. They did this by taking the game to the next level by changing the scale of choice for over 100 years and going to matte paint, this was an amazing move and could have gone either way but it was successful and the company has developed into the leader for WWII. But now about 20 years later they are getting some competition in WWII by a few smaller companies and are now looking to get this market share back. So the question is how do we do this? They have done somethings like limited editons of 250 world wide etc, but still they have guys nipping at their market share so the next logical move is to raise the prices and (hopefully) quality and go to the level of the likes of AeroArt etc. This my friends is where the Toy Soldiers end and the Military Miniatures begin. So if you want deeply realistic, properly equiped and life like sculpting that so many of the matte guys were clammoring for on this site and others over the past few years, then you will have to pay the prices being asked and probably will have to dig deeper into your wallet because for that sort of detail you will likely see 100+ in the not too distant future. I'm surprised that you matte guys didnt notice this trend coming especially with the deeply limited editions being offered. 250 vehicles of one type world wide is a really limited edition and it seemed to me that it was a clear statement of intent to drop the little collectors and move up to where the big guys are.

Dave

I think I agree with the idea that K&C is moving toward a different market, except that I don't see a change in quality. To my eyes, K&C and WBritain are the same quality (Britains might even be getting ahead a bit), while K&C is trying to market like they were FL. I also think that we will see WBritain, with it's good prices, take the lead in the next 10 years, as people have to make the decision of brand loyalty vs. prices.
-Sandor

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I'm sorry to say I've not seen any of K&C stuff made in the last two year sell on ebay for more than the RRP most has sold for less and I think the reason is there to much of the stuff being made , I'm not in the hobby to make a profit & would not buy the stuff as a investment ,if you think I'm making it up just watch ebay for a week

First off not all items sold do great. Many retired WWII items do quite well.

Here are some good examples. These were made 4-5 years ago. K&C LAH lamp post set: original retail $21.00 e-bay auction prices: $123.00 / $157.00 / $211.00

K&C WS070 winter tiger: original retail : $199.00 e-bay auction prices $400.00 - $475.00

K&C RA013 T-34 tank: original retail: $99.00 e-bay auction $286.00 $328.00

I think in general retired WWII European Theater items going back 4 - 6 years do great, especially German items.

By the way 2 years ago I needed to purchase a new vehicle and decided to sell a $10,000 initial investment of K&C WWII items to realize a $4,000 profit = $14,000 total return. I must be mistaken as I handed the car dealership the money !!! ........NOT.

 

[Terp152]

I think I agree with the idea that K&C is moving toward a different market, except that I don't see a change in quality. To my eyes, K&C and WBritain are the same quality (Britains might even be getting ahead a bit), while K&C is trying to market like they were FL. I also think that we will see WBritain, with it's good prices, take the lead in the next 10 years, as people have to make the decision of brand loyalty vs. prices.
-Sandor

Sandor, I'm with your analysis. Don't see the quality difference between these two manufacturers. I collect both (or did in the past) and well satisfied in that regard. Looks like KC has changed marketing strategy (as opposed to the "economics" rationale so often cited).

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I think a big factor in a companies overall success is their price point on their products. In a business where the product is used widely by the population then the bigger the company, the cheaper they may be able to offer their customers their products. But here we are talking a very exclusive luxery item (Detailed hand painted Pewter) soldiers. The majority of the buying public pays little attention to our hobby.Some scoff at it remarking"Oh you collect little men" or that type of thinking, While others viewing a well displayed collection for the first time might say "Wow, where did you get these from" ??? I think If our hobby had a little more exposure to it more people would buy. Through greater volume of sales the manufacturers would then have the opportunity to lower their prices being they are now selling more through "Volume" sales. I truly believe if all the companies got more exposure of their products out to the buying public we would "All" benefit from it !!! Produce a little more and sell a little bit less price wise.............
I never knew myself such items as these existed until I stumbled across them by sheer accident on the internet.Think about it.The more businesses that sell the products the more people will be made aware that our adult hobby exists.I think the sprinkling of a limited amount of dealers across the country is keeping everything isolated,thus allowing prices to steadily keep rising based on current economic events.

 

[uksubs]

First off not all items sold do great. Many retired WWII items do quite well.

Here are some good examples. These were made 4-5 years ago. K&C LAH lamp post set: original retail $21.00 e-bay auction prices: $123.00 / $157.00 / $211.00

K&C WS070 winter tiger: original retail : $199.00 e-bay auction prices $400.00 - $475.00

K&C RA013 T-34 tank: original retail: $99.00 e-bay auction $286.00 $328.00

I think in general retired WWII European Theater items going back 4 - 6 years do great, especially German items.

By the way 2 years ago I needed to purchase a new vehicle and decided to sell a $10,000 initial investment of K&C WWII items to realize a $4,000 profit = $14,000 total return. I must be mistaken as I handed the car dealership the money !!! ........NOT.

If you read my post I said K&C stuff made in the last two not selling for a profit , everyone know old K&C stuff go for top $ but it the same with every hobby

 

[PanzerAce1944]

If you read my post I said K&C stuff made in the last two not selling for a profit , everyone know old K&C stuff go for top $ but it the same with every hobby

I know it. Buy a hot WWII German release. Wait 1 or 2 years after it retires and...... Enjoy !!! ^&grin

 

[uksubs]

I think a big factor in a companies overall success is their price point on their products. In a business where the product is used widely by the population then the bigger the company, the cheaper they may be able to offer their customers their products. But here we are talking a very exclusive luxery item (Detailed hand painted Pewter) soldiers. The majority of the buying public pays little attention to our hobby.Some scoff at it remarking"Oh you collect little men" or that type of thinking, While others viewing a well displayed collection for the first time might say "Wow, where did you get these from" ??? I think If our hobby had a little more exposure to it more people would buy. Through greater volume of sales the manufacturers would then have the opportunity to lower their prices being they are now selling more through "Volume" sales. I truly believe if all the companies got more exposure of their products out to the buying public we would "All" benefit from it !!! Produce a little more and sell a little bit less price wise.............
I never knew myself such items as these existed until I stumbled across them by sheer accident on the internet.Think about it.The more businesses that sell the products the more people will be made aware that our adult hobby exists.I think the sprinkling of a limited amount of dealers across the country is keeping everything isolated,thus allowing prices to steadily keep rising based on current economic events.

I think Andy at K&C know by now how to run his business by now don't you think :rolleyes2:

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I think Andy at K&C know by now how to run his business by now don't you think :rolleyes2:

Where at all was Andy or K&C mentioned ???? Your scaring me subs... Really.

 

[uksubs]

Where at all was Andy or K&C mentioned ???? Your scaring me subs... Really.

I'm not the one who think he 219 was in the battle of Britain am I

:wink2::wink2:^&grin