Where Do We Go From Here? (2 Viewers)

[jazzeum]

We've done a ring around the posey on this question several times and I suspect some are still on the fence about buying some. However, if you like this range, like I do, you will want to buy a couple.

K & C could have many reasons for pricing it the way they did. It could be costs, increasing the bottom line or whatever. I'm not here to tell them how to run their company, particularly as I'm not taking the risks they do. Some may complain that other companies wouldn't set a price at that price point. Every company is different, with different cultures, different mouthed to feed, etc.

Im sure we could go and on about this but I think we've done that already and at this point minds are not going to be changed.

Things are expensive generally and our hobby is no exception. If you think it's too expensive, you won't buy, if you don't you will. K & C, like everyone else, has to live with the consequences of their decision.

 

[uksubs]

Imagine how much these figures will be worth when King and Country go out of business next month{sm4} Every piece of financial advice I have ever received centred on diversification as the key to economic survival. Three ranges at different prices seems to me to be the TS equivalent. If I look at Arnhem or future P figures in ranges that I do collect and think 'too dear', like Goldilocks I move to the next bed and find something both up to my tastes and down to my pockets. No need for Maserati to cease production because most of us buy the hat and then drive a family sedan. A business has made a financial decision based on their knowledge of the market. It happens every day. Even some critics of the entire concept are observing that they will buy some rather than all of the figures given the higher price. Others will buy cheaper figures, perhaps from other manufacturers, some will, leave the hobby, others will join. I have continued to spend the same amount but I accept that this will mean fewer figures or that I need to explore other areas of the hobby. I have started buying some glossies, mixing plastic models with metal figures, looking at other manufacturers, done a bit of overtime, cut down on Kentucy Fried and made it clear to every family member that on birthdays and at Christmas I will accept nothing but TS. No illustrated histories of WW 1 from the bargain bin any more ... just TS.

Think your missing the main point Jack KC are charging a premium for the P range but most people out side Australia can't see a difference, but think you would between a Maserati and a family sedan don't you ? I also don't think it got anything to do with people spending power

 

[Jack]

Think your missing the main point Jack KC are charging a premium for the P range but most people out side Australia can't see a difference, but think you would between a Maserati and a family sedan don't you ? I also don't think it got anything to do with people spending power

Maybe we have better eyesight downunder!{sm4}

Seriously though, it is not like a government service like car registration where a charge is made and there are no options. Andy is not charging anything. He is offering a product at a price. People can choose not to pay.

That said, as I do not collect Arhnem it is easy for me to be calm about it.

 

[uksubs]

Maybe we have better eyesight downunder!{sm4}

Seriously though, it is not like a government service like car registration where a charge is made and there are no options. Andy is not charging anything. He is offering a product at a price. People can choose not to pay.

That said, as I do not collect Arhnem it is easy for me to be calm about it.

Fair comment Jack :salute::

 

[Eazy]

We've done a ring around the posey on this question several times and I suspect some are still on the fence about buying some. However, if you like this range, like I do, you will want to buy a couple.

K & C could have many reasons for pricing it the way they did. It could be costs, increasing the bottom line or whatever. I'm not here to tell them how to run their company, particularly as I'm not taking the risks they do. Some may complain that other companies wouldn't set a price at that price point. Every company is different, with different cultures, different mouthed to feed, etc.

Im sure we could go and on about this but I think we've done that already and at this point minds are not going to be changed.

Things are expensive generally and our hobby is no exception. If you think it's too expensive, you won't buy, if you don't you will. K & C, like everyone else, has to live with the consequences of their decision.

Hey Brad,

Agree with you on this. Things are getting more expensive but let's be honest collecting K&C has seen price rises in the past couple of years far far beyond any other aspect of my life!

I don't think too many hobbies have seen this kind of rise for no real discernible difference.
Anyway I haven't bought a new K&C item since October 2012.
At one time that would have been unthinkable. Now I'm not bothered at all!

I'm sure K&C have lots of new customers to make up for it though. Unless there are lots like me!

 

[jazzeum]

James,

There are consequences to every decision and, just like most of us, K & C will have to accept the good with the bad.

I, too, haven't purchased much K & C lately. Some of that has to do with that I'm no longer interested that much in WW II and some has to do with that I've become more interested in Trophy. However, I was going to collect more of the West range but with the price rises, I will not and may sell what I have.

Cheers,

Brad

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Many very good posts that I think are on the money.

Remember some wise advice for how to collect toy soldiers that's been around a long time and still rings true for me. "Buy what you like and what you can afford" So if you like a model, think it is worth the money, and can afford it, you can buy it. Just because one likes a model doesn't mean one has to buy it just as reducing toy soldier purchases or even stopping purchases altogether does not cause one to lose his toy soldier collector status. There are lots of choices.
And for the record, I think it is pathetic to publicly apologize to to a manufacturer for expressing the true feelings of unfair price and quality changes in a range like Arnhem.

Terry

 

[Mitch]

have to agree with Neil you and others miss the point completely in this issue. Its not about those that want to wear Porsche or Maserati clothing whilst driving a little car (I find that sad myself and know one person who actually does this!!) or eating substitute Kentucky or even some of the nonsense (I believe its nonsense so, no individual identifying of posters just the concept) about stereo's and costs of other absolutely not connected merchandise. Its the fact that there is a statement that a product is P level higher quality better paint better sculpt and thus needs a higher price point yet, what is abundantly clear is that a great number of collectors don't see this.

Now, some may and have early on tried to say its the usual suspects and the anti K&C people or, the best one the nonsensical tall poppy syndrome that has been used to counter discussion on this subject is not true. It may have held a little validity had it been people who don't buy or like K&C but, its long term who collectors of this manufacturer and some dyed-in-the wool collectors who dislike this increase in price for no increase in anything for want of a better way to put it.

The difference should have been as easy to see as (lets take my own preferred range LAH as an example) from the figures LAH2 to LAH142

Its that simple.
Mitch

Imagine how much these figures will be worth when King and Country go out of business next month{sm4} Every piece of financial advice I have ever received centred on diversification as the key to economic survival. Three ranges at different prices seems to me to be the TS equivalent. If I look at Arnhem or future P figures in ranges that I do collect and think 'too dear', like Goldilocks I move to the next bed and find something both up to my tastes and down to my pockets. No need for Maserati to cease production because most of us buy the hat and then drive a family sedan. A business has made a financial decision based on their knowledge of the market. It happens every day. Even some critics of the entire concept are observing that the is no substantial shifyey will buy some rather than all of the figures given the higher price. Others will buy cheaper figures, perhaps from other manufacturers, some will, leave the hobby, others will join. I have continued to spend the same amount but I accept that this will mean fewer figures or that I need to explore other areas of the hobby. I have started buying some glossies, mixing plastic models with metal figures, looking at other manufacturers, done a bit of overtime, cut down on Kentucy Fried and made it clear to every family member that on birthdays and at Christmas I will accept nothing but TS. No illustrated histories of WW 1 from the bargain bin any more ... just TS.

 

[Cyber Field Marshall]

As a concept I have no problem with "P". I can choose not to buy into it. Give me as a collector other price point options though! I hope that mainstream releases that are non-"P" are released and that ofcourse includes Arnhem. My fear is that we will never see a non-"P" release of Arnhem para's and that "P" releases become the norm. That is a situation I cannot stomach.

 

[vandilay]

I had wondered what K and C could do if they put there resources behind a more detailed range of figures .
I think the mistake here was realising them into an existing range with the risk of alienating guys who where
already fans of the existing figures.
Had they started a new series or range it gives you the option of not starting if they don't appeal or are
too expensive, if you are an existing Arnhem collector though its a case of suck it up or give up now.

 

[cnq]

Hey Brad,

Agree with you on this. Things are getting more expensive but let's be honest collecting K&C has seen price rises in the past couple of years far far beyond any other aspect of my life!

I don't think too many hobbies have seen this kind of rise for no real discernible difference.
Anyway I haven't bought a new K&C item since October 2012.
At one time that would have been unthinkable. Now I'm not bothered at all!

I'm sure K&C have lots of new customers to make up for it though. Unless there are lots like me!

Same here I give up buying new K&C figures completely. The last item was the Snow Tiger few years ago.
There is the old Patrol Jeep I still want to get but only if the price is lower or same as retail ^&grin.

 

[damian]

Must say I cannot see much difference between the old Market Garden figures and the new ones.

 

[Guy]

Good idea.....and if I may make a suggestion....while you have the paint brush out....paint a soldier as he really looks like in the field....dirty and scruffy

You bet I will paint them as close to reality as possible ( like I always do)
guy

 

[Jack]

have to agree with Neil you and others miss the point completely in this issue. Its not about those that want to wear Porsche or Maserati clothing whilst driving a little car (I find that sad myself and know one person who actually does this!!) or eating substitute Kentucky or even some of the nonsense (I believe its nonsense so, no individual identifying of posters just the concept) about stereo's and costs of other absolutely not connected merchandise. Its the fact that there is a statement that a product is P level higher quality better paint better sculpt and thus needs a higher price point yet, what is abundantly clear is that a great number of collectors don't see this.

Now, some may and have early on tried to say its the usual suspects and the anti K&C people or, the best one the nonsensical tall poppy syndrome that has been used to counter discussion on this subject is not true. It may have held a little validity had it been people who don't buy or like K&C but, its long term who collectors of this manufacturer and some dyed-in-the wool collectors who dislike this increase in price for no increase in anything for want of a better way to put it.

The difference should have been as easy to see as (lets take my own preferred range LAH as an example) from the figures LAH2 to LAH142

Its that simple.
Mitch

Mitch

I hope Andy is not holding off on buying that second yacht based on our discussion. You have made it abundantly clear that the new figures are not worth the price increase and you will not be buying. I have made it equally clear that I believe that it is a business decision and that K&C are entitled to make it but as I do not collect the range I will not be buying at any price. I suspect that our influence on his decisions might not be all that we think.

I do think the 'missing the point completely' comment is, however, not quite on the money. 'The point' for each of us is different. I have not missed the point ... I have just missed your point. As a painter and collector you look at the figures differently than I do. As a collector I wander around and buy what looks nice and if its too dear, I buy something else or buy eight figures in a ten figure range or just buy the figures more slowly. As such, I do not suggest that you have missed the point entirely. You have just missed my point because we have a different approach, different collecting habits, perhaps even different temperaments. I buy from seven manufacturers and a ten dollar glossy gives me as much pleasure as the dearest figure in my collection. I am very judgemental of people but when it comes to TS I am Martin Luther King!

In fact every post on the new figures has not so much 'got the point' or 'missed the point' but rather represents the expression of a very personal point. Each of us buys based on a myriad of personal influences - income, disposable income, time of life, career prospects, longevity in the hobby, other calls on our money, support of spouse, proximity to a shop and so and so on. 'Not worth the money' is a personal opinion that is completely valid for the person making it but is not necessarily valid for everyone. I have seen the figures up close and think that they look great. Again a personal view because I think pretty much everything in my local shop looks great. I have stood beside experienced painters who can see a difference and think they represent solid value. That is their view but they collect differently from me.

Where you are completely and utterly wrong is suggesting that there is a substitute for Kentucky Fried Chicken. That is, as you say, nonsense.

Jack

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Something Jack posted really struck home. As a collector I wander around and buy what looks nice and if its too dear, I buy something else or buy eight figures in a ten figure range or just buy the figures more slowly. I buy from seven manufacturers and a ten dollar glossy gives me as much pleasure as the dearest figure in my collection.

That is how I have been collecting for the last several years and Jack has well expressed how I feel. If I want to buy the historically important K&C 38(t) with mud in it's tracks and a near $200 price tag, I will and have done so. Same for a couple of Belgian soldiers at Waterloo by MM Miniatures and a few glossy British Empire Redcoats from Britain's for $24 or a FL Renaissance figure for $75. As long as the total stays within my small budget I can pick and choose.

And Jack, where do you get $10 glossies.

Terry

 

[Jack]

Something Jack posted really struck home. As a collector I wander around and buy what looks nice and if its too dear, I buy something else or buy eight figures in a ten figure range or just buy the figures more slowly. I buy from seven manufacturers and a ten dollar glossy gives me as much pleasure as the dearest figure in my collection.

That is how I have been collecting for the last several years and Jack has well expressed how I feel. If I want to buy the historically important K&C 38(t) with mud in it's tracks and a near $200 price tag, I will and have done so. Same for a couple of Belgian soldiers at Waterloo by MM Miniatures and a few glossy British Empire Redcoats from Britain's for $24 or a FL Renaissance figure for $75. As long as the total stays within my small budget I can pick and choose.

And Jack, where do you get $10 glossies.

Terry

Dear Terry aka 'Conscience of a Nation'

You got me - I appear to have exaggerated for effect - they were 14 dollars from memory{sm4}. I have bought some figures from Tommy Atkins and have been very pleased with them and intend to buy more. They are different from my Jenkins, K&C, Britains and TG but they are more interesting for that difference. I have also bought some of the Britains Ceremonial range and over time will build up a big parade. I am going to buy a 31 piece band from the British Toy Soldier company when I am in England in September because I can save close to a hundred dollars by carrying it home. If my TS shop sold more glossies I would probably make them 50 percent of my collection. There is no incentive for him because I will not spend more I will just get more!

Regards

Jack

 

[Mitch]

I don't really care about or try to influence any manufacturer I leave that to the myriad of ''friends'' of the manufacturers I say it as I see it no more no less. Its also not my point its a great many people's point about this range that there is no marked difference otherwise these lone voices would have been removed from the thread long ago as somewhat disruptive and spoiling the fun of the majority. Its harder when its a larger group actually saying the same point. That actually is my only point to you and that stereo's guitars and sports cars etc has in reality nothing to do with it. Its this forums well used mantra of the apples and oranges.

You equate these decisions with the way you see it in terms of the ability to wear and buy certain cars and cut backs on food others on stereo's and other items where I just look at what is advertised as X in front of me and see if it is actually X or just a bit Y

For me, its whether they are what they say they are. The price is secondary if they were a higher level they would be on my shelf now whatever their price.

Anyway, in a few days we will have some dispatches with new releases maybe more P maybe the peasant ranges will be introduced maybe FL will release their Waffen SS or the Figarti stuka will be available. just another day in the Toy soldier world
Mitch

Mitch

I hope Andy is not holding off on buying that second yacht based on our discussion. You have made it abundantly clear that the new figures are not worth the price increase and you will not be buying. I have made it equally clear that I believe that it is a business decision and that K&C are entitled to make it but as I do not collect the range I will not be buying at any price. I suspect that our influence on his decisions might not be all that we think.

I do think the 'missing the point completely' comment is, however, not quite on the money. 'The point' for each of us is different. I have not missed the point ... I have just missed your point. As a painter and collector you look at the figures differently than I do. As a collector I wander around and buy what looks nice and if its too dear, I buy something else or buy eight figures in a ten figure range or just buy the figures more slowly. As such, I do not suggest that you have missed the point entirely. You have just missed my point because we have a different approach, different collecting habits, perhaps even different temperaments. I buy from seven manufacturers and a ten dollar glossy gives me as much pleasure as the dearest figure in my collection. I am very judgemental of people but when it comes to TS I am Martin Luther King!

In fact every post on the new figures has not so much 'got the point' or 'missed the point' but rather represents the expression of a very personal point. Each of us buys based on a myriad of personal influences - income, disposable income, time of life, career prospects, longevity in the hobby, other calls on our money, support of spouse, proximity to a shop and so and so on. 'Not worth the money' is a personal opinion that is completely valid for the person making it but is not necessarily valid for everyone. I have seen the figures up close and think that they look great. Again a personal view because I think pretty much everything in my local shop looks great. I have stood beside experienced painters who can see a difference and think they represent solid value. That is their view but they collect differently from me.

Where you are completely and utterly wrong is suggesting that there is a substitute for Kentucky Fried Chicken. That is, as you say, nonsense.

Jack

 

[Desertkiwi]

I don't really care about or try to influence any manufacturer I leave that to the myriad of ''friends'' of the manufacturers I say it as I see it no more no less. Its also not my point its a great many people's point about this range that there is no marked difference otherwise these lone voices would have been removed from the thread long ago as somewhat disruptive and spoiling the fun of the majority. Its harder when its a larger group actually saying the same point. That actually is my only point to you and that stereo's guitars and sports cars etc has in reality nothing to do with it. Its this forums well used mantra of the apples and oranges.

You equate these decisions with the way you see it in terms of the ability to wear and buy certain cars and cut backs on food others on stereo's and other items where I just look at what is advertised as X in front of me and see if it is actually X or just a bit Y

For me, its whether they are what they say they are. The price is secondary if they were a higher level they would be on my shelf now whatever their price.

Anyway, in a few days we will have some dispatches with new releases maybe more P maybe the peasant ranges will be introduced maybe FL will release their Waffen SS or the Figarti stuka will be available. just another day in the Toy soldier world
Mitch

Mitch did you actually read Jacks post or are you merely wanting the last word?........you've repeatedly made your point, over and over again and over again, you started right back when K&C first introduced the 'P' range and in all fairness you haven't really stopped.......

I'm sure members get what you're saying, but have you ever heard of the saying 'more means less and less means more'??

For the sake of world peace mate.......let it go, you've made your point, move on.........please!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jack]

I don't really care about or try to influence any manufacturer I leave that to the myriad of ''friends'' of the manufacturers I say it as I see it no more no less. Its also not my point its a great many people's point about this range that there is no marked difference otherwise these lone voices would have been removed from the thread long ago as somewhat disruptive and spoiling the fun of the majority. Its harder when its a larger group actually saying the same point. That actually is my only point to you and that stereo's guitars and sports cars etc has in reality nothing to do with it. Its this forums well used mantra of the apples and oranges.

You equate these decisions with the way you see it in terms of the ability to wear and buy certain cars and cut backs on food others on stereo's and other items where I just look at what is advertised as X in front of me and see if it is actually X or just a bit Y

For me, its whether they are what they say they are. The price is secondary if they were a higher level they would be on my shelf now whatever their price.

Anyway, in a few days we will have some dispatches with new releases maybe more P maybe the peasant ranges will be introduced maybe FL will release their Waffen SS or the Figarti stuka will be available. just another day in the Toy soldier world
Mitch

Mitch

A lot of what you have said is actually a reply to other people's posts rather than my little contribution. I did not mention people being removed from threads or spoiling people's fun other than a post some weeks ago that expressed a preference for positive posts. Most of what I said merely suggested that different people have different views based on their own situation. In fact, if anything, my posts espouse the view that all opinions are legitimate but they reflect the views of the individual rather than a 'truth' that is relevant to everyone. I am happy to concede that your view is just as legitimate as mine (or just as illegitimate!) but it is difficult if a critical view is defended as telling it how it is while a positive view is dismissed as the work of 'friends' of the manufacturer. I have made it quite clear that as prices have risen I have had to adapt as many others have. The passion about things in front of you being what they are advertised to be is usually the reaction of someone who has been defrauded by a seller. You have seen through the trickery long before the purchase. You should celebrate.

On to more serious matters - you bagged my analogy of sports cars. It is 'streets' ahead of the lame 'apples and oranges' analogy you used. I don't know who used the guitar analogy but it obviously struck a chord because it has made you fret. {sm4}

Jack

Jack

 

[TomNT]

Mitch did you actually read Jacks post or are you merely wanting the last word?........you've repeatedly made your point, over and over again and over again, you started right back when K&C first introduced the 'P' range and in all fairness you haven't really stopped.......

I'm sure members get what you're saying, but have you ever heard of the saying 'more means less and less means more'??

For the sake of world peace mate.......let it go, you've made your point, move on.........please!!!!!!!!!!!

I think world peace has a better chance than this issue Toddy! {sm4}

Tom