TomNT
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The Kiwi beer might tip me over the edge mate or in this case, the canoe! {sm4}
Tom
Why are we so German Crazy (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Firebat
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The Kiwi beer might tip me over the edge mate or in this case, the canoe! {sm4}
Tom
Poppo
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You are right, and especially on the eastern front at the end of war, they only fought for their lives; the choices to the german soldier were 3:
1)Desert,trying to escape and join Germany, and surely be caught by the feldgendarmerie who was very effective till the last days of war and sentenced to death by the itinerant courts martial ; 2)surrender and immediately be shot by the russians or dying during the long death marches to the siberian camps or finally starving to death, work, sickness in those camps.3)Fighting for their own lives with a little chance to survive one more day.
This explains the fanaticism of the germans in the east fightings.
Poppo
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I agree......
The problem is that the red army reaching the german territories killed, stole, burned all the villages and raped women from 12 to 60 sistematically and with a brutality rarely seen before, sometimes to death.Raping daughters in front of their father and shooting him if he tried to oppose.Some women preferred to become one red army officier' s lover than be raped by gangs of soldiers. They fired with artillery on the columns of civilans refugees ( old people and women with babies), marching from eastern Prussia, Danzig, Breslau etc. to the west in january 45,in freezing temperatures, millions of them died. Many civilians, also childern were deported to concentration camps or obliged to hard workings. And after the war, more deportations, terror in the schools, brain washing with the stalinism, and no food at all.Any slight form of protestation and the guy disappeared.....
I think this thread is getting off topic, but I thought I should add one consequence of desertion from the nazi German military: Sippenhaft.
"Examples of Sippenhaft being used as a threat exist within the Wehrmacht from around 1943. Soldiers accused of having 'blood impurities' or soldiers conscripted from areas outside of Germany also began to have their families threatened and punished with Sippenhaft. An example is the case of Panzergrenadier Leiss, who was accused of desertion on the Eastern Front in December 1942. After the Düsseldorf Gestapo discovered supposed 'Polish' links in the Leiss family, in February 1943 his wife, child, two brothers, sister and brother-in-law were arrested and executed at Sachsenhausen concentration camp. By 1944, several general and individual directives were ordered within divisions and corps, threatening troops with consequences against their family. After 20 July 1944 these threats were extended to include all German troops and in particular, German commanders. A decree of February 1945 threatened death to the relatives of military commanders who showed what Hitler regarded as cowardice or defeatism in the face of the enemy. After surrendering Königsberg to the Soviets in April 1945, the family of the German commander General Otto Lasch were arrested. These arrests were publicized in the Völkischer Beobachter."
Quote from Wikipedia
Rob
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Thing is we could sit here all day back and forth. The things you describe above were not as bad as the attempt to erase Jewish people from the world over, the mass killing in specially created murder camps where millions were gassed, shot, tortured to death, starved to death and Children were operated on while still awake in hideous experiments. A regime that glorified in the purity of race and executed disabled children as normal practice. And also of course a tiny matter, Germany invaded Russia, laid waste to it's towns and cities, killed millions of it's people in an act of violent aggression, which kind of begs the question; 'What did they expect'??
What some folk seem to forget is that it is not us that has the right to sit upon a throne of virtue and condemn actions by the allies, because of what they did the hideous loathsome regime of Hitler and his associated human filth were forever removed . There are many many problems in the world that we live in today we all know that, but by god it would be darker still if we'd lost. And that is why you won't find me bleating over the actions of the allies in WW2, in such a war in which the very existence of freedom was at risk we needed people like Bomber Harris who stated (if memory serves me correctly ) that ' The Bones of every German citizen are not worth the bones of a single British Grenadier' . It was that attitude however non pc it may be to us now that helped win the War quicker than it otherwise would have been. Do any of you actually believe that when Hitler started bombing London, Coventry, Southampton and all the other places that were hit , the Brits were saying ' Yes bomb Germany, but don't do anymore than they've done, just do a little bit of bombing'!!:rolleyes2:
However much some don't like to hear it I'm afraid it doesn't alter the fact that Brad is perfectly right, they reaped the whirlwind alright, of course it's sad so many civilians died , but it's the price paid to remove the cancer in their midst whom they loved so much when they thought they were winning.
Rob
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"The price paid? "
So in your opinion raping, killing german "civilians", children, was fine ? Raping a child helps to win the war? Please, say the truth....When you have pleasure or feel nothing imagining civilians brutalized, this is just an insane feeling of revenge. This feeling could be felt during the war, seen the situation, but that you say this, 70 years after it,it is really morbid and disgusting to read....All atrocities against civilians must be con****ed...
Rob
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No of course it doesn't, but in the same manner you seem so much harsher on the Russians than you do on the Germans who not only did this to Russia first but initiated the whole War. Don't lecture me on what is disgusting, I again make the point that when Germany treated Russians the way they did when they invaded and destroyed their way of life and in millions of cases their very existence, what do you think the retribution would be like??? Are you going to say to Russians, yes we know how we treated you but you must not treat Germans that way! Give me strength. The blame is with the German high command nobody else, when they swept into Russia they woke a monster they could not beat, if you can't do the time don't do the crime as they say.
Rob
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PanzerAce1944
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Being that I am one of those "So German Crazy" collectors I will take a few moments to chime in here. Having a fascination for the WWII German war machine versus Nazi principles and atrocities can be divided and separated by most
WWII History buffs of the War in Europe. If Hitler had stopped with the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia he may have been regarded as one of the greatest Leaders of modern day history. Bringing Germany back from post WWI poverty and depression, In the 1930's unemployment was nearly zero. Good Idea ! Creation of the Autobahns......Good Idea ! Attacking Poland and starting WWII.....Bad Idea ! Attacking the whole rest of Europe....worse Idea !
Invading Russia...........Insanely bad idea ! Creating the Holocaust.......criminally Insane !!! Being a Retired active duty Army armor crewman for 20 years I personally do have an appreciation for the equipment, vehicles, Uniforms, and
other equipment of this war machine of that time in our not so distant History. Separating an Armies equipment from the acts of crime that it commits is where the line gets drawn.True many German soldiers were just trying to survive, fighting for the lives of themselves and their families, while SS units took pride in committing atrocities on a vast scale. Having myself one Grandfather land at Normandy D-Day +1 while the other was a German Wehrmacht motorcycle
dispatch rider , the family bloodlines are interesting to say the least ! My grandmother from my mothers side was a Czech woman on her farm and had German soldiers pound on the door and demand that she make them coffee.
Before the coffee was done Russian soldiers appeared and fighting broke out all over the property, with bodies laying about everywhere ! The Germans must have won the fire fight as some of them returned to drink the coffee !
Well, that's my take on it all. A bit of back ground and history.
WWII History buffs of the War in Europe. If Hitler had stopped with the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia he may have been regarded as one of the greatest Leaders of modern day history. Bringing Germany back from post WWI poverty and depression, In the 1930's unemployment was nearly zero. Good Idea ! Creation of the Autobahns......Good Idea ! Attacking Poland and starting WWII.....Bad Idea ! Attacking the whole rest of Europe....worse Idea !
Invading Russia...........Insanely bad idea ! Creating the Holocaust.......criminally Insane !!! Being a Retired active duty Army armor crewman for 20 years I personally do have an appreciation for the equipment, vehicles, Uniforms, and
other equipment of this war machine of that time in our not so distant History. Separating an Armies equipment from the acts of crime that it commits is where the line gets drawn.True many German soldiers were just trying to survive, fighting for the lives of themselves and their families, while SS units took pride in committing atrocities on a vast scale. Having myself one Grandfather land at Normandy D-Day +1 while the other was a German Wehrmacht motorcycle
dispatch rider , the family bloodlines are interesting to say the least ! My grandmother from my mothers side was a Czech woman on her farm and had German soldiers pound on the door and demand that she make them coffee.
Before the coffee was done Russian soldiers appeared and fighting broke out all over the property, with bodies laying about everywhere ! The Germans must have won the fire fight as some of them returned to drink the coffee !
Well, that's my take on it all. A bit of back ground and history.
Rob
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Excellent post Wayne. We all have appreciation for weapons of War, uniforms, tactics etc. But the moment we start making excuses for them or pitying the filth we all helped eradicate then it's a short hop to ' All sides were bad as each other ' total BS .:rolleyes2:
What an interesting War your family had!
Rob
Rob
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DMNamiot
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Ok Gents, I thought we were going to have to take some action for a few minutes there. The topic is interesting and lets stick to the topic of toy soldiers and try to stay away from the brutal truths that came to light when the war was over or in its closing months. This is not the place for such a discussion and even if it were it would be a very difficult one to manage. Brad made a good point about reaping the whirl wind and Andreas also made a very good point about the internal issues of what would/could occur if the soldier decided to desert. We like to look at these issues from our American or British or even Western way of seeing the world but I will remind you that most German Soldiers were fighting for their country and way of life. Not going to say if it was right or wrong so please don't go there. However that said I will say this very clearly for everyone else please keep on topic and stay away from these other issues.
Dave
Dave
uksubs
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Great idea :salute::
If you lived through WW2 . . . even in a war-free zone . . . then you cannot separate the history and emotions of the period from toy soldiers. Family and friends were all affected . . . my father was gone for nearly six years, but returned. However, he was never the warm person he was before the war. My father-in-law . . . a respected attorney who was overage and not required to go . . . did not. We lived in daily fear of events . . . you couldn't escape it. Fortunately, there was relatively little media coverage and what there was, was heavily censored. Thus, to those of us who participated, even if only in the war effort or as an onlooker, one cannot forget the brutal events. To glorify certain units or nationalities because of fancy uniforms or superior technology is unacceptable to many of us. Anyone who did not live through the period may have difficulty with this concept, but it is what it is. To say otherwise is fooling oneself. To this day I keep away from WWII or figures in combat. No one will ever convince me that all those little Nazi figures are a thing of beauty no matter how pretty the they are.
Bosun Al
Bosun Al
Not quite true. The Russians had been doing this stuff since 1917 on an enormous scale. This is why many saw the Germans as liberators, and historically, before, during and after it is the Russians who have first place in mass attrocities both in numbers and brutality. I would challenge anyone to refer to historical fact that proves otherwise.
And as regards to topic, this historical and psychological analysis is very much on topic as it is an integral element to the hobby. These can not be separated, otherwise the figures and machines are reduced to sterile representations of art. I do not believe anyone collects them purely on this basis.
Emotions running high? Let them run. My family was split on both sides. Yes, there were two sides.
Well said, though I do not entirely agree with your assumptions. At the beginning of 10 pages of posts we have heard many interesting perspectives and discussed pretty women in Jeeps,
but have we really explained the fascination with German figures and vehicles besides 1.they are pretty 2. they are colorful 3, they look better than the dull green of most allied vehicles and they sell well?
"the answer lies within" is still the question. The study of the human mind is of course complex, I have done so for the past 50+ years or so
It is perfectly OK to disagree on the origins of men's thinking in war, but in this case history speaks against many of the answers posted
I will say no more
h.hammer