WW2: Most pivotal battle in the Pacific/CBI (1 Viewer)

[Currahee Chris]

Alright fellas- what are your thoughts on the most pivotal WW2 battle in the pacific and/or CBI (China-Burma-India) and why??

I still contend Midway was the beginning of the end for the Imperial Japanese Navy and her naval superiority. Anyone think something else like perhaps Iwo or Guadalcanal??

Sound off!! {sm0}

 

[theBaron]

Midway was significant as the first major defeat inflicted on the Imperial Japanese Navy, ever, if you think about it, going back to its baptism of fire in the Russo-Japanese War. Coral Sea was a strategic defeat, of course, but the IJN's strength wasn't much impacted. But the real defeat came with the Solomons campaign. It was in the Solomons' meat grinder that the Japanese suffered the losses in trained aircrew that they simply could not make up, and began to lose ships at an increasing pace, that they could also not replace fast enough.

"Shattered Sword" is an excellent analysis of the Battle of Midway, focusing on the Japanese side, and the authors examine the battle's traditional status in Western history-writing as a miraculous victory and turning point, and come to the conclusion I describe above. It does reflect a turning point, but the sloping road to defeat starts with the Solomons. From that point, the Japanese were never going to win.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Mitch]

For me the Battle of the Phillippine sea was the most decisive battle. Everyone has this image that after Midway the IJN was finished but, thats not really the case. It was effectively the case after this battle and ended any option of the japanese fighting at sea.
Mitch

 

[Louis Badolato]

Midway and the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot - the losses in irreplaceable experienced aircrew doomed the Japanese Empire.

 

[lancer]

Midway was significant as the first major defeat inflicted on the Imperial Japanese Navy, ever, if you think about it, going back to its baptism of fire in the Russo-Japanese War. Coral Sea was a strategic defeat, of course, but the IJN's strength wasn't much impacted. But the real defeat came with the Solomons campaign. It was in the Solomons' meat grinder that the Japanese suffered the losses in trained aircrew that they simply could not make up, and began to lose ships at an increasing pace, that they could also not replace fast enough.

"Shattered Sword" is an excellent analysis of the Battle of Midway, focusing on the Japanese side, and the authors examine the battle's traditional status in Western history-writing as a miraculous victory and turning point, and come to the conclusion I describe above. It does reflect a turning point, but the sloping road to defeat starts with the Solomons. From that point, the Japanese were never going to win.

Prost!
Brad

I agree with this and I think it insightful. Midway might be the popular choice as it was an obviously decisive victory, and it is something I agreed with until recently. The more I read about Guadalcanal and the Solomon Island campaign, the more I have come to believe that it was the true turning point. Brad's reference to the campaign as a 'meat-grinder' is an apt one. Nothing the Japanese did could turn the tide in their favor, and they tried really hard. The Japanese threw the best they had, army, navy, and air in an attempt to reverse the outcome. It was their first defeat in terms of combined arms and one that they couldn't recover from. Too much was sacrificed, too much lost, and many of the upper Japanese high command knew it even if it couldn't be conceded. -- Al

 

[Terp152]

Interesting points of view. I don't think Guadacanal and Midway can be viewed separately. Had the US lost at Midway, or at least not had a decisive victory, would they have been able to fight as successful a battle of attrition at the 'canal? Doubtful, if the Japenese had maintained a viable carrier force with attendant pilots and aircrew. Coral Sea and Midway enabled air superiority at Guadacanal. Of course the inevitable end was coming with the addition of the Essex class carriers to the OOB. Chris

 

[waynepoo]

The Japanese were doomed from the moment the first bomb was dropped at Pearl Harbour but only a hand full of people realized it at the time, Churchill and F.D.R almost certianly did.
I would say it was a pivotal battle of WW2 not only just of the Pacific war.
Wayne.

 

[lancer]

Interesting points of view. I don't think Guadacanal and Midway can be viewed separately. Had the US lost at Midway, or at least not had a decisive victory, would they have been able to fight as successful a battle of attrition at the 'canal? Doubtful, if the Japenese had maintained a viable carrier force with attendant pilots and aircrew. Coral Sea and Midway enabled air superiority at Guadacanal. Of course the inevitable end was coming with the addition of the Essex class carriers to the OOB. Chris

Midway did indeed make the Solomon's campaign possible within the time frame that it occurred. The Japanese Navy survived Midway, though the carrier strike force was seriously weakened, but it was the Solomons that proved the graveyard of their expansion hopes and truely forced them over to the defense of a widely scattered empire. Had the Japanese won at Midway, any kind of Allied counter-offensive would have been delayed but was inevitable in any case. It was at Guadalcanal that the Japanese Army was first defeated and the expenditure of ships, planes, and manpower in the effort to defeat the US forces crippled them all over the Pacific in terms of further supply and support. It is hard to overstate what the fight to retain Guadalcanal cost the Japanese in strategic terms. -- Al

 

[glossman]

Another very interesting thread "Most pivotal battle in the Pacific/CBI" by CC. It prompted me to review a previous thread "Ten most decisive battles in world history" also by CC.

The key word here is "pivotal" which I take to mean not only decisive, but a turning point in a larger conflict/war. The scope has been narrowed down to the Asia/Pacific theatre of operations of WWII, so it does help focus the discussion.

For the naval war in the Pacific :

Battle of Midway (June 1942) : the most pivotal battle

Battle of the Philippine Sea (June 1944) and Battle of Leyte Gulf (October 1944) : the most decisive battles

The destruction of the Imperial Japanese Navy was vital to the eventual defeat of Japan. Central to this objective was top priority for the sinking Japanese aircraft carriers that started at Midway and was achieved in the Phillippine Sea.

Raymond.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

To me Pearl Harbor was the pivotal start of the demise of the Axis powers and the start of the destruction of the Japanese Empire. America and its might was unleashed on 7 Dec. 1941. I choose pearl harbor as it brought America into The war.

 

[glossman]

For CBI (China-Burma-India), I think the Battle of Kohima (April to June 1944) ranks as the most decisive victory for British and Commonwealth forces over the Imperial Japanese Army in South Asia. This battle is closely associated with the Battle of Imphal, both towns being in North-East India close to the Indian-Burma border.

The British victory over Japanese forces at the Battle of Kohima was pivotal in turning the tide in favour of the Allies in the Burma Campaign and the land war in South Asia.

Here are two links that may be of interest:

(1) The Burma Campaign (1941 - 1945) from the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/burma_campaign_01.shtml

(2) The Battle of Kohima (1944) from the MOD, UK

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/4C2B25FC-2E6C-45F9-B785-8A75139E9A0A/0/ww2_kohima.pdf

Raymond

 

[theBaron]

To me Pearl Harbor was the pivotal start of the demise of the Axis powers and the start of the destruction of the Japanese Empire. America and its might was unleashed on 7 Dec. 1941. I choose pearl harbor as it brought America into The war.

That's a very good point, but to expand on it, we need to consider that Hitler declared war on the US in the immediate aftermath, which was a big mistake. You can make a case, based on political conditions at the time, that we might not have declared war on Germany and only would have conducted the war against Japan. That was Chruchill's fear. If fact, if Hitler hadn't already been falling under the megalomania that led to his downfall, he might have shown his earlier shrewdness and his ability to size up his opponents and situations, and he might have offered to remain neutral or even negotiate between his Axis partner and the US. That would have made it very difficult for Congress to agree to declare war on Germany.

Prost!
Brad

 

[PanzerAce1944]

That's a very good point, but to expand on it, we need to consider that Hitler declared war on the US in the immediate aftermath, which was a big mistake. You can make a case, based on political conditions at the time, that we might not have declared war on Germany and only would have conducted the war against Japan. That was Chruchill's fear. If fact, if Hitler hadn't already been falling under the megalomania that led to his downfall, he might have shown his earlier shrewdness and his ability to size up his opponents and situations, and he might have offered to remain neutral or even negotiate between his Axis partner and the US. That would have made it very difficult for Congress to agree to declare war on Germany.

Prost!
Brad

Interesting if Hitler did not declare war on America what our next actions would have been regarding the war
In Europe. I would think since we were already going to fight Japan it would have been only a short time
Before dealing with Germany anyway,but possibly delayed by who knows how many months.
Old hitler did us a big favor by making our minds up for us. !!!

 

[lancer]

Interesting if Hitler did not declare war on America what our next actions would have been regarding the war
In Europe. I would think since we were already going to fight Japan it would have been only a short time
Before dealing with Germany anyway,but possibly delayed by who knows how many months.
Old hitler did us a big favor by making our minds up for us. !!!

Hitler's declaration of war was a HUGE miscalculation. At the time of Pearl Harbor, the vast majority of the US populance wanted nothing to do with the war in Europe. Once Japan attacked, the US populance was focused on the Pacific and Europe was pushed even further down the priority list. It could not have been otherwise. Without Hitler declaring war, US efforts would have stayed in the Pacific for quite some time to come. The Allies in Europe might have gotten even less aid than before Pearl Harbor. Politically there would have been little choice for FDR. Japan would have come first and Europe would have had to wait. -- Al

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Hitler's declaration of war was a HUGE miscalculation. At the time of Pearl Harbor, the vast majority of the US populance wanted nothing to do with the war in Europe. Once Japan attacked, the US populance was focused on the Pacific and Europe was pushed even further down the priority list. It could not have been otherwise. Without Hitler declaring war, US efforts would have stayed in the Pacific for quite some time to come. The Allies in Europe might have gotten even less aid than before Pearl Harbor. Politically there would have been little choice for FDR. Japan would have come first and Europe would have had to wait. -- Al

Hitler declaring war on the U.S. has to be among his top 3 blunders of WWII. {sm2}

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi All,

Thanks to Chris for asking an interesting question. My take on this is that the Solomons were the pivital or most decisive battle in the Pacific. Until this point in the Pacific the Japanese Army had not met a force in the field that they didnt take to pieces. This goes back well into the 1930s with all their campaigns in China. Here is a summary of what the Japanese accomplished in the first six months of the war, captured the Philippines, Singapore, the Dutch East Indies, Wake Island, and Guam to name a few. While the two sea/air battles of The Coral Sea and Midway did thwart the continued strategic initiative of the Japanese. The Coral Sea was a draw leaving only Midway as a clear strategic victory. Guadalcanal was the first major land offensive by Allied forces against the Empire of Japan. This landing initiated a series of combined-arms battles, in the central and northern Solomons, on and around New Georgia Island, and Bougainville Island that totally took the Japanese to task and wore them down in a campaign of attrition. This campaign fought on land, on sea, and in the air, inflicted irreplaceable losses on Japanese military assets. The Solomon Islands campaign then merged with the New Guinea campaign. Success in the Solomon Islands campaign prevented the Japanese from cutting Australia and New Zealand off from the U.S., isolated and neutralized Rabaul and destroyed much of Japan's sea and air supremacy. Eventually this opened the way for Allied forces to recapture the Philippines and cut off Japan from its crucial resource areas in the Netherlands East Indies.

Dave

 

[Mitch]

considering how little really the axis pact did for each other especially between japan and germany its surprising that Hitler declared war on the US as fast as he did. Tensions were running high due to the fact that germany had wanted the japanese to play along with the idea that they would or, were likely to invade russia which, kept all the troops at those borders that eventually stopped the drive and capture of Moscow. The germans were not happy that the japanese decided to let slip to the russians they had no intentions of invasion.

Imagine Hitler decalring war on Japan for its act of aggression against the US??? Now, that would have caused even a bigger problem in the US. As has been mentioned the US was far from interested politically or, by the wishes of its population in general to fight with troops on the ground in Europe. How much harder would it have been to have done so with germany even in terms of lip service as a friend??

For the germans I see no bigger error in WWII apart from not continuing the war against britain or, keeping production at full peak early on. another of those what if's
Mitch

QUOTE=lancer;528216]Hitler's declaration of war was a HUGE miscalculation. At the time of Pearl Harbor, the vast majority of the US populance wanted nothing to do with the war in Europe. Once Japan attacked, the US populance was focused on the Pacific and Europe was pushed even further down the priority list. It could not have been otherwise. Without Hitler declaring war, US efforts would have stayed in the Pacific for quite some time to come. The Allies in Europe might have gotten even less aid than before Pearl Harbor. Politically there would have been little choice for FDR. Japan would have come first and Europe would have had to wait. -- Al[/QUOTE]

 

[OzDigger]

The Solomon/Guadalcanal campaign also gets my vote, here's an interesting tidbit of infohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Canberra_(CA-70):

 

[TomNT]

Yes, i agree, this is a very interesting thread. I think the pivotal battle was Pearl Harbour because it brought the U.S. into the war. It would have been interesting if Hitler was aware of the Japanese plan to attack Pearl Harbour and was then able to convince the Japanese that by attacking the U.S. or any of its possessions such as the Philippines was a mistake for both of their countries. If the Japanese only attacked British, Dutch, French and other European possessions in Asia, would the U.S. still have entered the war?

Tom

 

[Mitch]

Tom...

I think any aggressive acts towards these and other parts of the pacific would have meant the US having a war with Japan. There was too much at stake in that area as a whole for the US to stand by and let the japanese take over. War with japan and the US was inevitable no matter how hard some at that time thought otherwise.
Mitch

QUOTE=TomNT;528296]Yes, i agree, this is a very interesting thread. I think the pivotal battle was Pearl Harbour because it brought the U.S. into the war. It would have been interesting if Hitler was aware of the Japanese plan to attack Pearl Harbour and was then able to convince the Japanese that by attacking the U.S. or any of its possessions such as the Philippines was a mistake for both of their countries. If the Japanese only attacked British, Dutch, French and other European possessions in Asia, would the U.S. still have entered the war?

Tom[/QUOTE]