Retired Figures - What happens to them? (1 Viewer)

[Capitolron]

Brett - it is sad to hear that you take advantage of your dealer discount in this way.

It is my understanding that Andy is currently away from Hong Kong and will not be back until about 23 JULY.

In relation to selling of retired items this has been covered before but as a dealer I operate in the following way.

When the retirements are announced I will place an order for them using my judgement on their popularity and whether I know any collectors who might need a particular item. I inform my customers as soon as I can about the retirements and the sale of those items will be on first come first served basis. Sometimes I may have stock left over and this remains on the shelves to be sold at normal price.

I do sometimes deliberately put aside an item for future resale via Ebay and obviously hope to get a good price. If you look at my Ebay sales we are not talking a lot of items. I may then list a few together on Ebay. Those sales fund something in the business such as signage etc. We are not talking multiples of anything put aside and when this has happened it has been due to over ordering by me (and underordering by my customers !!!).

Sometimes a regular happens to mention he is looking for something and I realise I have one put aside and will then sell it to him at pretty much normal price. However if a stranger calls or emails looking for that item then my reply is no. I would rather it go to a regular or a new shop customer.

MY understanding is that K&C's policy is that dealers do not sell cheaper than the K&C RRP. There is no guide about selling higher than RRP and I doubt there would be.

I do not come across collections much but last year did buy a few items from a collector who was re-arranging his study. He had sold a few items before I got there (incl. Wittman Tiger for about US$90 ) but I bought all his remaining items (incl a few Britains items). One was an unboxed Galland ME109 which I paid about US$68 for (although as I said I bought multiple items as a group). Much to my amazement I sold it on Ebay for 10 x that a few weeks later.

Regards
Brett

Regards
Brett

 

[Tony Neville]

Lets not forget the COLLECTORS who call saying they are desperate to find model 'xyz' and be sold it at normal RRP and then see it on ebay just a few days later!! i am sure we have all witnessed this.

Like Brett we look out for regulars and genuine cases, now!!!

 

[Mitch]

I think the silence from King and country speaks volumes and, although I understand what people are saying you will always get some sets which are more expensive than others and people who are willing to pay what is asked for them or, not willing to pay.

I think Bretts honesty is to be commended and its for me, expected as old sets are rare and valuable and, as we are collecting quality military miniatures we have to expect that some will command top dollar prices. I think we have forgotten that we are not in the toy soldiers arena per se its, for me, full on collectables.

If we are honest about it and lets say you have WSS 15 or 25 which I am fortunate to have got and say you wanted rid of them would you sell them for their RRP or close to it or, would you sell it for the £1500 offered??? Everyone on here I am sure would go for the latter.

Its also now, with more awareness about value etc and K&C harder to say what will be rare or even popular some sets sell less than SL's so, are they more rare well yes, in terms of numbers and, you have to remember that not every dealer is huge outlets capable of buying lots of sets and, then hanging onto them in the hope they will get rare.

I do commend Brett for his honesty and bet their are a few more who do such things and would not post it.

Where do we go next? Slate K&C UK for their former Auctions or, their current classic discontinued range? Without being contentious or argumentative when everyone realises that this is a business and, people are in it primarily to make money and a living and, that our collectables are not really toys they are grown up collectables the better and, we can move from the concerns about secondary markets and price issues. IMO
Mitch

 

[jazzeum]

I think the silence from King and country speaks volumes

As noted in Brett's post, Andy is away from Hong Kong until July 23 so nothing should be inferred from their not having commented.

 

[Mitch]

What I meant by that comment was that I do not think that Andy has any position or, right to tell people how they sell the products after all, there are procedures to be followed and adhered to to become a dealer and, I know one of them is not to sell the products for less than the prices set by the parent comapany

How can you then put in a caveat that you must always sell at RRP even if discoed and rare or, that you should not hold onto items for months or years hoping they become valuable? Thats a shrewd business practice if, you can do it but, as I said in my last post its harder and harder to do now, but, some seem to be asking for retrospective rules from Andy. Its an unworkable system and, a can of worms which, IMO will devalue the hobby.

The contract is I buy of you at X and can sell it on for Y but, once you pay for the products King and country legally hold no say in what you do with them or, how much you sell them for.

They can only sell for the prices they do because people are willing to buy that at that price. Its the way of the world and, IMO there are enough regulation on this or that without opening this can of worms.
Mitch

zzeum;306934]As noted in Brett's post, Andy is away from Hong Kong until July 23 so nothing should be inferred from their not having commented.[/QUOTE]

 

[Combat]

I tend to agree that KC should stay out of the dealer/customer transaction whether it's selling above or below retail. That applies to items that are not popular, not being sold and collecting dust. The dealer should be able to offer those below retail to get rid of them, but my understanding is that KC prohibits that practice. Andy seems to believe this protects dealers from price wars, but that only occurs if there is not sufficient customer interest in an item to buy it at the retail price.

 

[Rutledge]

From a general business perspective, the most important things for a manufacturer such as K&C are to:
- Maintain their brand image
- Have a well functioning but still competitive dealer network

Surely legal agreements are signed when K&C takes on a dealer. Violations of the arrangements could result in lawsuits and/or the ending of the relationship. K&C may monitor ebay for dealers "dumping" or engaging in other brand image-damaging or dealer network harming practices.

I see no reason why selling above suggested retail wouldnt be premitted. SUch would enhance, not hurt, the Brand Image. And other dealers could easily undercut. As long as there is not broad dealer collusion, K&C probably lets dealers manage their inventories as they please.

Dealers that "horde" run risks of market degredation and inventory destruction. There are also carrying costs to consider, as well as customer loyalty (customers may not patronize again if they feel they are being ripped off)

Those who horde, whether dealer or speculator, run the risk their gamble will not pay off, for any number of reasons. K&C introduces new products frequently. The excitement around these new relases likely induces higher sales rather than later on when there are newer releases, from both K&C and their competitors. Over time product quality improvements may make older units not as attractive.

 

[Mitch]

The older sets are always going to be desirable to collectors and, as such command a premium. I bet there are not many dealers who from 1984 thought I should keep these as one day they will be worth loads.

The whole crux is about some of the more sought after items going for a high price and posters hoping that Andy may say how wrong this practice is.

IMO it just is not going to happen and, the utopia of a level playing field for collectors is never going to happen as, there will always be those who have more money than others and will be able to buy the sets at the prices others cannot. Its happened to all of us at one time or another and will again. I mean I would like a bugati veron but, I know however hard I work I will not get one but, I do not complain to VW that they should market the vehicle at the price of a Range Rover.

Its just a fact of life
Mitch

From a general business perspective, the most important things for a manufacturer such as K&C are to:
- Maintain their brand image
- Have a well functioning but still competitive dealer network

Surely legal agreements are signed when K&C takes on a dealer. Violations of the arrangements could result in lawsuits and/or the ending of the relationship. K&C may monitor ebay for dealers "dumping" or engaging in other brand image-damaging or dealer network harming practices.

I see no reason why selling above suggested retail wouldnt be premitted. SUch would enhance, not hurt, the Brand Image. And other dealers could easily undercut. As long as there is not broad dealer collusion, K&C probably lets dealers manage their inventories as they please.

Dealers that "horde" run risks of market degredation and inventory destruction. There are also carrying costs to consider, as well as customer loyalty (customers may not patronize again if they feel they are being ripped off)

Those who horde, whether dealer or speculator, run the risk their gamble will not pay off, for any number of reasons. K&C introduces new products frequently. The excitement around these new relases likely induces higher sales rather than later on when there are newer releases, from both K&C and their competitors. Over time product quality improvements may make older units not as attractive.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Ron,

You wrote :

"Brett - it is sad to hear that you take advantage of your dealer discount in this way."

If I thought I was taking advantage of anybody I would have not made my post. In fact I have made a simular post previously on this forum. I think you may be misunderstanding the quantity although I guess you take exception to any such "advantage".

One thing I would like to point out is that I match US$ RRP prices here in Australia and any Australian forum member who has dealt with me knows that my A$ prices can change with the US$ exchange rate on a day to day basis (see my web home page). However I also have a 10% sales tax to pay which comes out of my profit margin. I believe many US dealers don't have such tax.

As I indicated usually such Ebay sales are to fund some improvement in the shop. If you care to look at my Ebay sales you will see I am not talking about a lot of items being sold (none this year although I have sold some retired items for collectors with all proceeds going towards them buying new items). I have a number of retired items on my shop shelves (none I would say is particularly valuable so do not get excited).

For example I recently put on display my personal Napoleon Ltd Ed set and a good regular noticed it and wanted to buy it. I did have an extra set put aside and let him have it at normal price. He was very happy to get it and I was happy to sell it to him as he is a good customer. However as I said if a total stranger called looking for it he would not have got it.

I can assure you that if I have multiples of any retired item it is not by choice !

I think there is sometimes a perception amongst collectors that dealers are making a lot of money. I joke with some of my customers that when they see The Military Workshoip Mercedes van with all the signage then they will know I am making good money. I can't speak for others but I know what I take out of my business as a wage and if it was not for a good pension from my previous job I would be struggling to make ends meet. If I calculated the total hours I put in I would be on a poor hourly rate compared to many. If I take a holiday and close the shop for a few weeks I lose turnover so the real cost for me to take a break is considerable. I suppose I could always raise my prices but then my customers might think I am taking "advantage" of them !

So Ron hopefully that puts my post into perspective. I think you may be mixing me up with the practices of some other dealers.

Regards
Brett

 

[Northgate Woods]

Guys,
Brett Williams is the finest and fairest dealer in the World. He is also a top bloke and a good mate. He matches USD prices subject to Aussie dollar movement, wears the freight costs from HK, the 10% Aussie GST tax and if your order is over AUD$100 he wears the postage costs. Now how is that not fair or an abuse of the Dealer Discount. If he makes the occasionly quid on some old retired items, I say Good Luck to him.
He has been totally honest in his posting here and as he said there has not been a rush of other dealers apart from Tony to explain their dealings.
Keep up the great work, cobber.
Cheers Howard

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

I have to say this one Pommy is ok. Brett has helped me out on many occasions far beyond what a shop dealer should. He has and offered me on this forum retired items that I have been chasing down at original prices. Believe me if you saw his van you would no he is a Aussie battler. In this country you keep your friends close and your enemies closer . Hi Ron. Simmo.

 

[wayne556517]

No way he is so "DODGY" i wouldn't deal with him ever................ Joking of course Brett is my "DEALER" so when i need a hit he has the gear for me great bloke cant help enough,and Brett if you want holidays i will come over and relieve you,no charge just have lots of beers in the fridge and some nice frozen meals......................

 

[The Military Workshop]

Thanks guys, the specially commissioned polystone RAAF Dambuster Lancaster with full crew will be delivered to you next week !!!!

Howard,
Not so sure about your first sentence but appreciate the compliment.
Simmo,
Unfortunately the van got towed away as beyond repair and I think it may now be part of a Hyundai !
Wayne,
Thanks for kind offer but let me install the hidden cameras first !!!

Actually the resale of retired items issue is very interesting. Simmo made reference to a recent offer by me to him of a DD51 Churchill (my asking price was A$135 which is a A$ price I recall for the item). Original price was US$89 but much depends upon A$ exchange rate. Ron may be interested to recall he sold two DD51's (5 days apart) in June 2009 for US$199 each. Even assuming he paid normal retail price his margin and $ profit seems to be better than mine.

Regards
Brett

 

[Vezzolf]

Ron,

You wrote :

"Brett - it is sad to hear that you take advantage of your dealer discount in this way."

If I thought I was taking advantage of anybody I would have not made my post. In fact I have made a simular post previously on this forum. I think you may be misunderstanding the quantity although I guess you take exception to any such "advantage".

One thing I would like to point out is that I match US$ RRP prices here in Australia and any Australian forum member who has dealt with me knows that my A$ prices can change with the US$ exchange rate on a day to day basis (see my web home page). However I also have a 10% sales tax to pay which comes out of my profit margin. I believe many US dealers don't have such tax.

As I indicated usually such Ebay sales are to fund some improvement in the shop. If you care to look at my Ebay sales you will see I am not talking about a lot of items being sold (none this year although I have sold some retired items for collectors with all proceeds going towards them buying new items). I have a number of retired items on my shop shelves (none I would say is particularly valuable so do not get excited).

For example I recently put on display my personal Napoleon Ltd Ed set and a good regular noticed it and wanted to buy it. I did have an extra set put aside and let him have it at normal price. He was very happy to get it and I was happy to sell it to him as he is a good customer. However as I said if a total stranger called looking for it he would not have got it.

I can assure you that if I have multiples of any retired item it is not by choice !

I think there is sometimes a perception amongst collectors that dealers are making a lot of money. I joke with some of my customers that when they see The Military Workshoip Mercedes van with all the signage then they will know I am making good money. I can't speak for others but I know what I take out of my business as a wage and if it was not for a good pension from my previous job I would be struggling to make ends meet. If I calculated the total hours I put in I would be on a poor hourly rate compared to many. If I take a holiday and close the shop for a few weeks I lose turnover so the real cost for me to take a break is considerable. I suppose I could always raise my prices but then my customers might think I am taking "advantage" of them !

So Ron hopefully that puts my post into perspective. I think you may be mixing me up with the practices of some other dealers.

Regards
Brett

Brett, Based on the honesty of your posts and the positive feedback of forum members....... I'm sure you are a reputable dealer....Sadly however there are clearly some who abuse their position as authorized K/C dealers....(See some of the ridiculous prices of a K/C dealer on e-bay).......This form of price gouging is a practice which "I hope" that K/C does not condone......It would be good to know if K/C is even at all interested in the "retired products" scam, And if they have a policy with dealers in regards to this....It seems that K/C has no problem setting "price limits for dealers" on selling below manufacturers suggested retail price....... but no safe guard for customers/consumers against inflated pricing.....seems a bit one sided to me...Very hard to enforce??..... Is it hard to enforce on the low end??.....I guess buyers/consumers will just have to have the common sense to refuse to purchase over-priced "retired" items wether from dealers or "collectors"......Buyer beware

 

[The Military Workshop]

Vezzolf,

I think you summed it up fairly well when you wrote :

"I guess buyers/consumers will just have to have the common sense to refuse to purchase over-priced "retired" items wether from dealers or "collectors"......Buyer beware".

If a dealer is constantly selling in the manner you indicate then I would expect it would not be doing his reputation much good.

However for somebody who seems to be so obviously not a K&C fan you sure do seem to be overly concerned about K&C matters and your demands for Andy to reply to your constant questions. I wonder what the reaction would be on other parts of this forum if a K&C "fan" went over and posted a stream of similar questions based on your posts over here ?

Regards
Brett

 

[HAWKEYE]

well said brett, hey maybe we can see vezzolf in andy's room in chicago this year or possibly the dinner that treefrog helps put on

 

[HAWKEYE]

it would be great to meet all you characters and have a beer

 

[Vezzolf]

it would be great to meet all you characters and have a beer

Sounds Great to me

 

[Vezzolf]

Vezzolf,

I think you summed it up fairly well when you wrote :

"I guess buyers/consumers will just have to have the common sense to refuse to purchase over-priced "retired" items wether from dealers or "collectors"......Buyer beware".

If a dealer is constantly selling in the manner you indicate then I would expect it would not be doing his reputation much good.

However for somebody who seems to be so obviously not a K&C fan you sure do seem to be overly concerned about K&C matters and your demands for Andy to reply to your constant questions. I wonder what the reaction would be on other parts of this forum if a K&C "fan" went over and posted a stream of similar questions based on your posts over here ?

Regards
Brett

I am a K/C fan....I have purchased many K/C products over the years....Most of my collection is K/C....My questions are reasonable and make sense.......maybe you should not be so concerned about which part of the forum I'm on....Last I heard the forum is not segregated....it is an open forum...Regards Frank

 

[Rutledge]

I am a K/C fan....I have purchased many K/C products over the years....Most of my collection is K/C....My questions are reasonable and make sense.......maybe you should not be so concerned about which part of the forum I'm on....Last I heard the forum is not segregated....it is an open forum...Regards Frank

The issue, I think, is comments such as this:

WWII Stalingrad....VERY SATISFIED....with the products being produced ; and excellent service....No offense to anyone but to me First Legion has the best product out there for WWII...Their new lines especially "The American Revolution Minuteman Series" is something I definitely want to get into as soon as I can allocate resources....hopefully next month.....I would not hestiate to highly recommend First Legion.

If you think Andy doesnt read comments such as these, even when in other parts of the forum, and/or doesnt, in fact, take offense and/or would strongly repudiates such comments, especially as K&C is by far the dominate player in the WWII range, then I think you are kidding yourself.