“Colours…A matter of opinion…a statement of fact.” (1 Viewer)

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

Recently there has been a number of interesting posts on the subject of our newest Panther – the Ausf G. and its colour scheme…

One particular “poster” opined that K&C were being “just plain lazy” and that the scheme chosen, especially the shade of green used was wrong! Obviously I beg to differ…A major attraction for me, and many others, is the amazing variety of camouflage patterns and colour schemes used by the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS in the latter half of WW2. The two-colour scheme we used shows a battle-weary, rust and rain-stained vehicle that has already seen some action. And yes, we were attracted to it because we have successfully utilized a similar paint scheme and tones on a couple of other German vehicles of that same period.

Now, when it comes to favorite camo/paint schemes we all have our personal favorites and preferences. In this case I stand behind our choice and firmly believe it’s not me who got it wrong but Mr. “Hunter Rose”. There were over 6,700 Panthers made during the war…is he actually suggesting he knows how each and every individual one was painted?

Some guys like to throw around insults with great ease and abandon – especially when they don’t have to add their real name and address to an email or post. So, when it comes to accusations of “laziness” – I take a wee bit of an exception – None of us are perfect as I’m the first to admit but whatever faults lie in my character “laziness” is not one of them!

On another part of his post “Hunter Rose” regrets that we did not add “schurzen” to the model. Well, over the years, we have produced plenty of Panthers complete with “skirts”. This time we left ‘em off…After all there’s plenty of photo evidence showing Panthers minus their “schurzen”…especially in the latter days of WW2.

On another point…”Hunter Rose” states that “Model Kits are notorious for having box art with inaccurate colours”…Really? I would humbly suggest that most model companies, Dragon included, spend a fair amount of time and money getting it a lot more right than wrong! After all their livelihoods depend on it…What makes “H.R.” the great expert on accuracy of anything…His opinions are…just that…opinions – not statement of fact!

​

Best wishes to one and all,

Andy C.​

 

[Phantom Warrior]

It's usually more difficult to prove something did not exist than to prove it did exist by finding an example that it did exist. The rear steel wheels on the Panther are a documented fact and there are likely some photos around to back it up. That the late war paint schemes were all messed up is also a documented fact, but unlike a steel wheel which is clear to see, it's impossible to know what the exact colour shades were on late war AFVs. It's similar to arguing about the height of a soldier at 1:30 scale. Besides, there are plenty of clear cut "errors" that Andy has made - really no need to argue the unknowable and unprovable. :smile2:^&grin

Terry

 

[mr colt 45]

Andy: Please don't feel bad or let someone get You upset. This is a fun hobby and nothing more. If no one likes Your art work they can always repaint themselfs. Remember You can please some people some of the time not all the people all the time. Good luck and thanks for a great product line: "Mr Colt 45" :salute::

 

[Hunter Rose]

Andy,

Since this thread was directly at me allow me to respond.

First off, I'll respectfully apologize for the lazy remarks. Those can be construed as personal attacks and it would have been more polite and constructive for me to limit my criticism solely to the product presented. I'll strive to do that in this post and in the future.

Also to clear up a few things, I have no problem with the use of steel road wheels or a two-tone camo paint job. My sole complaint is with the shade of green used to portray Olivgrun, and I think it ruins the model.

That being said, your above post is really nothing more than fallacious arguments meant to undercut my validity while not really addressing the green color issue. Most people refrain from posting their real name and address on Internet forums to protect personal information, so not sure why that is an issue? I never made any sort of claim to know how every German Panther was painted nor did I express my desire for schurzen as anything other than a personal preference so I don't see how those assertions are relavent. Lastly, your argument that model companies like Dragon, Tamiya, etc. have accurate box art because it is their business is a classic "Appeal to Authority" logical fallacy. One need look no further than model companies depictions of Dunkelgelb that range in color from bright yellow to orange to see that they are hardly the definitive authority on German camo colors.

Finally, you asked what makes me a "great expert on accuracy of anything". Simply put, it's nothing more than looking at primary source material, e.g. color pictures of WW2 camo colors on actual German AFVs and equipment and comparing them to the models. Fmethorst has a previous excellent post with pictures on this subject. Based on that, the green you used on the Jagdpanther, Panzer IV, SdKfz 234, etc. are all good representations of this color. The green on this Panther and the Jagdtiger is not. When the Jagdtiger came out, these same complaints on the green color were made.

Instead of continuing to use a shade of green that "could" have been used, why not just use one that definitely was used?

Cheers.

 

[Panzer ace]

I am just curious. What is the point of saying you dislike (because of possible inaccuracy etc.) the color of something? Is it to get the manufacturer to change it? Is it to explain why you are not going to buy the piece in question? Is it to try and convince others not to buy it? Or some other reason?

 

[Hunter Rose]

I am just curious. What is the point of saying you dislike (because of possible inaccuracy etc.) the color of something? Is it to get the manufacturer to change it? Is it to explain why you are not going to buy the piece in question? Is it to try and convince others not to buy it? Or some other reason?

To get manufacturers to build better more historically accurate models that I want to purchase. To offer customer feedback to the manufacturer on why I didn't buy a specific product and how they can earn my business in the future. Then the manufacturer takes all the differing customer inputs and decides what to make based on what they think is best for their business.

Just voicing my opinion. Others are free to voice theirs if they disagree with me.

 

[Panzer ace]

To get manufacturers to build better more historically accurate models that I want to purchase. To offer customer feedback to the manufacturer on why I didn't buy a specific product and how they can earn my business in the future. Then the manufacturer takes all the differing customer inputs and decides what to make based on what they think is best for their business.

Just voicing my opinion. Others are free to voice theirs if they disagree with me.

Any reason why that type of feedback/suggestion can't be done in a PM?

 

[Go for Broke]

Any TS manufacturer should bless their luck stars they have the Treefrog Forum to get the insight of the collector. Too bad this wasn't an American tank, Gary Binder would settle this for us.{sm4}

 

[Hunter Rose]

Any reason why that type of feedback/suggestion can't be done in a PM?

I was under the impression that the point of these forums was to discuss these models and figures. The good and the bad. Seems silly and artificial to only be allowed to post public comments if they're positive but have to send criticism via private messages.

 

[Panzer ace]

I was under the impression that the point of these forums was to discuss these models and figures. The good and the bad. Seems silly and artificial to only be allowed to post public comments if they're positive but have to send criticism via private messages.

I too was under the impression that this forum was to discuss toy soldiers. I suggest a PM would be better because it seems that you are not really discussing anything, you are trying to get King & Country to make what you want. Hence the term Personal Message.

 

[Desertkiwi]

HR Quote 'Then the manufacturer takes all the differing customer inputs and decides what to make based on what they think is best for their business'.

Constructive feedback is good and is what the forum is all about, but just referring to your previous statement, how do you know that K&C hadn't already surveyed customers, conducted the necessary research and then produced what they thought was best for their business based on those results?

 

[uksubs]

I too was under the impression that this forum was to discuss toy soldiers. I suggest a PM would be better because it seems that you are not really discussing anything, you are trying to get King & Country to make what you want. Hence the term Personal Message.

What the point of the forum if you can't discuss there latest product ? For me these forum are the only way of seeing the item with no toy soldier shop near buy and welcome member opinion and sure most toy soldier company do as well

 

[SITHTABBY]

Andy,

Allow me to throw out the disclaimer that I'm an avid collector of early war grey, Afrikas Korps, Berlin '38, and the Bulge lines, but the new Panther looks so awesome I'm going to have to get it...I don't even collect the late war stuff but this Panther looks so good I have no choice but to get it.......I'm not sure what anyone is complaining about because last time I checked you're not forcing us to buy anything we don't like.

Thanks again for all the amazing stuff you've made.

 

[uksubs]

Andy,

Allow me to throw out the disclaimer that I'm an avid collector of early war grey, Afrikas Korps, Berlin '38, and the Bulge lines, but the new Panther looks so awesome I'm going to have to get it...I don't even collect the late war stuff but this Panther looks so good I have no choice but to get it.......I'm not sure what anyone is complaining about because last time I checked you're not forcing us to buy anything we don't like.

Thanks again for all the amazing stuff you've made.

Got to love these new member :rolleyes2::salute::yep I'm buying one as well great looking tank !

 

[makava]

New panther is great ,but we need more colour plan！

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I just finished researching my WWII Tank encyclopedia in color and found several Panther "D" and "G" versions using this Color Green in a variety of patterns. Works for me ! :wink2:

 

[Guy]

I just finished researching my WWII Tank encyclopedia in color and found several Panther "D" and "G" versions using this Color Green in a variety of patterns. Works for me ! :wink2:

Works for me too.!!!!!!!! Like you I have several sources that confirm this colour and also the combination of rubber and steel wheels
guy

 

[ExRanger]

I'm all on board for this new Panther. It has a beautiful subdued and weathered look for a late war Panther. Easier to conceal. Andy, job well done and this will be added to my collection.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

People are used to seeing very colourful, high contrast, hard edged colour schemes on Panther tanks. Here is a photo of what a sparingly painted in the field with no hard edges between colours looks like.

But unless someone has an actual colour photo from 1944 - 1945, there is no way to prove or disprove a colour schemes existence. The only proof is that very late in the war, Panthers were shipped from M.A.N. assembly plant in red oxcide primer only with the camo colours to be applied sparingly in the field and due to paint shortages, substitute colours were suggested.

Terry

 

[wayne556517]

Looks ok to me.