“If dealers were allowed to discount prices would be lower to collectors” (1 Viewer)

[TomNT]

Neil

Did you read the other posts in this thread? Have your read the open criticisms of maufacturers that have seen them come onto the Forum and engage in open arguments with members? Have you seen the scale, accuracy, and price threads that have seen manufacturers defending their products in the face of what were thinly veiled accusations that they were lying, members waging campaigns against certain manufacturers and their products, members banned, or banned from certain threads, or suspended from posting, members put on enforced ignore, members accusing each other of being Nazis, Communists, Racists, Homophobes, New Zealanders.

In the midst of this, I have made almost 4000 posts and have only twice been critical - in any fashion - of any manufacturer or their product. I bad mouthed John Jenkins for releasing products that compelled me to buy them because they were so good and I mention that an FL Stug which I had thought about possibly maybe buying had been retired which put me off. I am quite the baiter - twice in 4000 posts. Get ready for February 2014 because I will really let rip. I then acknowledged that every manufacturer retires products and it was a logical and appropriate decision and indeed, why should a businessman hang around while I make a decision?

I will apologise again for the vitriolic and aggressive manner in which I have posted in this thread but I will add that it is odd that you bag the censors for the manner in which they do their job but they allow your criticism of censorship to stand. Perhaps they are more committed to your right of free speech than you are to mine.

Regards

Jack

Well, I have been off crook all week (and im still under the weather) but I have to say this thread has livened me up! Marty, I think you have summed it up very nicely although I think an open letter of apology to New Zealanders is warranted!!! {sm4}

Im off to bed!

Tom

 

[Martin Tabony]

Yes, That indeed does go on as well.... Speculators and (Even Worse) Dealer-Speculators.....EZ Answer: Simply refuse to buy from them....Retired????...Oh well.... keep it...."Way Over-priced"...Oh well.... KEEP IT AGAIN.^&grin....Sorry...Not playing that game. It only continues to drive up prices for all of us in this hobby and none of us need that.

I have to admit that if a price is going to be set it has to work both ways. There are retailers who increase the price of figures if they become sought after. As a "registered dealer" then they should be interested in a level playing field surely!

Martin

 

[gk5717]

Please correct me if I,m wrong. The dealer buys from K&C, K&C has it,s money. The dealer cannot return unsold stock. How is K&C at a loss financilly?
The dealer discounts to move stock, thus creating a cash flow to buy more from K&C. The discounter makes up the discount loss thru volume.
There are no giant retailers like WalMart involved here. I,m sorry I just don,t get it.
I,m sure if K&C in purchasing material for production and all things being equel, would purchase from the supplier who gave him the best price. Why can,t the retail customer?
Gary

 

[Vezzolf]

Please correct me if I,m wrong. The dealer buys from K&C, K&C has it,s money. The dealer cannot return unsold stock. How is K&C at a loss financilly?
The dealer discounts to move stock, thus creating a cash flow to buy more from K&C. The discounter makes up the discount loss thru volume.
There are no giant retailers like WalMart involved here. I,m sorry I just don,t get it.
I,m sure if K&C in purchasing material for production and all things being equel, would purchase from the supplier who gave him the best price. Why can,t the retail customer?
Gary

BINGO....Excellent Post{bravo}}{bravo}}

 

[Vezzolf]

There ya go! It's called rational choice and it is EZ as you say; just buy what you can afford on your income...so simple...and I've found that with a little extra effort you can avoid the envy when those who can afford them pay $160 each for those Red Lancers that you quietly admit are really nice. Now if I could just get fuel for only $4 per gallon... what a pity it doesn't have a fixed universal price.

Well Fitz in regards to gas prices....you don't have much choice in the matter.... unless you ride a bicycle or a horse:wink2:

 

[binder001]

Indeed I would say that your comparison of Walmart jeans to a brand would be closer to buying "green army men" in a bag, instead of King and Country! If as you say "The cachet does help resale, I admit, and yes, I have capitalized on that." then you are buying for the name.
....
What matters here is that there has to be a sufficient price set to cover all expenses along the chain. If not then there won't be enough profit to make new products! Martin

Yes, I said that I had capitalized on the resale value - I'm not quite as stupid as I look. I do NOT buy my figures just because they say "King & Country". I buy them because they are a quality product and they go well together. In my models I can mix brands to get the highest quality model and accessories. This doesn't work for toy soldiers. Different brands do not always look "right" together (but that is sujective to each collector). I also buy them because Andy has produced well-sculpted, nicely painted figures. By the way, I DO also buy "green army men" in bags - I can convert them and get as much joy from that as from getting a new K&C set.

I will not argue that K&C isn't a class act with a fine product. The argument here is what happens after the dealer pays his invoice from Hong Kong and the product is on the shelf. Then it should be up to the dealer to decide how to deal with his/her market. If said dealer is in a high-rent mall, then they probably can't discount much unless there is an overstock situation. If the dealer has a clientele that will pay extra for the retired figures, then so be it. If the guy/gal selling out of the back of the local hardware store has low overhead then they should be free to pass that on to the customers. As GK5717 pointed out, the manufacturer has made their money - they are paying their staff and doing the development for new product. Whether the dealer then makes 10% or 40% does NOT affect the manufacturer directly. Yes, it can affect the distribution network by shifting volumes, but that doesn't seem to show up much in my experience with hobby items. In model hobby lines they don't enforce an artificial price, the manufacturer and distributor have their charges and the dealer can retail or discount as required to move the product and generate cash flow. We aren't talking about the old $1.99 Revell tank that kids would assemble, these are the high end products from Dragon, Tasca, Tamiya, etc.

The free market works quite well, the dealers should be unshackled.

 

[desk11desk12]

Please correct me if I,m wrong. The dealer buys from K&C, K&C has it,s money. The dealer cannot return unsold stock. How is K&C at a loss financilly?
The dealer discounts to move stock, thus creating a cash flow to buy more from K&C. The discounter makes up the discount loss thru volume.
There are no giant retailers like WalMart involved here. I,m sorry I just don,t get it.
I,m sure if K&C in purchasing material for production and all things being equel, would purchase from the supplier who gave him the best price. Why can,t the retail customer?
Gary

Hello Gary:

IMO If dealers discounted KC (or any product); collectors/ customers simply will become used of waiting for the dealers to discount the product in the futue. Therefore the discount product in time becomes the new market price and eventually forces retail prices and profit margins downward.

This forces manufacturers to become more efficient in productions or quality suffers or some combination. Also, dealers overhead is different between store fronts and internet only. With reduced product margins, it will put even more of a squeeze on "brick & mortar" stores with some eventually closing it up &becoming internet only stores and maybe worse closing up permanently. This means fewer venues to titillate the tactile visual collector; especially the potential new collector.


Yes, there is plenty competitors in the market but this market operates more like an "oligopoly". Where (with few exceptions); the market leader (KC) raises prices and the everyone else also does just enough to keep their price difference with KC the same. Therefore they all protect the profit margins. The rationale; is cost of labor & materials complicated with a weaker US dollar and weaker global economics. I agree this is a reality. With product price increases and the oligopoly market condition; many collectors have simply left industry with the exception of an occasional purchase. This has created a glut on the secondary market of TS product fetching lower prices. Interestingly, the remaining TS collectors buying retail are willing to buy in sufficient volume a perceived higher quality product at premium prices.


KC will insist they have competition and more than ever before. They do! However, they earned enough market share power where they can shift entire market price upward. It's really amazing to witness this. That's power! When First Legion enter the market, their prices were about $15-20 more than KC's. Now, that price difference is less than $5/ figure despite FL prices also increasing almost $25/ figure. AMAZING!


There's an incredible paradigm shift happening and IMO it just not because of material and labor price rises. Its a purposeful market strategy by the market leader and refined in the last 2 years. I'll let you and the rest of market to decide whether the price increases make FL & KC (P) series figures equal. My discussion is it about who has the better product. However, the causalities of this paradigm shift can be quantified by the glut of collectors selling off their collections on eBay at decreasing prices.

KC is looking to protect and max. annual revenues and it can do it. Not by product volume but but total revenue. IMO, their strategy will work. However, it will be a short term strategy unless global economies significantly improves; especially in the US and Europe or unless China picks up the slack in sales. If this doesn't happen, then the industry will contract into a hobby for the eclectic and wealthy. Maybe that's where it belongs.

What if Game - "Build a better Mouse Trap".

Flank the industry and redefine it by producing high quality themes in quantity at reasonable prices and $25-30 less than FL & KC. This can be done by:

- Marketing (shows and a consistent social media campaigns)
- Innovative technologies (3D Printers or something else)
- Distribution channels (Eliminate the dealer and go direct). This requires developing a direct relationship with the collector. I know this is sacrilege

In conjunction with pricing any of these or combination would work to reset and redefine the market. Eventually it would put pressure on the KC and the dealer and especially if the dealer has aging KC inventory on their shelves. This is all "pie in the sky" because it takes "time & money" necessary to create this change.

I liked where Britians was going with their sales & price strategy (compare their prices) before Richard Walker left. It might have been the right time to challenge the WWII TS companies.


In conclusion, KC strategy will work if they keep the course and market & economic conditions don't change despite the anger from collectors. In the end, it's business!

Carlos

 

[Vezzolf]

Well Carlos that certainly is a mouthful:rolleyes2:...But.....With prices constantly and steadily being raised in this hobby collectors are spending less (for the most part).... or at the least being very discriminating as to what they will purchase......Many are trying to (quite unsucessfully) unload a glut of K/C products on e-bay.... only NOW... Realising that the value of their collections are not what they were led to believe:wink2:....Every market has its limit in regards to price......and in the end it is the consumer/collector who will decide with their wallets wether or not a TS product is 'Worth It"....TS are not essential needs like food, rent, gasoline and health care etc all of which are rising.......At this rate of TS price increases fewer new collectors will enter this hobby, more will be leaving the hobby, many will buy less and more product will sit on dealer shelves.

 

[binder001]

Carlos, I can see certain economic sense in what you said. It just seems so counter-intuitive to the way the model market has bbeen operating. Take my beloved Sherman tanks, prices are higher yes, but what you get is SO much better than years ago. There has been a steady increase in quality, but one can't say that the market has increased. The model kits now have reached a fairly high level of complexity and very few "big box" stores carry high end armor models. However the market seems strong, many new kits come on the market AND the local dealers are free to adjust prices.

 

[Jack]

I think that it is problematic to talk about what collectors are doing as though our personal connections with the hobby are indicative of the world scene.

The collectors I know well enough to make a reasonably accurate judgement of their buying patterns tell this story:

Forty percent have not altered their buying patterns at all and in fact appear to be buying more.
Twenty percent have purchased less but stayed in the hobby.
Forty percent spend the same but have looked to glossies, plastics, other manuafacturers to get more 'bang for their buck'.
Ten percent are new collectors and are spending like drunken sailors on leave.

The hobby looks very strong based on those figures. The fact that it refers to ten people, eight of whom live within 30 minutes drive of each other means that my view of spending patterns is, in fact, worthless. To make statements about buying patterns, profits of major companies, world trends would mean you would have to have some access to the 'books' or be a dealer who attends many shows, internationally, in order to be able to make comparisons across years. To use Jenkins as an example I see the same models and figures under glass every week at my TS shop. Looks bad ... unless you turn up on mail day and fall over the mountain of boxes containing his product that the display items help shift.

It would interest me to know how many people really have access to the data to be able to make that call about a decline in world wide sales? Are there authoritative voices or are we all extrapolating our own experience and what we have 'heard'. I have worked in an industry where people would often sit down at my desk and mistake my quiet disinterest in their problems for care and concern and talk about falling morale amongst the staff. No one who was happy would say that ... invariably they had low morale, were upset at some slight, and just saw evidence of it as a wider trend.

Just my three cents worth (it was 2 cents last week but the Aussie dollar has taken a fall!)

 

[wayne556517]

Well Carlos that certainly is a mouthful:rolleyes2:...But.....With prices constantly and steadily being raised in this hobby collectors are spending less (for the most part).... or at the least being very discriminating as to what they will purchase......Many are trying to (quite unsucessfully) unload a glut of K/C products on e-bay.... only NOW... Realising that the value of their collections are not what they were led to believe:wink2:....Every market has its limit in regards to price......and in the end it is the consumer/collector who will decide with their wallets wether or not a TS product is 'Worth It"....TS are not essential needs like food, rent, gasoline and health care etc all of which are rising.......At this rate of TS price increases fewer new collectors will enter this hobby, more will be leaving the hobby, many will buy less and more product will sit on dealer shelves.

Mate how did you come to this conclusion ??
Is it that you just don't like K&C ^&confuse i check ebay everyday and a lot of K&C on ebay isn't discounted......................^&confuse
I NEVER look for FL because i don't collect the over rated product so i don't waste my time searching for it BUT i did today and
found a GLUT of FL on there and FIGARTI and Collectors Showcase and TGM so im a bit confused how its only K&C being off loaded.
I collect as a hobby not a investment so what something is worth has JACK to do with if i buy it or not,its not or doom and gloom mate no new collectors etc etc
not everyone who collects is on TS forums mate.
I suggest you ask some dealers how the hobby is going as im sure they have more contact with collectors than you,i don't see any TS shops selling up so i think you just take every chance you can to bag K&C !!

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I think that it is problematic to talk about what collectors are doing as though our personal connections with the hobby are indicative of the world scene.

The collectors I know well enough to make a reasonably accurate judgement of their buying patterns tell this story:

Forty percent have not altered their buying patterns at all and in fact appear to be buying more.
Twenty percent have purchased less but stayed in the hobby.
Forty percent spend the same but have looked to glossies, plastics, other manuafacturers to get more 'bang for their buck'.
Ten percent are new collectors and are spending like drunken sailors on leave.

The hobby looks very strong based on those figures. The fact that it refers to ten people, eight of whom live within 30 minutes drive of each other means that my view of spending patterns is, in fact, worthless. To make statements about buying patterns, profits of major companies, world trends would mean you would have to have some access to the 'books' or be a dealer who attends many shows, internationally, in order to be able to make comparisons across years. To use Jenkins as an example I see the same models and figures under glass every week at my TS shop. Looks bad ... unless you turn up on mail day and fall over the mountain of boxes containing his product that the display items help shift.

It would interest me to know how many people really have access to the data to be able to make that call about a decline in world wide sales? Are there authoritative voices or are we all extrapolating our own experience and what we have 'heard'. I have worked in an industry where people would often sit down at my desk and mistake my quiet disinterest in their problems for care and concern and talk about falling morale amongst the staff. No one who was happy would say that ... invariably they had low morale, were upset at some slight, and just saw evidence of it as a wider trend.

Just my three cents worth (it was 2 cents last week but the Aussie dollar has taken a fall!)

Interesting argument Jack. But your Ph.D. isn't in statistics , is it. 40% + 20% + 40% + 10% = 110% {eek3}^&grin

Terry

 

[PanzerAce1944]

A few things to keep in mind in regards to one of the previous posts mentioning a glut of K&C being off loaded on E-Bay. K&C has been producing since 1984, much longer than FL, Figarti, etc......
Based on that there will be more K&C E-Bay listings as they have made as much product if not more than 3 or 4 of the other producers combined. Look at how much new stuff comes out month
after month, year after year from K&C. Just in the last 10 years alone look at how much they have produced. That justifiably would equal more of their product traded and sold on the internet.
Now, for some fun check out NorthGate Woods collection here in the General Toy Soldier section. Something pleasurable to really admire :salute::

 

[Peter Reuss]

Gents, I think we've been down this road before. Repeatedly. Often. I don't think that many of you are going to change your mind on things, no matter how many times this horse gets dragged from the glue factory for another whipping.

This is not a FL vs K&C vs JJD vs Britains vs CJWTS (Crackpot Joe's Wicked Toy Soldiers) issue. People all have different glimpses into the hobby. As a dealer I am privy to a lot of data that you are not. As collectors you are privy to your own experiences and the experiences of those you talk to.

I suggest we get back to enjoying our collections and keep the stench of this old horse from smelling up people's forum experiences.

 

[Jack]

Interesting argument Jack. But your Ph.D. isn't in statistics , is it. 40% + 20% + 40% + 10% = 110% {eek3}^&grin

Terry

I counted my experience twice. It was that intense.

 

[Rob]

Gents, I think we've been down this road before. Repeatedly. Often. I don't think that many of you are going to change your mind on things, no matter how many times this horse gets dragged from the glue factory for another whipping.

This is not a FL vs K&C vs JJD vs Britains vs CJWTS (Crackpot Joe's Wicked Toy Soldiers) issue. People all have different glimpses into the hobby. As a dealer I am privy to a lot of data that you are not. As collectors you are privy to your own experiences and the experiences of those you talk to.

I suggest we get back to enjoying our collections and keep the stench of this old horse from smelling up people's forum experiences.

Fully agree with this, this topic as had some very interesting points raised and it would be a shame if it descended into the normal ' mines better than yours ' garbage, that particular Horsey does indeed reek.

Rob

 

[DM101]

...... Just look what happened to Britain a few years back. I know people talk as though they've always been here, but they haven't!

Martin

I am new to this hobby. What "happened to Britain a few years back" ?

 

[Mitch]

Now that would be innovative dead horses in the hobby that indeed reek!!! That would be realism or P indeed. LOL
Mitch

 

[Peter Reuss]

I am new to this hobby. What "happened to Britain a few years back" ?

When Britains was owned by Racing Champions/Ertl they were quite mismanaged. Discounting of their products became the norm, to the point where people learned not to buy something when first released because they knew that they could pick it up at bargain basement prices later. Many dealers quit carrying it because of the drop in quality and profit margins. It all led to a downward spiral. Before First Gear purchased the line there was a question as to whether Britains would continue on.

 

[Warrior]

This is not a FL vs K&C vs JJD vs Britains vs CJWTS (Crackpot Joe's Wicked Toy Soldiers) issue. People all have different glimpses into the hobby. As a dealer I am privy to a lot of data that you are not. As collectors you are privy to your own experiences and the experiences of those you talk to.

Very well said; recently I've seen a pattern on this forum about doom and gloom, people cutting back and not spending like they used to, not a lot of new collectors coming into the hobby, product piling up on dealer shelves, etc, etc; as Pete said, as dealers we are privy to a lot of data that you are not and none of the data I am seeing suggests any of the above mentioned scenarios.

This forum is a small snapshot of the hobby; granted a very vocal one, but once again, a small snapshot.

And on a different note; Pete, please send me via PM information on this Crackpot Joe's Wicked Toy Soldiers company you speak of, haven't heard of them and I'd like to get in on the ground floor before 936 other dealers pile in and water the product down............:wink2: