1/30 Scale Vehicles (2 Viewers)

[FirstLegion]

I've been reading with interest the debate that's been going on in the Figarti forum discussing the merits of K&C and Figarti vehicles. I've sort of been watching and one thing that has crossed my mind a few times are the following questions. I realize that this is a different approach - a MFR asking collectors to answer questions, but hell, you guys ask us all the time, so now is your turn to answer some questions!

1. Do you guys really think that Figarti and K&C vehicles are THAT good? Seriously....are they that good or are they just the best available to you in pre-painted form?

2. Do you all really think that it can't be done any BETTER than these companies (K&C, Figarti, HB, etc...) do it? Have you standards on quality been so programmed that you think what you're buying today is the pinnacle of what you could be buying? Seriously, I'm not trying to be patronizing nor am I saying that we'll do it differently or better, I"m just asking what your stock expecations are...

Nevermind the rest of my questions. I guess where I'm going with this is that have you all had your standards so set to the quality of these pieces that you think what these companies produce is actually the pinnacle of what can be achieved? I'm really just wondering.

I realize that this may be viewed as a controversial topic, particulary for a MFR, on this forum, but seriously I'm interested. I look at the vehicles (and figures) that you all fawn over and, seriously, I just don't see it.

Regards,
Matt

 

[vandilay]

I think it realy comes down to quality v,s price .
I,ve no dought quality can be improved and is being
all the time , but that generally comes at a cost .
Its good to have a choice of fairly acurate vehicles
at a reasonable price and if youve got the mullah and
are that way inclined higher spec at a higher price.

 

[FirstLegion]

I think it realy comes down to quality v,s price .
I,ve no dought quality can be improved and is being
all the time , but that generally comes at a cost .
Its good to have a choice of fairly acurate vehicles
at a reasonable price and if youve got the mullah and
are that way inclined higher spec at a higher price.

Corrrect me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that HB vehicles were $350-$500. I'm not sure how someone could make them more expensive short of gold plating them...

I agree qaulity vs. price is obviously relevant, but I'm really just talking about the quality of the vehicle itself. Is there some company out there offering vehicles at a higher price that I'm unaware of? If not, then i'm not sure how your comment of quality vs. price is at all relevant is no one is offering high quality at higher price....

 

[Harrytheheid]

I've been reading with interest the debate that's been going on in the Figarti forum discussing the merits of K&C and Figarti vehicles. I've sort of been watching and one thing that has crossed my mind a few times are the following questions. I realize that this is a different approach - a MFR asking collectors to answer questions, but hell, you guys ask us all the time, so now is your turn to answer some questions!

1. Do you guys really think that Figarti and K&C vehicles are THAT good? Seriously....are they that good or are they just the best available to you in pre-painted form?

2. Do you all really think that it can't be done any BETTER than these companies (K&C, Figarti, HB, etc...) do it? Have you standards on quality been so programmed that you think what you're buying today is the pinnacle of what you could be buying? Seriously, I'm not trying to be patronizing nor am I saying that we'll do it differently or better, I"m just asking what your stock expecations are...

Nevermind the rest of my questions. I guess where I'm going with this is that have you all had your standards so set to the quality of these pieces that you think what these companies produce is actually the pinnacle of what can be achieved? I'm really just wondering.

I realize that this may be viewed as a controversial topic, particulary for a MFR, on this forum, but seriously I'm interested. I look at the vehicles (and figures) that you all fawn over and, seriously, I just don't see it.

Regards,
Matt

Well First Commissar,
I'm not going to comment on K&C FAV's, the evidence is there for anyone with the slightest discernment to judge for themselves.
I'm not going to comment on HB cos I don't have any - although I do admit I'm kicking myself for missing out on their Gold Sherman - but you can't collect everything, can you?
From a purely personal point of view, I believe Figarti's AFV's are, overall, the very best that are available right now and I look forward with bated breath to delivery of the new tanks I presently have on order.
Now, when you release your Panzer tank - or whatever it's going to be, then I shall take a very close and dispassionate look at the thing, and if I deem it worthy, then I might just allow it to sit on a shelf - or even in a diorama along with my wonderful, wonderful, Figarti tanks.

Thank GOODNESS it won't be yet another Tiger or Panther - this time.

Tanks Very Much

Harry

 

[vandilay]

Corrrect me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that HB vehicles were $350-$500. I'm not sure how someone could make them more expensive short of gold plating them...

I agree qaulity vs. price is obviously relevant, but I'm really just talking about the quality of the vehicle itself. Is there some company out there offering vehicles at a higher price that I'm unaware of? If not, then i'm not sure how your comment of quality vs. price is at all relevant is no one is offering high quality at higher price....

I believe that is correct for the gold series , I have only ever bought
a regular honour bound panther so cant realy comment on the quality of the gold series as i,ve neve seen it first hand.
I,ve no dought that someone or one of the current producers such as yoursleves can make a superior vehicle than whats available now.
The real question is can it be done without sending costs through the roof [and thus cattering to a vey select group of well heeled collectors]
unless that is the market you are aiming at of course.
As to your question about any higher quality vehicles being made than Figarti etc
with the demise of the gold series none that i,m aware of but collectors in the US etc
are better placed to answer that ?

 

[FirstLegion]

I believe that is correct for the gold series , I have only ever bought
a regular honour bound panther so cant realy comment on the quality of the gold series as i,ve neve seen it first hand.
I,ve no dought that someone or one of the current producers such as yoursleves can make a superior vehicle than whats available now.
The real question is can it be done without sending costs through the roof [and thus cattering to a vey select group of well heeled collectors]
unless that is the market you are aiming at of course.

Please don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying. But you're not answering the question that I'm really asking. Which is are the vehicles that are currently on offer that good? (ignore price please, I"m soley talkng about quality without reference to price).

 

[vandilay]

Please don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying. But you're not answering the question that I'm really asking. Which is are the vehicles that are currently on offer that good? (ignore price please, I"m soley talkng about quality without reference to price).

If I dont take price into account i,d say figarti come closet to the sort
of models you see model makers build .
But would I enter a lot of whats available into a scratch build or model
competition probably not.

 

[FirstLegion]

If I dont take price into account i,d say figarti come closet to the sort
of models you see model makers build .
But would I enter a lot of whats available into a scratch build or model
competition probably not.

Ok, fair enough.

 

[IXEC]

Myself, I have HB, FG, CS, K&C in my collection. I was a Dragon ( plastic ), Minichamps ( diecast ) collector before I got into TS. I didn't like K & C vehicles at all, Figarti I though were sloopy and overpriced, CS were good for the money but had error's, HB were very good but the marked up price was to much.

I didn't buy the Figarti Lee's because I though they were to much money, even on sale, etc.... But if someone were to come along and make better stuff I would sell everything and go with that. There is a limit to what I'll pay even for Great vehicles. There is a ceiling with price in this hobby, even if one can afford big prices.

 

[FirstLegion]

Myself, I have HB, FG, CS, K&C in my collection. I was a Dragon ( plastic ), Minichamps ( diecast ) collector before I got into TS. I didn't like K & C vehicles at all, Figarti I though were sloopy and overpriced, CS were good for the money but had error's, HB were very good but the marked up price was to much.

I didn't buy the Figarti Lee's because I though they were to much money, even on sale, etc.... But if someone were to come along and make better stuff I would sell everything and go with that. There is a limit to what I'll pay even for Great vehicles. There is a ceiling with price in this hobby, even if one can afford big prices.

Interesting comments Paul. You mention that there is ceiling in this hobby, however, without seeing what can actuallly be achieved in terms of accuracy and detail, how does one know what that ceiling is? I'm just wondering....

 

[BrianW]

Hi Matt

Personally, I do not believe we have yet reached the pinnacle of model vehicle manufacture and I would very much welcome any improvements which can be achieved.

Each of the current manufactures has their strong/weak points and their exponents as with all things, but I do believe, as you quite rightly suggest, we have to some extent been 'programmed' into believing what is available is the very best that can be achieved.

I shall follow this thread with interest.

Regards

Brian

 

[FirstLegion]

Hi Matt

Personally, I do not believe we have yet reached the pinnacle of model vehicle manufacture and I would very much welcome any improvements which can be achieved.

Each of the current manufactures has their strong/weak points and their exponents as with all things, but I do believe, as you quite rightly suggest, we have to some extent been 'programmed' into believing what is available is the very best that can be achieved.

I shall follow this thread with interest.

Regards

Brian

Thanks for your comments Brian. If you are interested in vehicles, you should follow this thread with interest because it will end with us displaying our first vehicles if that's something that intrigues you....I can't promise that they'll impress you but I can promise you that they'll be so much more than what is currently available.

 

[BrianW]

From what I have seen of your products so far Matt I'm quite sure I will be impressed.

I am confident your new range will have the quality of sculpt,detail and paint finish that I have been looking for for a considerable period of time.

I have pre-ordered a number of pieces via Mark at TM Terrian and await the release of these with baited breath.

Regards

Brian

 

[binder001]

As far as quality and detail, of course we haven't seen the top of the line yet. Techniques improve, technology makes certain thing available that weren't before. I have built plastic tanks since I was a kid. Tamiya was "state of the art" in the 1980s. Now we have Dragon releasing computer-designed kits that have multiple sub-variants, plus we have turned metal gun barrels, resin parts and accessories, photo-etch metal parts, and tank tracks that are kits in themselves. Have we peaked? Not yet! HOWEVER, a good kit for a Sherman tank in 1/35th had an MSRP of about $15-20 USD in the 80's, but now the newest Fragon M4 has an MSRP of about $60+ USD, plus the after market parts to go on it. The Gold series from Honour Bound was asking $450 for an M4A1 Sherman, but they are sharp models. I'm sure yourself or another maker can produce wonderful models, but will they be affordable to the average collector? Are K&C vehicles perfect? No, but they DO keep imroving. Can somebody produce something better? Of course, provided I'm willing to give them my next two house payments. I am always impressed by what the different makers can do. People are looking at different media - plastic, resin, brass, etc. New technology might be able to reduce the amount of hand labor, thus decreasing cost. Right now K&C and Figarti represent about the best items that I can currently walk into a store and purchase. Will they always be the best? Probably not. I am waiting to see the next generation of collectibles and will probably be very impressed when they come out.

Gary B.

 

[FirstLegion]

As far as quality and detail, of course we haven't seen the top of the line yet. Techniques improve, technology makes certain thing available that weren't before. I have built plastic tanks since I was a kid. Tamiya was "state of the art" in the 1980s. Now we have Dragon releasing computer-designed kits that have multiple sub-variants, plus we have turned metal gun barrels, resin parts and accessories, photo-etch metal parts, and tank tracks that are kits in themselves. Have we peaked? Not yet! HOWEVER, a good kit for a Sherman tank in 1/35th had an MSRP of about $15-20 USD in the 80's, but now the newest Fragon M4 has an MSRP of about $60+ USD, plus the after market parts to go on it. The Gold series from Honour Bound was asking $450 for an M4A1 Sherman, but they are sharp models. I'm sure yourself or another maker can produce wonderful models, but will they be affordable to the average collector? Are K&C vehicles perfect? No, but they DO keep imroving. Can somebody produce something better? Of course, provided I'm willing to give them my next two house payments. I am always impressed by what the different makers can do. People are looking at different media - plastic, resin, brass, etc. New technology might be able to reduce the amount of hand labor, thus decreasing cost. Right now K&C and Figarti represent about the best items that I can currently walk into a store and purchase. Will they always be the best? Probably not. I am waiting to see the next generation of collectibles and will probably be very impressed when they come out.

Gary B.

That's all well and good Gary. But when the next generation model is released will you buy it?

 

[fmethorst]

In my opinion none of the vehicles produced are as good as the 1/35 plastic kits I have seen built by top modellers.

The HB Gold series is very good and the customization option was a lot of fun but as has been noted the price is prohibitive to many collectors. Their original series was priced much more reasonably and truth be told wasn't that far behind the Gold series.

I have often looked at the mass produced low cost diecast pieces and thought from a value perspective they far surpass the hand produced polystone/metal of the TS producers.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I collect mainly tanks with enough troops to do displays. I am well read on AFVs and know a fair bit about the vehicels' histories, combat experienes and model (Ausf) upgrades and variations. Having collected for many years, I know we are not at the pinnacle and my expectations have not been influenced by what is available.

I began collecting 1/35 scale Minichamps tanks and later 1/72 Dragon. I switched to K&C as Minichamps didn't often produce tanks and Dragon didn't produce enough vehicle types, mostly repaint after repaint of the same ones.

K&C offered reasonable detail and figures to go with the AFV as part of a set at a reasonable price. Their appeal was that many of the AFVs had character - they were not sterile pieces like the Minichamps tanks. Rather like a painting which captures a feeling of battle rather than a digital photo which captures every detail exactly but conveys no impression. And K&C quality has improved greatly, so in my opinion, now make some excellent models.

I also began collecting pieces from other manufacturers which offered more detail. Honour Bound and Figarti offered a limited number of AFV types so I was able to add a small number of high quality, key AFVs to go with the wide range of K&C AFVs. As a armour specialist, this allowed me to have a wide range of AFVs with good detail and character at affordable prices and a small number of higher quality pieces at higher prices. If Figarti or HB produced a fuller range of AFVs like K&C, I could not have afforded them.

I put the pieces of different manufacturers together, so scale is very important. Earlier K&C and Figarti pieces were 1/32 and go well together. Recent K&C and Figarti pieces are 1/30 scale as were the HB AFVs.

My last point is Quality. I hear it mentioned over and over but no one ever explains what they mean by it. Historical accuracy? Most manufacturers AFVs are historically accurate for the most part - not much difference there.

For me, quality is the detail of tracks and wheels - compare early vs recent K&C models and you can see the increase in detail and then look at the even higher detail of Figarti and HB. Quality is also in the paint/finish/weathing. I can't resist rust on a whitewashed tank. The vehicle that impresses me the most for finish is the pebbly finish on the HB Sherman - it looks just like the finish on the real tank. Other definitions of quality for me are hatches that open, exposed parts (motors, gun breeches, interiors, realistic faces) all of which come at an increased cost.

So the door is open Matt. Let's see what you can do at 1/30 scale. Looking forward to it.

Terry

 

[desk11desk12]

OKAY, I’LL BITE.

SEE MY ANSWERS BELOW; MY APOLOGIES FOR THE "CAPS" IN MY RESPONSE. I'M NOT YELLING I JUST WANT TO DISTINGUSH MY ANSWERS FROM MATT'S ORIGINAL POST.

1. Do you guys really think that Figarti and K&C vehicles are THAT good? Seriously....are they that good or are they just the best available to you in pre-painted form?

YES!

2. Do you all really think that it can't be done any BETTER than these companies (K&C, Figarti, HB, etc...) do it?

NOT AT THESE PRICE POINTS!

QUESTION TO YOU:
HOWEVER, ARE THERE ENOUGH OF VERY WEALTHY THAT WILL SUSTAIN FINANCIALLY; THE NECESSARY R&D, PRODUCTION, MARKETING AND REMAIN PROFITABLE?

I DON’T KNOW BUT TIME WILL TELL.

Have you standards on quality been so programmed that you think what you're buying today is the pinnacle of what you could be buying?

WE HAVE NOT BEEN PROGRAMMED; OTHERWISE HB AND FIGARTI WOULD HAVE NEVER CHALLENGED KC.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be patronizing nor am I saying that we'll do it differently or better, I"m just asking what your stock expecations are...

REALLY, NOT PATRONIZING? YOUR BEING PROVOCATIVE AS GOOD MARKETERS DO.

Nevermind the rest of my questions. I guess where I'm going with this is that have you all had your standards so set to the quality of these pieces that you think what these companies produce is actually the pinnacle of what can be achieved? I'm really just wondering.

I realize that this may be viewed as a controversial topic, particulary for a MFR, on this forum, but seriously I'm interested. I look at the vehicles (and figures) that you all fawn over and, seriously, I just don't see it.

NOTHING LIKE STEERING UP CONTROVERSY TO DRAW ATTENTION IS THERE MATT?

I HOPE I PROVIDED YOU THE DIRECT ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS; NO “BEATING AROUND THE BUSH” FOR ME.

Carlos

 

[FirstLegion]

I agree with Frank 100% - none of what's available to TS collectors even comes close to what can be done with a kit.............well, at least until now.

 

[FirstLegion]

Well, I guess that K&C's and Figarti's vehicles are that good then.

My apologies.

Regards,

Matt