1st Legion's New Stug (2 Viewers)

[Steven Chong]

I think you're misreading me entirely Steven. If I have offended you, it certainly wasn't on purpose. It would be pretty counterproductive to do so. So that wasn't my intent at all and my comments about "finding it interesting" aren't to suggest that you were being "nefarious" in some way. I'm sorry you took it that way, as that is not what I meant at all. In fact, most of what I was specifically thinking of has little to nothing to do with you at all Steven.

In the end, I'm probably misreading you and you're misreading me and I definitely shouldn't make inferences as there is the possibility that they will be construed the wrong way, which is what has happened here. I'll take the hit on that, but just know that at no point did I mean to be offensive towards you personally. If you want to discuss this further, feel free to PM me.

Regards,

Matt

Dear Matt,

Thank you for the clarification. I am glad that I am misreading the intent of your responses and apologize for the tone that I used. I admire the passion you have for your products, but understand that the Stug is your first vehicle that only became available last week. As pointed out, I am currently one of the very few that actually has the Stug and can speak about it from actual knowledge. The other manufacturers' vehicles are known to collectors and really do not need their features, materials or painting style to be discussed by a collector like me.

Steven

 

[BrianW]

Steven/Andanna

Thanks for your reviews of the Stug, most useful and good to read the views of those who have actually seen them in the 'flesh' as it were.

I have more or less decided to purchase at least one of the Stugs if not both (finances being the deciding factor unfortunately) based, I admit, purely on the photographs I've seen of them and the descriptions of them on FL's website.

I like the level of acurately depicted detail and the paint finish/weathering details.

If the Stug's are anything like the figures then the photographs I've seen will not do them any justice.

I look forward getting at least one in November/December.

Thanks again folks.

Regards

Brian

 

[uksubs]

I strongly believe that pictures say more than a thousand words. I may hence refer to Carlos' excellent pictures here:

I think your right it does look great going by the photos
I think 1'st legion tanks are the way forward going by the look of them tracks
Just give me a King tiger

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

Hello All!
I think I have mentioned that I was in George's room and that I picked up the new First Legion vehicle and looked it over.
It looked very much like a vehicle I built some years ago as a 1/35th scale model... and that impressed me. Take a look at the images of the product posted earlier on this thread. I have no vested interest in promoting 1t Legion or any of their products, so please read my comments as a the perspective of a professional model maker.

It is obvious that there was some investment in research and design in this vehicle, and a good decision to use superior materials for accuracy and durability. That is not always the case in an industry where the runs are small and the investment in research and design is often nothing more than purchasing a kit from a parallel hobby and scaling it up or down. This can often include replicating scaling errors and historical inaccuracies.

As I have stated on my own thread before, Urethane resin is a superior material for duplication to Polyester resin. I have personally worked with both and there is no doubt to me.
It simply does not have the same shrinkage issues that Polyester resin with inert fillers does. This latter material is often referred to as Polystone in our industry and although it is economical to use, it has problems that are in some case unacceptable to me as a model maker.

As far as the weight of a vehicle... Increased weight is a shipping nightmare and a real disadvantage to the replication of realistic suspension systems. I personally would always elect to use a lightweight material if it will be durable and will duplicate fine details.

My Diecast Minichamps Panther was a well designed model that used materials with significant weight. To my surprise the suspension has suffered from the weight of the upper body and as a result seems to represent a vehicle with the torsion bars compromised or broken.
This is one example where the increased weight had a negative side effect.

I think we need to be thoughtful when evaluating new products. If the materials used are somehow different than we might expect, then we should research them and decide if it is bringing us a more detailed and accurate product. If so then we should embrace it.

As new materials are developed in the future that might be useful in model making, we will have to make new evaluations too.

It appears that the traditional scale model disciplines are now starting to overlap the traditional toy soldier philosophies in some areas of the market. As with any change there will be an adjustment period.

All the Best!

Ken Osen
Hudson & Allen Studio

 

[IXEC]

There is a TS show here in Massachusetts, the NNTTS Show, Oct.25th. George from MMTS will be one of approximately 100 vendor tables where I'm sure he will have a good stock of FL, where I will see the Stugs first hand, and give my comments here sometime after the show.

I'll be with my Lady & Grandson and look foward with meeting anyone here that may be attending the show. Anyone here will know me by my Avitar here, a Distinctive Unit Insignia Pin of the 9th Engineer Command, ( IXEC ) on my hat so you can either say hi or run the other way

I think it would be really if the Tree Frog made an enamel lapel pin of there logo so people could see the forums membership at shows and such

I'm not trying to highjack the thread here, just trying to break some tension

P.S. I've already pre-ordered the Stug myself.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Warrior]

There is a TS show here in Massachusetts, the NNTTS Show, Oct.25th. George from MMTS will be one of approximately 100 vendor tables where I'm sure he will have a good stock of FL, where I will see the Stugs first hand, and give my comments here sometime after the show.

I'll be with my Lady & Grandson and look foward with meeting anyone here that may be attending the show. Anyone here will know me by my Avitar here, a Distinctive Unit Insignia Pin of the 9th Engineer Command, ( IXEC ) on my hat so you can either say hi or run the other way

I think it would be really if the Tree Frog made an enamel lapel pin of there logo so people could see the forums membership at shows and such

I'm not trying to highjack the thread here, just trying to break some tension

P.S. I've already pre-ordered the Stug myself.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul,
Several forum members usually attend the show; the Lt, Fishhead, Bill from New Hampshire (hope you can make it Bill, it was nice to see you there in the last time), myself plus another former member who's a great guy, Fred who went by the handle boot51, so I look forward to seeing you at the show.................

 

[Steven Chong]

@Steven Chong

Steven, I have actually a question for you, especially after re-reading your original post over and over again.

Having seen the Stug in person and with all the "criticisms" that you have laid out, why did you actually buy it? It is for sure not cheap and is according to your review not perfect...so why? Is it because of the winterketten? Or because it looks good? Or because of both? Or because of...

You know this is what do not really get out of your post. You are the first one buying it because you SAW it - all of us bought/ordered it just seeing it from the photos. Yet I lack the enthusiasm...

What excited you about it to the point buying it and encouraging others, who have not seen it in person, to buy it?

Would appreciate your comments on this...

Thanks in advance.

Dear SteveDavid,

I went to George Guerriero's rooms at the Chicago Show as soon as it opened with the specific intent of inspecting the Stug and WWII figures before making a buying decision. After asking for permission from George, I spent about 10 minutes inspecting the Panzer Grey Stug, holding it by the manufacturer's suggested method of placing fingers into the two open hatches, which are fixed open. The first thing I noticed was how light the vehicle was. I tapped on the hull and heard a resin or plastic sound, revealing the general nature of material it was constructed from and also the fact that the hull was hollow. At the time, I wondered if the hull was assembled from separate pieces (top and bottom) like a 1/35 model and not a single cast piece. I noticed the winterketten, which I will again point out is a first in this industry, and carefully touched them to see if they would be a future breakage problem. I found that the tracks are made of a flexible plastic that allowed the winterketten to slightly flex. Next, I noticed that the engine grills were photo etched pieces, and that the equipment typically found on a German tank was separately added detail pieces. The paint work is similar to K&C in that it does not have the heavy weathering found on Figarti vehicles, though the paint is less bright and more matt. The insignia and markings were crisp.

Next, I carefully inspected the figures that come with the Stug for 5 minutes, and personally thought something was off. I looked at the other 1st Legion WWII figures on display, especially the standing figures, and finally concluded (PERSONAL OPINION) that the legs were not in proportion to the trunk and head of the figure. This is my subjective personal opinion of these figures, which I want to point out is simply one opinion as others disagree with it. However, I will state that this prevented me from buying all the WWII figures as I originally intended, especially given the price point. This is my own buying decision and hopefully others will not feel the need to question my opinion. Collect what you like.

Now, I liked the overall appearance of the tank and especially the winterketten, but my thoughts on the figures caused me to think about a purchase for another 5 minutes before finally concluding I would purchase the Stug because of the vehicle, not the figures. I also have no intention of displaying it together with other WWII pieces I own so I personally do not have an issue with the scale. After making this decision, I spent another 10 minutes trying to decide whether to get the panzer grey Stug or the tan one, especially after I realized that the tan Stug had different features. The tan Stug does not have the winterketten, and has extra armor in the front and on the gun mantle. The rear deck also has a different configuration than the panzer grey with the mid-war brackets added to Stugs for storage. Though I liked the paint color and storage brackets on the tan Stug slightly better, I ultimately choose the panzer grey Stug because of the winterketten.

Hope this helps.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Hello All!
I think I have mentioned that I was in George's room and that I picked up the new First Legion vehicle and looked it over.
It looked very much like a vehicle I built some years ago as a 1/35th scale model... and that impressed me. Take a look at the images of the product posted earlier on this thread. I have no vested interest in promoting 1t Legion or any of their products, so please read my comments as a the perspective of a professional model maker.

It is obvious that there was some investment in research and design in this vehicle, and a good decision to use superior materials for accuracy and durability. That is not always the case in an industry where the runs are small and the investment in research and design is often nothing more than purchasing a kit from a parallel hobby and scaling it up or down. This can often include replicating scaling errors and historical inaccuracies.

As I have stated on my own thread before, Urethane resin is a superior material for duplication to Polyester resin. I have personally worked with both and there is no doubt to me.
It simply does not have the same shrinkage issues that Polyester resin with inert fillers does. This latter material is often referred to as Polystone in our industry and although it is economical to use, it has problems that are in some case unacceptable to me as a model maker.

As far as the weight of a vehicle... Increased weight is a shipping nightmare and a real disadvantage to the replication of realistic suspension systems. I personally would always elect to use a lightweight material if it will be durable and will duplicate fine details.

My Diecast Minichamps Panther was a well designed model that used materials with significant weight. To my surprise the suspension has suffered from the weight of the upper body and as a result seems to represent a vehicle with the torsion bars compromised or broken.
This is one example where the increased weight had a negative side effect.

I think we need to be thoughtful when evaluating new products. If the materials used are somehow different than we might expect, then we should research them and decide if it is bringing us a more detailed and accurate product. If so then we should embrace it.

As new materials are developed in the future that might be useful in model making, we will have to make new evaluations too.

It appears that the traditional scale model disciplines are now starting to overlap the traditional toy soldier philosophies in some areas of the market. As with any change there will be an adjustment period.

All the Best!

Ken Osen
Hudson & Allen Studio

What a pleasantly thoughtful and helpful post; one of your best Ken.

 

[aujj65]

Hello All!
I think I have mentioned that I was in George's room and that I picked up the new First Legion vehicle and looked it over.
It looked very much like a vehicle I built some years ago as a 1/35th scale model... and that impressed me. Take a look at the images of the product posted earlier on this thread. I have no vested interest in promoting 1t Legion or any of their products, so please read my comments as a the perspective of a professional model maker.

It is obvious that there was some investment in research and design in this vehicle, and a good decision to use superior materials for accuracy and durability. That is not always the case in an industry where the runs are small and the investment in research and design is often nothing more than purchasing a kit from a parallel hobby and scaling it up or down. This can often include replicating scaling errors and historical inaccuracies.

As I have stated on my own thread before, Urethane resin is a superior material for duplication to Polyester resin. I have personally worked with both and there is no doubt to me.
It simply does not have the same shrinkage issues that Polyester resin with inert fillers does. This latter material is often referred to as Polystone in our industry and although it is economical to use, it has problems that are in some case unacceptable to me as a model maker.

As far as the weight of a vehicle... Increased weight is a shipping nightmare and a real disadvantage to the replication of realistic suspension systems. I personally would always elect to use a lightweight material if it will be durable and will duplicate fine details.

My Diecast Minichamps Panther was a well designed model that used materials with significant weight. To my surprise the suspension has suffered from the weight of the upper body and as a result seems to represent a vehicle with the torsion bars compromised or broken.
This is one example where the increased weight had a negative side effect.

I think we need to be thoughtful when evaluating new products. If the materials used are somehow different than we might expect, then we should research them and decide if it is bringing us a more detailed and accurate product. If so then we should embrace it.

As new materials are developed in the future that might be useful in model making, we will have to make new evaluations too.

It appears that the traditional scale model disciplines are now starting to overlap the traditional toy soldier philosophies in some areas of the market. As with any change there will be an adjustment period.

All the Best!

Ken Osen
Hudson & Allen Studio

What a pleasantly thoughtful and helpful post; one of your best Ken.

It is indeed and IMHO one of the best on the forum recently.

Jeff

 

[SteveDavid]

Hello All!
I think I have mentioned that I was in George's room and that I picked up the new First Legion vehicle and looked it over.
It looked very much like a vehicle I built some years ago as a 1/35th scale model... and that impressed me. Take a look at the images of the product posted earlier on this thread. I have no vested interest in promoting 1t Legion or any of their products, so please read my comments as a the perspective of a professional model maker.

It is obvious that there was some investment in research and design in this vehicle, and a good decision to use superior materials for accuracy and durability. That is not always the case in an industry where the runs are small and the investment in research and design is often nothing more than purchasing a kit from a parallel hobby and scaling it up or down. This can often include replicating scaling errors and historical inaccuracies.

As I have stated on my own thread before, Urethane resin is a superior material for duplication to Polyester resin. I have personally worked with both and there is no doubt to me.
It simply does not have the same shrinkage issues that Polyester resin with inert fillers does. This latter material is often referred to as Polystone in our industry and although it is economical to use, it has problems that are in some case unacceptable to me as a model maker.

As far as the weight of a vehicle... Increased weight is a shipping nightmare and a real disadvantage to the replication of realistic suspension systems. I personally would always elect to use a lightweight material if it will be durable and will duplicate fine details.

My Diecast Minichamps Panther was a well designed model that used materials with significant weight. To my surprise the suspension has suffered from the weight of the upper body and as a result seems to represent a vehicle with the torsion bars compromised or broken.
This is one example where the increased weight had a negative side effect.

I think we need to be thoughtful when evaluating new products. If the materials used are somehow different than we might expect, then we should research them and decide if it is bringing us a more detailed and accurate product. If so then we should embrace it.

As new materials are developed in the future that might be useful in model making, we will have to make new evaluations too.

It appears that the traditional scale model disciplines are now starting to overlap the traditional toy soldier philosophies in some areas of the market. As with any change there will be an adjustment period.

All the Best!

Ken Osen
Hudson & Allen Studio

Ken, thank you!

This is one of the smartest posts I have ever read!

I was looking through a book on Sheperd Paine yesterday and the StuG looks very much like many of the beautiful models that Paine was showing in his dioramas. Just not the same league so difficult to compare to others products.

Again, intelligent post and good to see that plastic is not dead then!

 

[SteveDavid]

Dear SteveDavid,

I went to George Guerriero's rooms at the Chicago Show as soon as it opened with the specific intent of inspecting the Stug and WWII figures before making a buying decision. After asking for permission from George, I spent about 10 minutes inspecting the Panzer Grey Stug, holding it by the manufacturer's suggested method of placing fingers into the two open hatches, which are fixed open. The first thing I noticed was how light the vehicle was. I tapped on the hull and heard a resin or plastic sound, revealing the general nature of material it was constructed from and also the fact that the hull was hollow. At the time, I wondered if the hull was assembled from separate pieces (top and bottom) like a 1/35 model and not a single cast piece. I noticed the winterketten, which I will again point out is a first in this industry, and carefully touched them to see if they would be a future breakage problem. I found that the tracks are made of a flexible plastic that allowed the winterketten to slightly flex. Next, I noticed that the engine grills were photo etched pieces, and that the equipment typically found on a German tank was separately added detail pieces. The paint work is similar to K&C in that it does not have the heavy weathering found on Figarti vehicles, though the paint is less bright and more matt. The insignia and markings were crisp.

Next, I carefully inspected the figures that come with the Stug for 5 minutes, and personally thought something was off. I looked at the other 1st Legion WWII figures on display, especially the standing figures, and finally concluded (PERSONAL OPINION) that the legs were not in proportion to the trunk and head of the figure. This is my subjective personal opinion of these figures, which I want to point out is simply one opinion as others disagree with it. However, I will state that this prevented me from buying all the WWII figures as I originally intended, especially given the price point. This is my own buying decision and hopefully others will not feel the need to question my opinion. Collect what you like.

Now, I liked the overall appearance of the tank and especially the winterketten, but my thoughts on the figures caused me to think about a purchase for another 5 minutes before finally concluding I would purchase the Stug because of the vehicle, not the figures. I also have no intention of displaying it together with other WWII pieces I own so I personally do not have an issue with the scale. After making this decision, I spent another 10 minutes trying to decide whether to get the panzer grey Stug or the tan one, especially after I realized that the tan Stug had different features. The tan Stug does not have the winterketten, and has extra armor in the front and on the gun mantle. The rear deck also has a different configuration than the panzer grey with the mid-war brackets added to Stugs for storage. Though I liked the paint color and storage brackets on the tan Stug slightly better, I ultimately choose the panzer grey Stug because of the winterketten.

Hope this helps.

Steven thank you very much for this reply.

A lot of thought went into your purchase I see.

Re the tank crew, I will see for myself when I get the Stugs and won't miss to revert with my point of view.

Regards

 

[Vezzolf]

There is a TS show here in Massachusetts, the NNTTS Show, Oct.25th. George from MMTS will be one of approximately 100 vendor tables where I'm sure he will have a good stock of FL, where I will see the Stugs first hand, and give my comments here sometime after the show.

I'll be with my Lady & Grandson and look foward with meeting anyone here that may be attending the show. Anyone here will know me by my Avitar here, a Distinctive Unit Insignia Pin of the 9th Engineer Command, ( IXEC ) on my hat so you can either say hi or run the other way

I think it would be really if the Tree Frog made an enamel lapel pin of there logo so people could see the forums membership at shows and such

I'm not trying to highjack the thread here, just trying to break some tension

P.S. I've already pre-ordered the Stug myself.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul, Where in Mass is this toy soldier show......do you know where I canget more info on it......Is there an admission fee?.....Thankyou Frank

 

[fmethorst]

I have been following this thread with interest. It started out a little shakey but has since settled down to good discussion. Since I don't have my StuG yet I have kept to the sidelines but I can comment on a couple things from the pictures.

Factory fresh paint: From the perspective of RAL7021 "Dunkelgrau" the color on the grey StuG is a long way from factory fresh. RAL7021 was very dark when new. While dust is a primary agent for making paint look lighter the color itself would fade over time due to exposure to the elements/sun etc. From the pictures both StuGs look well "dusted" as one would expect operating in southern Russia and an urban environment.

Here are some pictures of what RAL7021 looked like when it really was factory fresh. Compare the color of the vehicle with the Balkenkreuz which we know is black. You can also see in spots the paint appears to be semi matt rather than full matt.

StuG:

Panzer III

As for the figures. While I don't have these ones yet they look appropriately proportioned in the pictures. If the figures I already own are any indication proportion is an area FL does well in. How the figures compare to the vehicle is also important. I have looked an many pictures of StuGs and as a rough rule of thumb I have noticed that the eyes of an average man roughly line up with the center of the balkenkreuz. This is also approximately the height of the main gun.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I have been following this thread with interest. It started out a little shakey but has since settled down to good discussion. Since I don't have my StuG yet I have kept to the sidelines but I can comment on a couple things from the pictures.

Factory fresh paint: From the perspective of RAL7021 "Dunkelgrau" the color on the grey StuG is a long way from factory fresh. RAL7021 was very dark when new. While dust is a primary agent for making paint look lighter the color itself would fade over time due to exposure to the elements/sun etc. From the pictures both StuGs look well "dusted" as one would expect operating in southern Russia and an urban environment.

Here are some pictures of what RAL7021 looked like when it really was factory fresh. Compare the color of the vehicle with the Balkenkreuz which we know is black. You can also see in spots the paint appears to be semi matt rather than full matt.

StuG:

Panzer III

As for the figures. While I don't have these ones yet they look appropriately proportioned in the pictures. If the figures I already own are any indication proportion is an area FL does well in. How the figures compare to the vehicle is also important. I have looked an many pictures of StuGs and as a rough rule of thumb I have noticed that the eyes of an average man roughly line up with the center of the balkenkreuz. This is also approximately the height of the main gun.

Nice set of photos. I saw the Stugs at the Chicago Show and the grey stug is noticeably lighter in colour than in these factory fresh photos. But I thought you were getting the desert camo version?

When I saw the Stugs, I don't remember any figures being close to them to compare the height of a figure to the height of the stug. When do you get yours?

I don't have any photos - the stugs were gone when I returned to George's room the next day to pick up my purchases and had my camera with me.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

Nice set of photos. I saw the Stugs at the Chicago Show and the grey stug is noticeably lighter in colour than in these factory fresh photos. But I thought you were getting the desert camo version?

When I saw the Stugs, I don't remember any figures being close to them to compare the height of a figure to the height of the stug. When do you get yours?

I don't have any photos - the stugs were gone when I returned to George's room the next day to pick up my purchases and had my camera with me.

Terry

Yes, I am getting the desert camo version to start. I was just responding to some of the comments regarding "factory fresh" paint. I don't expect to see it before well into December

 

[nasirkasmani]

excellent post frank.

 

[FirstLegion]

Yes, I am getting the desert camo version to start. I was just responding to some of the comments regarding "factory fresh" paint. I don't expect to see it before well into December

Just for the record, as we've discussed before, the tan isn't really a desert scheme. It's a tan color that was in use for a short period, but isn't the same as a desert scheme which would be lighter.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Just for the record, as we've discussed before, the tan isn't really a desert scheme. It's a tan color that was in use for a short period, but isn't the same as a desert scheme which would be lighter.

That is true, you did mention that before. But people at the Show were commonly referring to that stug as a desert colour, even though it isn't. And I am guilty of that too. I'll be sure to call it tan in any future reference to it.

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

That is true, you did mention that before. But people at the Show were commonly referring to that stug as a desert colour, even though it isn't. And I am guilty of that too. I'll be sure to call it tan in any future reference to it.

Terry

Actually, that's the problem with the tan color. There is really nothing to call it other than "the tan one." So, yes, it's easier to call it desert for lack of anything else.

I guess I only clarify that to leave it open should we ever decide to release an actual "desert" version of this tank (no current plans, but must leave all options open!).

Best,

Matt

 

[Spitfrnd]

....As for the figures. While I don't have these ones yet they look appropriately proportioned in the pictures. If the figures I already own are any indication proportion is an area FL does well in. How the figures compare to the vehicle is also important. I have looked an many pictures of StuGs and as a rough rule of thumb I have noticed that the eyes of an average man roughly line up with the center of the balkenkreuz. This is also approximately the height of the main gun.
...

I certainly agree that FL excels in proportion from all the Napoleonic ones I have.