Accuracy, It's a Puzzlement (1 Viewer)

[Phantom Warrior]

It's interesting. I don't find the examples of Jagdpanthers at El Alamein and King Tigers and Dunkirk to be a problem at all since in that case the problem is with the description of the vehicle rather than the vehicle itself. For instance BBG009 Elefant is in the Battle of the Bulge range even though they didn't exist there, or Normandy for that matter, yet the piece remains perfectly viable in an Italian or East Front scenario. This has more to do with the way K&C is forced to shoehorn its various releases into ranges rather than a problem with the piece itself.

More of a problem for me would be a RAL7021 "Dunkelgrau" King Tiger since there is no evidence to support such a piece. This goes for unit/tactical markings and numbering as well. Why make something up when using valid markings only enhances a piece. The latest King Tiger release (BBG016) was done quite well in my opinion. It features a late war factory paint scheme and a valid turret number of 313. The numeral is blue with yellow outline which implies 3./s.SS.Pz.Abt.501. We know that unit served in the Bulge battle. What is so difficult about doing that consistently? The beauty of that piece is that tank ended up in Hungary so it is valid for eastern front scenarios as well.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that enhancing the accuracy does nothing to detract from a piece so I am unsure why there is resistance to it.

Agreed. A really excellent post. And that is where my Elefant and King Tiger are stationed - on the Eastern Front. And there is no good reason not to put the correct markings on an AFV and properly describe it's use.

K&C has quite a few German AFVs that actually fit best on the Eastern Front. I think Andy secretly wants to continue the Eastern Front series Dont you Andy

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I don't think theres any resistance to accuracy,we'd all like our Tanks to be 100% accurate,however there will always be something wrong by someones standards.And the absolute insistance that evreything is 100% spot on is fine,but good luck trying to build a collection!!

As for the King Tiger at Dunkirk,the fact remains it did not exist at that time and would be absurd in my view.

Rob

I think what was meant was that just because a King Tiger was described by K&C as being at Normandy, it probably is a valid model somewhere else at some other time. As Fmethorst said, the BBG009 Elefant is in the Battle of the Bulge range but fought almost entirely on the Eastern Front and a small amount in Italy - a perfectly valid model for those locations, but historically incorrect for Normandy or the Bulge. And it has no unit markings to be incorrect

Terry

 

[Rob]

Right let me get this straight!.A company releases a KT in classic Grey for the invasion of Poland,even though it never existed.However this is ok because you guys can use it somewhere else.However the same company then builds something that never existed at all and you would not buy it?.Arn't you sort of cancelling out your call for greater accuracy by buying the KT?.

Rob

 

[wayne556517]

Right let me get this straight!.A company releases a KT in classic Grey for the invasion of Poland,even though it never existed.However this is ok because you guys can use it somewhere else.However the same company then builds something that never existed at all and you would not buy it?.Arn't you sort of cancelling out your call for greater accuracy by buying the KT?.

Rob

WOW................lmao...

 

[Rob]

Don't worry Wayne,I was just interested in Frank and Terrys thoughts,this has been an interesting thread.

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Right let me get this straight!.A company releases a KT in classic Grey for the invasion of Poland,even though it never existed.However this is ok because you guys can use it somewhere else.However the same company then builds something that never existed at all and you would not buy it?.Arn't you sort of cancelling out your call for greater accuracy by buying the KT?.

Rob

Here is my opinion, and that is all it is, my opinion. I think Andy plays his marketing game and in response, I play my collecting game. He feels Normandy and Bulge pieces sell better than Eastern Front or Italian Front so by advertising a piece as Normandy or Bulge, it may mean better sales. And lots of collectors are happy to buy them as advertised - probably many more in that category than in the historically accurate camp, because for most collectors, they are just toy soldiers and fun to collect and display. A flashy unit symbol, even an incorrect one is better to them than none at all. So if K&C makes an AFV and says it is Normandy or Bulge, but it is almost perfectly done for the Eastern Front or Italy, I have no trouble putting it in the correct theatre. If the unit symbol is wrong, I am sure I could buy 1/35 scale decals of the correct unit and rebadge the AFV, but I don't go that far.

As far as I know, K&C has not done an AFV so incorrectly, it didn't fit into one of the ranges I collect. When I say I have assembled a large German Eastern Front contingent, I am serious. Other collectors are more particular. I wish that K&C would badge all of their AFVs correctly and not just some of them.

As for AFVs that really never existed, like the Maus, there are collectors who would buy a model of that prototype. Dragon has made several Maus in 1/72 and they sold.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Right let me get this straight!.A company releases a KT in classic Grey for the invasion of Poland,even though it never existed.However this is ok because you guys can use it somewhere else.However the same company then builds something that never existed at all and you would not buy it?.Arn't you sort of cancelling out your call for greater accuracy by buying the KT?.

Rob

Actually, a KT in grey would not work in any theatre so I would not buy it. But an early production grey Tiger would be a great hit.

Terry

 

[Rob]

Here is my opinion, and that is all it is, my opinion. I think Andy plays his marketing game and in response, I play my collecting game. He feels Normandy and Bulge pieces sell better than Eastern Front or Italian Front so by advertising a piece as Normandy or Bulge, it may mean better sales. And lots of collectors are happy to buy them as advertised - probably many more in that category than in the historically accurate camp, because for most collectors, they are just toy soldiers and fun to collect and display. A flashy unit symbol, even an incorrect one is better to them than none at all. So if K&C makes an AFV and says it is Normandy or Bulge, but it is almost perfectly done for the Eastern Front or Italy, I have no trouble putting it in the correct theatre. If the unit symbol is wrong, I am sure I could buy 1/35 scale decals of the correct unit and rebadge the AFV, but I don't go that far.

As far as I know, K&C has not done an AFV so incorrectly, it didn't fit into one of the ranges I collect. When I say I have assembled a large German Eastern Front contingent, I am serious.

As for AFVs that really never existed, like the Maus, there are collectors who would buy a model of that prototype. Dragon has made several Maus in 1/72 and they sold.

Terry

Thats a good point.For me the appeal with K&C is the style and accuracy mixed together,I still think they are the best on the market.

As we've said before its all down to what each of us will and won't collect,we have speculated about fantasy realeses such as Hetzer's at Tobruk, but I cannot honestly see any of the big producers making this sort of error.They all do their research beforehand.

Although I did recently here of a total fabrication of an AFV from one of the main producers, 'The Canadian Sherman that got Wittman'

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Thats a good point.For me the appeal with K&C is the style and accuracy mixed together,I still think they are the best on the market.

As we've said before its all down to what each of us will and won't collect,we have speculated about fantasy realeses such as Hetzer's at Tobruk, but I cannot honestly see any of the big producers making this sort of error.They all do their research beforehand.

Although I did recently here of a total fabrication of an AFV from one of the main producers, 'The Canadian Sherman that got Wittman'

Rob

If it was badged for the Quebec Sherbrooks, the tank that actually got Wittmann, I would definitely buy it.

Terry

 

[Louis Badolato]

You know, I brought up this issue with Andy at the OTSN, and Andy had a very interesting response. He basically said that he operates theatrically, like John Ford, the director. He mentioned an anecdote where an expert on 19th Century U.S. Cavalry hired as a consultant on one of Ford's famous westerns (I think it was "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon") told Ford that the Cavalry didn't wear uniforms anything like the ones created by the costume department for the film to Ford's specifications. Ford responded "well, they should have, my uniforms look better" and stuck with the costumes he created.

Andy exercises artistic license, to make figures and vehicles he thinks will sell, even if they are not 100% historically accurate. When I pointed out that people have been complaining about the inaccuracies, he responded that on this forum, there are about 10 people who have both enough knowledge & enough concern to actually call him on it, but he sells thousands of each set. His response to the 10 out of 2000 collectors who complain, "buy what you like. If you don't like it, don't buy it."

Frankly, I am one of the other 1900+ people who lack the knowwledge to know what is inaccurate, and, frankly, am more concerned with what looks cool than with 100% historical accuracy. I would prefer 100% historical accuracy if I could get it, but I will buy those figures and vehicles that I like and want to display, even if they come from the wrong theater of the war, or have the wrong camo scheme, because, for the most part, if I don't know enough to catch the error, 99% of the visitors to my display sure won't.

 

[Rob]

You know, I brought up this issue with Andy at the OTSN, and Andy had a very interesting response. He basically said that he operates theatrically, like John Ford, the director. He mentioned an anecdote where an expert on 19th Century U.S. Cavalry hired as a consultant on one of Ford's famous westerns (I think it was "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon") told Ford that the Cavalry didn't wear uniforms anything like the ones created by the costume department for the film to Ford's specifications. Ford responded "well, they should have, my uniforms look better" and stuck with the costumes he created.

Andy exercises artistic license, to make figures and vehicles he thinks will sell, even if they are not 100% historically accurate. When I pointed out that people have been complaining about the inaccuracies, he responded that on this forum, there are about 10 people who have both enough knowledge & enough concern to actually call him on it, but he sells thousands of each set. His response to the 10 out of 2000 collectors who complain, "buy what you like. If you don't like it, don't buy it."

Frankly, I am one of the other 1900+ people who lack the knowwledge to know what is inaccurate, and, frankly, am more concerned with what looks cool than with 100% historical accuracy. I would prefer 100% historical accuracy if I could get it, but I will buy those figures and vehicles that I like and want to display, even if they come from the wrong theater of the war, or have the wrong camo scheme, because, for the most part, if I don't know enough to catch the error, 99% of the visitors to my display sure won't.

Good post Louis.

If it was badged for the Quebec Sherbrooks, the tank that actually got Wittmann, I would definitely buy it.

Terry

Bad post Terry

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

You know, I brought up this issue with Andy at the OTSN, and Andy had a very interesting response. He basically said that he operates theatrically, like John Ford, the director. He mentioned an anecdote where an expert on 19th Century U.S. Cavalry hired as a consultant on one of Ford's famous westerns (I think it was "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon") told Ford that the Cavalry didn't wear uniforms anything like the ones created by the costume department for the film to Ford's specifications. Ford responded "well, they should have, my uniforms look better" and stuck with the costumes he created.

Andy exercises artistic license, to make figures and vehicles he thinks will sell, even if they are not 100% historically accurate. When I pointed out that people have been complaining about the inaccuracies, he responded that on this forum, there are about 10 people who have both enough knowledge & enough concern to actually call him on it, but he sells thousands of each set. His response to the 10 out of 2000 collectors who complain, "buy what you like. If you don't like it, don't buy it."

Frankly, I am one of the other 1900+ people who lack the knowwledge to know what is inaccurate, and, frankly, am more concerned with what looks cool than with 100% historical accuracy. I would prefer 100% historical accuracy if I could get it, but I will buy those figures and vehicles that I like and want to display, even if they come from the wrong theater of the war, or have the wrong camo scheme, because, for the most part, if I don't know enough to catch the error, 99% of the visitors to my display sure won't.

Exactly my point. And even though I think I catch most of these historical inconsistencies, they are not severe enough for me to ruin my enjoyment of the excellent AFVs produced by K&C. And once I have bought one, I can place it wherever I like. As I said, I can't remember one AFV that I wanted but wouldn't buy because it was too wrong.


Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Good post Louis.



Bad post Terry

Rob

You obviously mean "bad post" as in mischevious and not as in inaccurate. Go Canucks

Terry

 

[Rob]

You obviously mean "bad post" as in mischevious and not as in inaccurate. Go Canucks

Terry

MY MISTAKE,INACCURATE!!!

 

[fmethorst]

Right let me get this straight!.A company releases a KT in classic Grey for the invasion of Poland,even though it never existed.However this is ok because you guys can use it somewhere else.However the same company then builds something that never existed at all and you would not buy it?.Arn't you sort of cancelling out your call for greater accuracy by buying the KT?.

Rob

If you go back and re-read my post you will see that a grey KT is not OK. A camo KT with appropriate markings placed in the Fields of Battle range, however, could be redeployed to somewhere more appropriate.

 

[Rob]

If you go back and re-read my post you will see that a grey KT is not OK. A camo KT with appropriate markings placed in the Fields of Battle range, however, could be redeployed to somewhere more appropriate.

Sorry Frank I didn't mean you said a Grey version,I meant if one was released anyway.

Rob

 

[nasirkasmani]

Sorry Frank I didn't mean you said a Grey version,I meant if one was released anyway.

Rob

the question is Rob, will you buy a pink tank?

 

[Rob]

I'm going to have to say no to that one Nasir!

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

the question is Rob, will you buy a pink tank?

Wraith has the exclusive right to pink AFVs, except for the early desert versions which actually were pink.

Terry

 

[Rob]

Wraith has the exclusive right to pink AFVs, except for the early desert versions which actually were pink.

Terry

I don't think we should judge our friend Simon on here,we all collect for different reasons!

Rob