Accuracy, It's a Puzzlement (2 Viewers)

forlornhoper said:
“Each of them has been designed, sculpted, cast and hand-painted with incredible attention to historical detail and military accuracy.” It seems clear that a "Growing " number of collectors are having some difficulty in realising the accuracy of this quotation or is it a mission statement of future intensions? K&C products are not "Cheap" and they are seemingly regarded by many as a "Sound Investment" and all this without "Accuracy" ???,would their "Values" increase if there was a higher degree of accuracy? or do most collectors not interest themselves in "Values" and "Accuracy",and buy them for the hours and hours of sheer enjoyment they bring .
Click to expand...
“Each of them has been designed, sculpted, cast and hand-painted with incredible attention to historical detail and military accuracy.”

Not exactly true in the case of the 'Normandy' 251/22.It has a 'Heer' number plate,A 4th SS 'Poltzei' Divisional sign,(this unit was not in Normandy), Panzergrenadier Battalion tactical markings (these vehicles weren't assigned to Panzergrenadier Battalions) and a Heer crew in Tank/Assault gun uniforms.Of course all of these are overshadowed by the fact that this type vehicle did not serve in Normandy.
Not exactly historically accurate.
Jeff
 
damian said:
This hobby is called toy soldiers. It started off when lead was banned and hollow casting stopped.So the old WB stuff suddenly became collectible. The New Old Toy Soldier industry was pioneered by the Scruby's and others whose intention was to make toys that were compatible with the WB hollowcast figures. As things progressed so the New Old Toy Soldier changed. Initially he was still a glossy toy. Trophy, Marlborough, Steadfast etc were definitely in the toy side of things.

Military modelling was by and large a separate hobby. It had it's own publications like "Military Modelling Magazine" Here accuracy was essential and vigorous debate was associated with all the models that were featured in the pages of that magazine. By the mid 1990's the military modelling crowd were noticing the toy soldier crowd and there was a two page feature each month in MM on new toy soldier releases. What K and C lead the way with was blurring the distinction between toy soldiers and military models. The old toy soldiers had not really embraced WWII. The focus was colonial and ceremonial stuff. K and C changed that around and today it is the colonial themes that are niche products not WWII. WWII with it's mass of photographs and information was always the main feature of the military modeller. As the modelling type collectors moved towards the toy soldier collector so accuracy issues became more and more important.
As I have said before the toy soldier industry is the victim of it's own success. It would appear that the demand for accuracy is not going to go away and I see no reason why it should. So the new frontier in toy soldiers is the accuracy one. Who is going to win that battle remains to be seen.
Click to expand...
I very much agree with this my friend with the exception that when my wife reviews the CC receipts I certainly tell her they are military miniatures.;):D I also don't quite think the industry is a victim but rather a beneficiary of the change in emphasis, as are those who collect them, whatever you call them.:cool:
 
damian said:
This hobby is called toy soldiers. It started off when lead was banned and hollow casting stopped.So the old WB stuff suddenly became collectible. The New Old Toy Soldier industry was pioneered by the Scruby's and others whose intention was to make toys that were compatible with the WB hollowcast figures. As things progressed so the New Old Toy Soldier changed. Initially he was still a glossy toy. Trophy, Marlborough, Steadfast etc were definitely in the toy side of things.

Military modelling was by and large a separate hobby. It had it's own publications like "Military Modelling Magazine" Here accuracy was essential and vigorous debate was associated with all the models that were featured in the pages of that magazine. By the mid 1990's the military modelling crowd were noticing the toy soldier crowd and there was a two page feature each month in MM on new toy soldier releases. What K and C lead the way with was blurring the distinction between toy soldiers and military models. The old toy soldiers had not really embraced WWII. The focus was colonial and ceremonial stuff. K and C changed that around and today it is the colonial themes that are niche products not WWII. WWII with it's mass of photographs and information was always the main feature of the military modeller. As the modelling type collectors moved towards the toy soldier collector so accuracy issues became more and more important.
As I have said before the toy soldier industry is the victim of it's own success. It would appear that the demand for accuracy is not going to go away and I see no reason why it should. So the new frontier in toy soldiers is the accuracy one. Who is going to win that battle remains to be seen.
Click to expand...

I remember those days! ;):cool:

Jeff
 
damian said:
This hobby is called toy soldiers. It started off when lead was banned and hollow casting stopped.So the old WB stuff suddenly became collectible. The New Old Toy Soldier industry was pioneered by the Scruby's and others whose intention was to make toys that were compatible with the WB hollowcast figures. As things progressed so the New Old Toy Soldier changed. Initially he was still a glossy toy. Trophy, Marlborough, Steadfast etc were definitely in the toy side of things.

Military modelling was by and large a separate hobby. It had it's own publications like "Military Modelling Magazine" Here accuracy was essential and vigorous debate was associated with all the models that were featured in the pages of that magazine. By the mid 1990's the military modelling crowd were noticing the toy soldier crowd and there was a two page feature each month in MM on new toy soldier releases. What K and C lead the way with was blurring the distinction between toy soldiers and military models. The old toy soldiers had not really embraced WWII. The focus was colonial and ceremonial stuff. K and C changed that around and today it is the colonial themes that are niche products not WWII. WWII with it's mass of photographs and information was always the main feature of the military modeller. As the modelling type collectors moved towards the toy soldier collector so accuracy issues became more and more important.
As I have said before the toy soldier industry is the victim of it's own success. It would appear that the demand for accuracy is not going to go away and I see no reason why it should. So the new frontier in toy soldiers is the accuracy one. Who is going to win that battle remains to be seen.
Click to expand...

Very good history lesson. :cool: The industry is still evloving and so is K&C. The past few days of discussions has shown that a growing number of collectors would like to have historically plausible AFVs where the equipment on the AFV, the unit designations, license plate numbers, etc. match the uniforms and historical description of the model. That does not take much more effort from what is already done in research. It is not rivet counting, but simply making a model consistent within itself and IMO should be the minimal acceptable level of accuracy.

When the description of the SdKfz 251/22 is written as .... On a personal order of Adolf Hitler in October 1944, he ordered the refitting of Ausf C and D SdKfz 251s to mount a Pak 40 gun for anti-tank use. Approximately 248 of these refits were produced between December 1944 and April 1945. Most were deployed to units fighting on the Eastern borders of Germany and beyond. This model shows the unit symbols and insigia of the xx Panzer Division with its modified Wolf's Hook symbol and Heer (HE) number plate. It is numbered XYZ (X Company, Y platoon, Zth tank) The uniforms are a mix of late war Heer uniforms. Two companies of 251/22 (approximately 12 AFVs) along with a company of jagdpanzers formed the anti-tank component of the Division. The 251/22s fought with the XX Panzer Division from approximately February 1945 until the end of the war.

With those elements in place, it is now more of a military miniature, and that is the level of accuracy I would like to see.

Terry
 
tullock said:
“Each of them has been designed, sculpted, cast and hand-painted with incredible attention to historical detail and military accuracy.”

Not exactly true in the case of the 'Normandy' 251/22.It has a 'Heer' number plate,A 4th SS 'Poltzei' Divisional sign,(this unit was not in Normandy), Panzergrenadier Battalion tactical markings (these vehicles weren't assigned to Panzergrenadier Battalions) and a Heer crew in Tank/Assault gun uniforms.Of course all of these are overshadowed by the fact that this type vehicle did not serve in Normandy.
Not exactly historically accurate.
Jeff
Click to expand...

Picky, Picky, Picky, :D but unfortunately also accurately described. :cool:

Terry
 
I've enjoyed following this thread.
As with any scale hobby, there always seems to be the tug-of-war between historical accuracy, what can be profitably mass-produced (this ain't no charity, as my cc statements will attest) and what will SELL.

Were I to want strict adherence to scale/blueprint/unit/color/era/battlefield/insignia etc...I'd go buy a kit and build it myself (with poor effect I might add).

But then, isn't it great if this is worst that can be said about this hobby ???
 
Accuracy has become in part what "YOU" believe it to be,if it looks "Accurate" to you then its conceivably "Accurate",until something or someone convinces you that it is infact "Inaccurate",does that then diminish the quality of the model and the manufacturer?.Perhaps manufacturers could improve their research methods inorder to reduce the "Inaccuracies",which would surely increase the interest in the hobby but even research can be subjective and open to intense scrutiny,indeed "Accuracy is a Puzzlement".
 
…buy them for the hours and hours of sheer enjoyment they bring .[/QUOTE said:
In the end I think I buy them for the reason quoted above. That is not to say that I do not want items to be accurate, but at the same time I am not going to scrutinize and dissect each and every piece right down to its description. For example when I was at Sierra Toy Soldier this weekend I looked at “MK063”. It is the Wounded Templar Set, and the description reads, “One Templar supports a seriously wounded other”. I was not about to look at it and think, “well, I don’t know if he is seriously wounded, he has a small scrape on his elbow and it looks like he is bleeding from his head, but a CT scan will probably reveal at best a low grade concussion, I do not think these injuries would qualify as seriously wounded, so I think I will skip this one”.
Click to expand...
 
Panzer ace said:
In the end I think I buy them for the reason quoted above. That is not to say that I do not want items to be accurate, but at the same time I am not going to scrutinize and dissect each and every piece right down to its description. For example when I was at Sierra Toy Soldier this weekend I looked at “MK063”. It is the Wounded Templar Set, and the description reads, “One Templar supports a seriously wounded other”. I was not about to look at it and think, “well, I don’t know if he is seriously wounded, he has a small scrape on his elbow and it looks like he is bleeding from his head, but a CT scan will probably reveal at best a low grade concussion, I do not think these injuries would qualify as seriously wounded, so I think I will skip this one”.
Click to expand...

That is not the same as putting incorrect unit markings on AFVs when most are well known or ascribing a weapon to an area where it was not used..

Terry
 
Spitfrnd said:
OK, I'll bite. How would you determine the extent of his injuries?:confused::)
Click to expand...

LOL, just when I needed a laugh, I read your post. I am not too sure on that one, but I tend to think the crusader in MK050 is seriously wounded or as K&C put it: "A victorious Saracen and an unfortunate Crusader opponent." I love the 'unfortunate' part. I tend to think anyone who has been beheaded is unfortunate.
 
Panzer ace said:
In the end I think I buy them for the reason quoted above. That is not to say that I do not want items to be accurate, but at the same time I am not going to scrutinize and dissect each and every piece right down to its description. For example when I was at Sierra Toy Soldier this weekend I looked at “MK063”. It is the Wounded Templar Set, and the description reads, “One Templar supports a seriously wounded other”. I was not about to look at it and think, “well, I don’t know if he is seriously wounded, he has a small scrape on his elbow and it looks like he is bleeding from his head, but a CT scan will probably reveal at best a low grade concussion, I do not think these injuries would qualify as seriously wounded, so I think I will skip this one”.
Click to expand...

Maybe not by todays standards. I do think though that your reasons are splitting hairs so to speak.
 
thebritfarmer said:
Maybe not by todays standards. I do think though that your reasons are splitting hairs so to speak.
Click to expand...

I was merely pointing out that verbal descriptions are subject to quite a bit of analysis and interpretation. The idea that K&C’s phrase, “Each of them has been designed, sculpted, cast and hand-painted with incredible attention to historical detail and military accuracy”, should be impugned does not make sense to me. Furthermore the suggestion that it indicates that they are promising perfection is not true. The definition alone of the word accuracy according to the notable Princeton University Dictionary is: the quality of being near to the true value. The key word in the definition is 'near'.
 
Panzer ace said:
In the end I think I buy them for the reason quoted above. That is not to say that I do not want items to be accurate, but at the same time I am not going to scrutinize and dissect each and every piece right down to its description. For example when I was at Sierra Toy Soldier this weekend I looked at “MK063”. It is the Wounded Templar Set, and the description reads, “One Templar supports a seriously wounded other”. I was not about to look at it and think, “well, I don’t know if he is seriously wounded, he has a small scrape on his elbow and it looks like he is bleeding from his head, but a CT scan will probably reveal at best a low grade concussion, I do not think these injuries would qualify as seriously wounded, so I think I will skip this one”.
Click to expand...
I don't think they had 64 slice CT back then.:D:D
 
Panzer ace said:
I was merely pointing out that verbal descriptions are subject to quite a bit of analysis and interpretation. The idea that K&C’s phrase, “Each of them has been designed, sculpted, cast and hand-painted with incredible attention to historical detail and military accuracy”, should be impugned does not make sense to me. Furthermore the suggestion that it indicates that they are promising perfection is not true. The definition alone of the word accuracy according to the notable Princeton University Dictionary is: the quality of being near to the true value. The key word in the definition is 'near'.
Click to expand...
I think one should be careful with that useage. Accuracy is the quality of being accurate, which is commonly defined as "in exact or careful conformity to truth, or to some standard of requirement, the result of care or pains; free from failure, error, or defect; exact; as, an accurate calculator; an accurate measure; accurate expression, knowledge, etc." It is true that accuracy may be qualified by degrees, as in more accurate or most accurate, but used alone it is most often taken to conote a fair degree of precision or correctness. Notably, its frequently first listed synonyms are correct and exact. So if someone claims accuracy in something, especially with the qualifier "incredible attention...", I think it is not unreasonable to expect that it is rendered with all due care to insure it is correct.

Please note that I am not expressing any opinion on K&C here, only commenting on the expectations that may derive from the use of the word accuracy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 0, guests: 3)
Community platform by XenForo® © 2010-2024 XenForo Ltd.
Back
Top