ACW Union Headgear - The Wrong Cap (1 Viewer)

Dragoon

Dragoon

Command Sergeant Major
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Looks like the upcoming Union Cavalry figures are sporting kepis instead of forage caps. As much as I wanted to, I could find no examples of kepi caps being issued to the other ranks in the Union Army - only the flat topped forage caps. Curious why FL is putting kepis instead of forage caps on their Union troopers?
 
They look to me, to be closer to forage caps rather than a kepi. There is a little hint of a roll at the top of the cap where it should be flat, but it doesn't seem as pronounced as a true kepi. There is also the fact that crossed sabers on the forage caps would have been in the minority as it was in the Infantry. I am looking forward to the finished figures.
 
I don't know much about ACW uniforms but I do know from the Napoleonic pieces that they do their homework very thoroughly. If you have some doubt about a figure's gear, especially one yet to be released, I suggest you email Matt about it. He is very responsive and I have had a number of enlightening conversations about similar Napoleonic matters.;)
 
Well those are definitely kepis on the prototypes, and to be historically correct they need to be FORAGE CAPS w/ its distinct FLAT circular top.
KEPIS w/ the rolled rim around the top, in the Union Armies were worn by some officers and by some of the volunteer units that had a zouave or chasseur styled uniform.
I am very much looking forward to this new series, and hope this small error is corrected before the the final release.
 
Dragoon said:
Well those are definitely kepis on the prototypes, and to be historically correct they need to be FORAGE CAPS w/ its distinct FLAT circular top.
KEPIS w/ the rolled rim around the top, in the Union Armies were worn by some officers and by some of the volunteer units that had a zouave or chasseur styled uniform.
I am very much looking forward to this new series, and hope this small error is corrected before the the final release.
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Once again, whatever they are or are supposed to be I will leave to you ACW fanciers. However, if you are interested in this series, I strongly urge you to convey your concern by email to Matt at FL. You can use the email contact function in his member profile here or info@firstlegionltd.com

Bringing the issue up on the forums is interesting for the collectors but certainly should not be relied upon as a communication to the company about your issue.:)
 
Yes they do seem to be wearing kepis,but this doesn't necessarily make the figures incorrect.Although forage caps were the norm some cavalry units did recieve kepis.There is a famous LOC photo of troops of the 3rd Pennsylvania cavalry (taken in the vicinity of Brandy Station in 1863),which clearly shows the bulk of the troops wearing kepis.Another photo shows a trooper of Company D 7th Michigan cavalry in a kepi.So they do seem to have been worn to a certain extent.
Jeff
 
tullock said:
Yes they do seem to be wearing kepis,but this doesn't necessarily make the figures incorrect.Although forage caps were the norm some cavalry units did recieve kepis.There is a famous LOC photo of troops of the 3rd Pennsylvania cavalry (taken in the vicinity of Brandy Station in 1863),which clearly shows the bulk of the troops wearing kepis.Another photo shows a trooper of Company D 7th Michigan cavalry in a kepi.So they do seem to have been worn to a certain extent.
Jeff
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Thanks Jeff, thats good to know. The quality of FL's figures is so high, and the details so good, you just want everything to be right.
First Legions ACW series is going to be GREAT!
 
The Union cavalry units engaged on July 1 at Gettysburg were 1st Brigade (Gamble): 8th Illinois Cavalry, 8th New York Cavalry, 4 companies of 12th Illinois Cavalry, and 6 companies of 3rd Indiana Cavalry; 2nd Brigade (Devin): 6th NY Cavalry, 17th PA Cav, 9th NY Cav, and 2 companies of 3rd W Va Cavalry. I do not have info on their uniforms/hats but I would think there was a blend of both forage hat and kepis. Some more food for thought; according to the Federal ordnance returns the carbines in use by Federal cavalry at Gettysburg were: 4,724 Sharps, 1,387 Burnside carbines, 309 Smith carbines, 271 Gallagher carbines, and 208 Merril carbines - no Spencer carbines listed. The Gettysburg Nartional Park Service also lists no Spencer carbines in use. However the 5th MI and the 7th MI cavalry regiments (Custer) had 572 Spencer RIFLES (not carbines). Federal ordnance invoices show Spencer carbines first being purchased/issued in Sept-Oct 1863 time frame. Kepis and Spencers - oh well, after all they are just toy soldiers and they are beautifully done.
:) Mike
 
Newburyport, Massachusetts? Is that the plant or distributor? I'm only a few miles away.
 
Hi, haven't heard of any Matt's (FL) opinions on the Forum lately..
 
Jefman,

Bill was not referring to this thread but to a thread that since then got deleted...

Regards
 
"The Gettysburg National Park Service also lists no Spencer carbines in use. However the 5th MI and the 7th MI cavalry regiments (Custer) had 572 Spencer RIFLES (not carbines). "

bufordcavalry.jpg


These are nice but I understand that the Spencer cartridge boxes on some figures are post war and that when cavalry dismounted to fight on foot, the Guidon bearers stayed mounted. (Unless it was a "last stand")
 
Spitfrnd said:
Well unfortunately he got caught up in the bait placed by someone in your last FL thread.:(:confused:
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Bill,

Let's be fair here, regardless of what else happened in that thread, Matt broke the rules of the forum, he is treated like all of us when that happens. He made some very personal deroagatory comments toward another forum member.

That said, the whole situation is still very school yard like and it is dumb. People will continue to buy what they like on their own budgets and taste, I feel like no one is better than anyone else since all of it is art and subjective!

On a lighter note, back to setting up a durbar display!

TD
 
I don't know what he broke but I do know he had more than good cause Tom. I am not sure I would have not said some personal derogatory things to that forum member under the circumstances. It was an silly and inflammatory post, sometimes called bait. There should be consequences for such a post and one who makes one can hardly complain if he gets something bitting back. I guess I don't agree that "regardless" applies but that is hardly big news.

In any event it is nothing between us so let's just agree to let it go mate.;)
 
Spitfrnd said:
I don't know what he broke but I do know he had more than good cause Tom. I am not sure I would have not said some personal derogatory things to that forum member under the circumstances. It was an silly and inflammatory post, sometimes called bait. There should be consequences for such a post and one who makes one can hardly complain if he gets something bitting back. I guess I don't agree that "regardless" applies but that is hardly big news.

In any event it is nothing between us so let's just agree to let it go mate.;)
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Cannot help but notice there seems to be some inconsistency with handing out infractions in this case. Matt gets punished and put on moderated status for biting back at a critic, while another high profile and much beloved manufacturer seems to be immune from consequences for routinely and regularly ripping into forum members who have the gall to cross him.
 
I was able to find some time today to do some more research on the Federal cavalry arms & uniforms that were probably used/worn by Buford's cavalry at Gettysburg on July 1, 1863. In the Time Life book Echoes of Glory; Arms and Equipment of the Union, kepis were only listed as headgear for officers (pgs 178 & 179) where as forage caps were listed for both officers and enlisted men (pgs 180-183). In the Mort Kunstler painting depicting the 8th Illinois Cavalry (Gamble) on July 1, 1863 entitled "Hold at all Cost", the combatants are wearing forage caps. A 12th Illinois Cavalry (Gamble) ACW re-enactment group requires members to have forage caps and Smith carbines. I found a vintage photo of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry (Gamble) near Petersburg, VA in 1864 and all those in the photo were wearing forage caps. A 17th PA Cavalry (Devin) ACW re-enactment group requires members to have forage caps. I also found two 9th NY Cavalry (Devin) ACW re-enactment groups, Co B & Co M, both of which require members to have forage caps/bummers and either a Sharps or a Smith carbine. Also, for every three dismounted troopers that were engaged, a fourth would be behind the line holding the horses of those three - wouldn't that make a fantastic set.
:) Mike
 
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