Age of Collectors (2 Viewers)
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OzDigger
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Speaking of retirement money, I reckon I got lucky there. At the time I left a long term employer back in the 1990's the government then allowed people to cash in their accrued superannuation except for a relively small reserved amount. I decided to use most of my accrued super to pay off my mortgage. Not long after I did this the Australian government changed the rules so that super funds had to remain in the system until you reached a retirement age of at least 55 y/o, maybe more. Considering the cost of housing loan interest and crazy increases in house prices over the last ten years or so I think I made a wise decision. And having worked in finance for many years I had little faith in a bank not screwing up my retirement monies or ripping me off some how.
ucla1967
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When I retired I took my pension out in cash as an IRA Rollover so I didn't have to pay taxes on it. I promply saw my January 2001 retirement money and 401Ks drop by a third as the stock market went into freefall over next couple of years. However, it has recovered and then some by now, but I do believe I have a few more gray hairs now because of it.
We are fortunate enough to own 3 pieces of real estate in Southern California, two of which will be paid off in February. I remember putting $2800 down on our first home in Orange County, in 1973, which we now rent out. Boy if I only knew then what I know now. Never-the-less, not having 3 mortgages to pay will remove a big burden from us financially. More disposable income! The bad news is that I don't have anymore room left for additional toy soldiers.
We are fortunate enough to own 3 pieces of real estate in Southern California, two of which will be paid off in February. I remember putting $2800 down on our first home in Orange County, in 1973, which we now rent out. Boy if I only knew then what I know now. Never-the-less, not having 3 mortgages to pay will remove a big burden from us financially. More disposable income! The bad news is that I don't have anymore room left for additional toy soldiers.
Phalanx Toy Soldier
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Man, these threads have a way of deviating off course more than a C-47 whose compass is affected by a buried radioactive flying saucer in the arctic!
Started out being a consideration of how small (or big) of a percentage of toy soldier collecters were 'young'. Well, originally began as an age poll, then went to discussing how dominant the baby boomer generation was in the hobby, and perhaps why.
I'm still intrigued by the discussion about whether there are enough younger hobbiests to carry on after us oldsters have left the building.
Terry in Iowa
Started out being a consideration of how small (or big) of a percentage of toy soldier collecters were 'young'. Well, originally began as an age poll, then went to discussing how dominant the baby boomer generation was in the hobby, and perhaps why.
I'm still intrigued by the discussion about whether there are enough younger hobbiests to carry on after us oldsters have left the building.
Terry in Iowa
ucla1967
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Well, it really has evolved into how much disposable income the different age groups have to spend on toy soldiers and why. Seems perfectly logical to me. It still doesn't change the fact that there are far fewer younger collectors coming into the hobby compared to the older ones they need to be replacing. The internet, mobile phone, iPods, and computers in general have changed everything. The first movie my 33 year old son saw as a four year old was Star Wars. He collected Star Wars figures, but is not interested in Toy Soldiers and I have thousands he could have. He is also big into computer games---I have never played one. Times have changed; the toy soldier era has probably peaked. It is a mature market.
vandilay
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I suppose its almost impossible to answer that question,
It is such a niche hobby anyway,growing up with 2 older
brothers and friends etc I didnt know one single person
who collected or had a strong interest in toy soldiers.
Now with the internet being the main shopping portal
for a lot of collectors it would make it even harder to
gauge,selling on E bay etc is probably the best
way to gauge collector numbers [but this doesnt
give you their age of course]
The other question is what are the guys coming into
the hobby collecting ,I quite like the odd old lead set
to show where this hobby has come from,
But i wonder in years too come who will be buying
those old sets,
As the focus seems to have shifted to matte life like
poses to a certain degree.
It is such a niche hobby anyway,growing up with 2 older
brothers and friends etc I didnt know one single person
who collected or had a strong interest in toy soldiers.
Now with the internet being the main shopping portal
for a lot of collectors it would make it even harder to
gauge,selling on E bay etc is probably the best
way to gauge collector numbers [but this doesnt
give you their age of course]
The other question is what are the guys coming into
the hobby collecting ,I quite like the odd old lead set
to show where this hobby has come from,
But i wonder in years too come who will be buying
those old sets,
As the focus seems to have shifted to matte life like
poses to a certain degree.
Phalanx Toy Soldier
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Mike...
Sadly, that is my contention as well, and has been for lots of years now. Though disposable income has a significant amount to do with it, the far more relevant thing is exposure. During that hiatus period from the end of the Vietnam War until the mid-80s or later, there were no toy soldiers (in the US anyway) for kids to play with. When we were growing up, EVERY boy had his box of ARMYMEN, and hundreds of thousands of boomer boys found Marx playsets under their Christmas trees. Soldiers were available in every five and dime, every mom and pop toy store (also extinct) had playsets, bagged sets, accessories, whatever. It is no wonder that when that generation grew up, THEY were the ones to bring the hobby back into existence.
For guys born in between the late sixties and the early eighties -- there is no nostalgia factor in armymen/toy soldiers. The twenty-somethings and thirty-somethings may indeed actually have disposable income, but very little reason to spend it on soldiers. Then add in the technology boom for kids born in the last twenty years, and it explains why OTSN seems more like a retirement seminar -- in the main -- than it does a 'toy show'.
Terry in Iowa
Sadly, that is my contention as well, and has been for lots of years now. Though disposable income has a significant amount to do with it, the far more relevant thing is exposure. During that hiatus period from the end of the Vietnam War until the mid-80s or later, there were no toy soldiers (in the US anyway) for kids to play with. When we were growing up, EVERY boy had his box of ARMYMEN, and hundreds of thousands of boomer boys found Marx playsets under their Christmas trees. Soldiers were available in every five and dime, every mom and pop toy store (also extinct) had playsets, bagged sets, accessories, whatever. It is no wonder that when that generation grew up, THEY were the ones to bring the hobby back into existence.
For guys born in between the late sixties and the early eighties -- there is no nostalgia factor in armymen/toy soldiers. The twenty-somethings and thirty-somethings may indeed actually have disposable income, but very little reason to spend it on soldiers. Then add in the technology boom for kids born in the last twenty years, and it explains why OTSN seems more like a retirement seminar -- in the main -- than it does a 'toy show'.
Terry in Iowa
Being in my 50's. I have to agree with you, the next question is were is the saturation point?
How much product can this limited number of collector compile with the prolific K&C and all the other newbe's on the market?
I think we are in for a decline in prices on the secondary market, I see more and more bargains out there.
Ray
OzDigger
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I feel potential collectors in the younger age brackets are also more likely to have been influenced by political correctness in their formative years. I noted another thread about whether children should have toy guns to play with and I believe the same applies to soldier collecting. If you look in any toy store they still carry hundreds of toy soldiers but I wonder how many modern mums allow their children to buy these.
Phalanx Toy Soldier
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OxDigger...
Sometimes georgraphy makes all the difference. There may be lots of toy soldiers in all the toy stores in Australia, but the US is quite different in two ways. First, there are NOT lots of toy soldiers for sale here in toy stores...virtually none. Second, there are almost no toy stores at all either. All of the mom and pop stores, the privately owned toy stores, have gone the way of the dimestore...extinct. Now there are a few small chains, the one mega-box toy store and the super mega-box all purpose Mart. None of these carries toy soldiers regularly, or in any quantity or variety. They do have large inventories of action figures of all sorts, but apart from a couple of large brands -- FoV and Century 21, not much else. When Bill McMaster tried to work out his distribution deal with one retail chain and failed, and then DID get them into Toys R Us stores, the demand for his playsets didn't begin to equal the demand for the shelf space for other toys, and even that avenue for kids went away. Kids in the US face the proverbial chicken or egg scenario...even if they wanted to spend their dollars on toy soldiers at the neighborhood stores, there are no toy soldiers.
...and there are no toy soldiers because not nearly enough kids have ANY interest in using their money that way.
As to PC...that was the death of toy soldiers in the US post-VN war, and continued for a decade and a half. I sense NO political correctness problem with soldiers in this country nowadays...just an adolescent (and pre-adolescent) apathy towards them.
Terry
Sometimes georgraphy makes all the difference. There may be lots of toy soldiers in all the toy stores in Australia, but the US is quite different in two ways. First, there are NOT lots of toy soldiers for sale here in toy stores...virtually none. Second, there are almost no toy stores at all either. All of the mom and pop stores, the privately owned toy stores, have gone the way of the dimestore...extinct. Now there are a few small chains, the one mega-box toy store and the super mega-box all purpose Mart. None of these carries toy soldiers regularly, or in any quantity or variety. They do have large inventories of action figures of all sorts, but apart from a couple of large brands -- FoV and Century 21, not much else. When Bill McMaster tried to work out his distribution deal with one retail chain and failed, and then DID get them into Toys R Us stores, the demand for his playsets didn't begin to equal the demand for the shelf space for other toys, and even that avenue for kids went away. Kids in the US face the proverbial chicken or egg scenario...even if they wanted to spend their dollars on toy soldiers at the neighborhood stores, there are no toy soldiers.
...and there are no toy soldiers because not nearly enough kids have ANY interest in using their money that way.
As to PC...that was the death of toy soldiers in the US post-VN war, and continued for a decade and a half. I sense NO political correctness problem with soldiers in this country nowadays...just an adolescent (and pre-adolescent) apathy towards them.
Terry
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ucla1967
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The nostalgia factor is huge. Those of us who grew up with Marx sets from the Sears catalog (does it even exist anymore?) and Dimestore figures from Woolworths (gone) are the core of the hobby in numbers. The sixties anti-war toy movement coupled with the technological advances since then have changed younger peoples' interests---they just are not as interested in toy soldiers as the older generations were.
When I started collecting in 1991, Old Britains were very sought after by the guys who grew up in the 1920s and 30s. Many of these early sets went for very high prices which convinced me to avoid them and collect New Toy Soldiers which I could afford. Now, I don't see the same degree of interest in Old Britains that I though I was observing 15 years ago. Some of these collectors bought all the sets they were looking for and others passed on.
What has also changed is that King & Country has created a lot of interest in younger (20s, 30s, & 40s) collectors with highly detailed action poses that can be used in dioramas instead of the more basic, glossy marching figures I still love. This has brought new blood into the hobby, but in smaller numbers than the previous generations. It is possible that we will continue to have toy soldier collectors, but in a much more truncated form than before and with more limited, specialized interests.
I don't know if this trend can continue to support the number of manufacturers currently in the business. It certainly calls into question the viability of brick & mortar stores. The internet has become a very effective, low-cost sales channel. Nobody seems to be stating this but it also seems to me that attendance at the shows has gone down. There are certainly fewer dealers attending than in the past at some shows.
When I started collecting in 1991, Old Britains were very sought after by the guys who grew up in the 1920s and 30s. Many of these early sets went for very high prices which convinced me to avoid them and collect New Toy Soldiers which I could afford. Now, I don't see the same degree of interest in Old Britains that I though I was observing 15 years ago. Some of these collectors bought all the sets they were looking for and others passed on.
What has also changed is that King & Country has created a lot of interest in younger (20s, 30s, & 40s) collectors with highly detailed action poses that can be used in dioramas instead of the more basic, glossy marching figures I still love. This has brought new blood into the hobby, but in smaller numbers than the previous generations. It is possible that we will continue to have toy soldier collectors, but in a much more truncated form than before and with more limited, specialized interests.
I don't know if this trend can continue to support the number of manufacturers currently in the business. It certainly calls into question the viability of brick & mortar stores. The internet has become a very effective, low-cost sales channel. Nobody seems to be stating this but it also seems to me that attendance at the shows has gone down. There are certainly fewer dealers attending than in the past at some shows.
OzDigger
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Phalanx: Woolworths and it's variety store Big-W, is still well represented downunder and usually carries plastic soldiers as does K-Mart. Where I live, Southeast, Queensland we have a chain of stores called Toy World and some Mr Toys shops. These also have a good selection of plastic toy soldiers as well as kits etc.
Both of my boys (now 16 and 14) went through a Starwars stage and they also played with plastic toy soldiers. Of course they have moved on to computer/console games but the youngest has started a diecast car collection as he is into car movies such as Gone in 60 seconds, Tokyo Drift etc.
Dedicated diecast shops and soldier stores are now becoming rare downunder, but I feel their demise is more because of the competition from eBay together with high rents.
Both of my boys (now 16 and 14) went through a Starwars stage and they also played with plastic toy soldiers. Of course they have moved on to computer/console games but the youngest has started a diecast car collection as he is into car movies such as Gone in 60 seconds, Tokyo Drift etc.
Dedicated diecast shops and soldier stores are now becoming rare downunder, but I feel their demise is more because of the competition from eBay together with high rents.
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ucla1967
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I was refering to the toy soldier only brick & mortar stores. Two of the four we used to have in the area are now gone. We have general toy stores, Wal-Mart, and K-mart but they aren't quite the same IMO. Besides I have never liked the cheap bags of poorly made plastic toy soldiers these stores carry. We used to hold our noses at the made in Hong Kong stuff, but no more with K & C, Frontline, and others.
I've noticed and picked up several K&C sets and figures from e-bay this week at well below past values for out of production items and below retail for current production items. I believe it's because of folks saving there bucks for the upcoming big show, but what does that say about the number of consumers when focus on 1 show can vurtually shut down interest in the secondary market?
Ray
Ray
Phalanx Toy Soldier
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It doesn't say anything at all.
In the first place, there likely is no relationship between buying/selling on eBay and any toy soldier show...you just notice it now.
Much more to the point, timing is everything on eBay. One week a great item will tank, the next week it'll bring even more than normal. One day crummy stuff brings high prices, the next week a premium item finds no buyer. That's the was eBay has always worked. One day it is a buyer's market, the next day a seller's.
Please tell me that K&C folks are buying figures because they like them, enjoy them and collect them, and NOT because they seem like good INVESTMENTS.
Every item that sells for less than -- whatever -- turns out to be a GOOD thing for a collector trying to build his collection...yes?
Terry in Iowa
In the first place, there likely is no relationship between buying/selling on eBay and any toy soldier show...you just notice it now.
Much more to the point, timing is everything on eBay. One week a great item will tank, the next week it'll bring even more than normal. One day crummy stuff brings high prices, the next week a premium item finds no buyer. That's the was eBay has always worked. One day it is a buyer's market, the next day a seller's.
Please tell me that K&C folks are buying figures because they like them, enjoy them and collect them, and NOT because they seem like good INVESTMENTS.
Every item that sells for less than -- whatever -- turns out to be a GOOD thing for a collector trying to build his collection...yes?
Terry in Iowa
Njja
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Hi Ray a DD30 went off for $600 thats nearly double yes double what it has
brought before! I noticed a couple of foreign sellers which may be reason
prices seemed a little lower on a few items.
Njja
You both make valid points, However I would say Terry that it is exceedingly rare when a premium K&C set goes without a buyer. And as for the DD30 set for 600, well if I was the seller I would be a little nervous as the buyer was brand new with a zero feedback rating. As to foreign buyers and sellers, I think they have really been the top end buyers that have kept the prices high on older sets and there numbers are very limited.
I am in agreement with Terry, lower prices are good, it's like the argument for Wal-mart, how could lower prices be harmful?
I just think I'm coming around more and more to the argument Jazzeum has made strongly in the past about production numbers vs. collector numbers.
I don't want to belabor the point, I still collect because I love this.
If I'm not mistaken, I saw the same pattern last year. I will watch year to year going forward, since i can't make the show, maybe I will save my bucks and make the weeks before it an oppurtunty to buy sets at a bargain price!
Ray
Phalanx Toy Soldier
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Ray...
If there actually is a sell-off pattern prior to a toy soldier show, then that is the opportunity for shoppers, no doubt. I just wonder why guys who are serious about K&C (or any other line) would buy stuff, and then later sell it at a loss in order to buy other stuff. Are K&C figures really just a commodity. (I think I can safely say that I've never EVER sold anything out of my personal collection...only added to it.)
I've been doing eBay a very long time (you can look it up), and I say that it is always a bit of a crap shoot. For even the most premium of items in my areas of interest, the realized prices can vary by actually hundreds of dollars. Timing IS everything, with just a dollop of luck thrown in.
As a buyer, I always hope to hit at the time when other buyers are out to lunch. As a seller, I want EVERYONE to see my auctions and bid on them. How could it be any other way. Low prices ARE good for someone who really wants something, and are less good for someone who is trying to get rid of something unwanted. It is the place where 'supply and demand' meets 'right place at right time'.
I have to resist the comparison to WalMart. On eBay, in the toy soldier world and everywhere else, it comes down to the seller getting as much as he possibly can, and the buyer paying as little as he must. Neither price is 'fixed', and no one is hurt in the transaction. If anything, selling on eBay is exactly the OPPOSITE of shopping at WalMart...
...with one similarity though. In both cases, there is a high probability that the purchased product was made in China. (o;
Terry
If there actually is a sell-off pattern prior to a toy soldier show, then that is the opportunity for shoppers, no doubt. I just wonder why guys who are serious about K&C (or any other line) would buy stuff, and then later sell it at a loss in order to buy other stuff. Are K&C figures really just a commodity. (I think I can safely say that I've never EVER sold anything out of my personal collection...only added to it.)
I've been doing eBay a very long time (you can look it up), and I say that it is always a bit of a crap shoot. For even the most premium of items in my areas of interest, the realized prices can vary by actually hundreds of dollars. Timing IS everything, with just a dollop of luck thrown in.
As a buyer, I always hope to hit at the time when other buyers are out to lunch. As a seller, I want EVERYONE to see my auctions and bid on them. How could it be any other way. Low prices ARE good for someone who really wants something, and are less good for someone who is trying to get rid of something unwanted. It is the place where 'supply and demand' meets 'right place at right time'.
I have to resist the comparison to WalMart. On eBay, in the toy soldier world and everywhere else, it comes down to the seller getting as much as he possibly can, and the buyer paying as little as he must. Neither price is 'fixed', and no one is hurt in the transaction. If anything, selling on eBay is exactly the OPPOSITE of shopping at WalMart...
...with one similarity though. In both cases, there is a high probability that the purchased product was made in China. (o;
Terry
Terry,
On a side note, you said your in Cedar Rapids? I've been there several times for training as I used to work for Lefebure. How long has your shop been open, did I miss it years back? Got to admit I wouldn't be looking for such a specialty shop in that size and local.
Ray
On a side note, you said your in Cedar Rapids? I've been there several times for training as I used to work for Lefebure. How long has your shop been open, did I miss it years back? Got to admit I wouldn't be looking for such a specialty shop in that size and local.
Ray