AIR CRASH IN VIRGINIA (5 Viewers)

[marco55]

A plane just collided with a military helicopter. Doesn't look good.
Mark

 

[tdubel]

yup just saw this and sad. Having flown in and out of Reagan many times in the past, I hate to even say this, but it always scared me personally (only airport ever to do that to me) due to the magnitude of activity in the sky at all times.
hopefully they save as many as they can.
Tom

 

[Panzer ace]

Prayers to all who have been affected by this absolute tragedy.

A huge tip of the cap to all of the first responders who did all they could to save lives under impossible circumstances.

 

[Combat]

What a terrible month January turned out to be. It started with a terrorist attack in New Orleans and ends with this airline crash. With the wildfire in LA in between. I can clearly remember the airline crash into the Potomac back in 1982 during a snow storm. They also had a fire in the DC metro on the same day. Total chaos. Apparently no survivors this time. Reports of large number of figure skaters including some Russians on the plane. Terrible.

 

[Buster]

Condolences to the families and friends of the victims of this horrible accident.

B.

 

[Combat]

It's amazing to me that the military flies helicopter training missions along the Potomac River at night across the landing path of one of the busiest airports in America. We don't have any bases around the country where they can do that safely? Amazing stupidity. This accident was not a question of if but when. It's still in the early stages, but absent some other explanation, this was gross negligence. Incredibly sad for the families.

 

[marco55]

Yes that struck me as odd too. They have their own base . No survivors, 67 souls lost.
Mark

 

[tdubel]

Latest news is the Army Training Mission was much higher altitude wise than it ever should have been Very sad.

 

[Combat]

Apparently two other flights had to abort landings in recent weeks due to helicopters. So there was notice of a problem. Reckless and incredible incompetence by whoever in the military was in charge of these helicopter flights and the FAA for not taking action. A small child could have anticipated an accident from flying helicopters at night across the landing path of a busy airport. Trump apparently had fired the head of the FAA. No one was in charge during these aborted landings. He needs to be more responsible in his rhetoric. This accident has nothing to do with DEI and everything to do with incompetence of the military and mania to fire everyone in the government regardless of merit.

 

[OzDigger]

Apparently two other flights had to abort landings in recent weeks due to helicopters. So there was notice of a problem. Reckless and incredible incompetence by whoever in the military was in charge of these helicopter flights and the FAA for not taking action. A small child could have anticipated an accident from flying helicopters at night across the landing path of a busy airport. Trump apparently had fired the head of the FAA. No one was in charge during these aborted landings. He needs to be more responsible in his rhetoric. This accident has nothing to do with DEI and everything to do with incompetence of the military and mania to fire everyone in the government regardless of merit.

I regularly watch a number of YouTube channels concerning air crash investigations. In most cases the military usually have restricted airspace near their bases, and have precedence over civil flights. Not sure that applies in this specific case but this matter may become more complicated over time.

 

[Combat]

I regularly watch a number of YouTube channels concerning air crash investigations. In most cases the military usually have restricted airspace near their bases, and have precedence over civil flights. Not sure that applies in this specific case but this matter may become more complicated over time.

This crash took place in the flight path of a civilian airport. It's absolutely reckless to fly military helicopters on a training flight across the flight path of such an airport where planes are taking off and landing every minute. And apparently, the military helicopter was at a higher altitude than allowed. This is entirely on the military if that turns out to be the case. It may also be the case that the FAA's air controllers are short staffed. In which case, there is all the more reason not to allow military helicopters to fly at night into the airspace surrounding a civilian airport and make it all the more difficult for the air traffic controllers to manage the traffic. This is a giant clustermuck. Any small child would know better than the folks in charge.

 

[OzDigger]

This crash took place in the flight path of a civilian airport. It's absolutely reckless to fly military helicopters on a training flight across the flight path of such an airport where planes are taking off and landing every minute. And apparently, the military helicopter was at a higher altitude than allowed. This is entirely on the military if that turns out to be the case. It may also be the case that the FAA's air controllers are short staffed. In which case, there is all the more reason not to allow military helicopters to fly at night into the airspace surrounding a civilian airport and make it all the more difficult for the air traffic controllers to manage the traffic. This is a giant clustermuck. Any small child would know better than the folks in charge.

Yes, the helicopter flew into the jets flight path, accepted visual traffic control and increased height from 200' to 350/400' for no apparent reason, seems like case closed.

However I don't think the responsibility is 100% the fault of the helicopter pilot. As with most accidents the swiss cheese holes have to line up. When you watch the youtube video below, the matter becomes more complicated. Why did the Jet pilot accept change of runway when previous aircraft refused, and why so unsure, taking 20 seconds to agree to the change, 20 seconds being a l o n g time in that instance.

BTW I wouldn't be surprised if another executive order came out restricting flights into that airport.

 

[Beaufighter]

Cheers,

I will tackle this one since this is in my wheelhouse so to speak but I am in no way speculating as there are way too many variables that a full investigation will hopefully clear up.

Yes, the helicopter flew into the jets flight path, accepted visual traffic control and increased height from 200' to 350/400' for no apparent reason, seems like case closed.

Refer to these parameters to start but then again what was actually approved/assigned is TBD.

However I don't think the responsibility is 100% the fault of the helicopter pilot. As with most accidents the swiss cheese holes have to line up. When you watch the youtube video below, the matter becomes more complicated. Why did the Jet pilot accept change of runway when previous aircraft refused, and why so unsure, taking 20 seconds to agree to the change, 20 seconds being a l o n g time in that instance.

Runway length and landing distance required based on weight/altitude and temperature factor in here along with any crosswind component. RWY 33 at 5204 is shorter than RWY 1 at 7169. The Crew would have to input the parameters in to the Flight Management System for a RWY change to obtain their new reference speed and landing distance numbers. This task would eat up some seconds! As for why…it is an easier and shorter taxi time to the terminal gates from RWY 33. It also allows for the utilization of both active runways simultaneously which is common practice. As for the other aircraft refusing there are too many reasons why for me to speculate so I will refrain. Below is the taxi diagram for DCA…



Like any accident, missed opportunities to break the chain so to speak will be highlighted and my goal as always is to learn from them.

Definitely another tragic day in aviation.

Be Well!

BTW I wouldn't be surprised if another executive order came out restricting flights into that airport.

 

[OzDigger]

Thank you for your educated input Beaufighter.

I note there's already been some temporary restrictions put in place regarding helicopters pending the investigation.

However I expect the investigators will find a number of factors that contributed to the accident. The high volume of air traffic operating within a very restricted airspace being a major factor. I also have some doubts about the experience of the Jet pilots, especially the one responding to the Air Traffic controller, his comms seemed rather 'casual' imo. Examination of the 'Black Boxes' will be used to check everything possible including the actual altitude of the helicopter on impact as it didn't appear as high as some initially suggested.

 

[Combat]

This one is real simple. There should be nothing - not even a kite - flying in the approach path to a major airport. Nothing. Are there are other concerns like a shortage of flight controllers and incredible number of flights that have to be managed? Yes, but that is all the more reason that you shouldn't allow these helicopters in the immediate approach to the airport. My guess is that when all is said and done that most of the blame will be placed on the helicopter flight crew. And perhaps rightly so. But they should not have been sent there. Incredibly flight controllers were sent an email this week encouraging them all to quit. I'm all for reducing the size of government but that type of approach is absolutely reckless. We are in another age of Idiocracy.

 

[OzDigger]

This one is real simple. There should be nothing - not even a kite - flying in the approach path to a major airport. Nothing. Are there are other concerns like a shortage of flight controllers and incredible number of flights that have to be managed? Yes, but that is all the more reason that you shouldn't allow these helicopters in the immediate approach to the airport. My guess is that when all is said and done that most of the blame will be placed on the helicopter flight crew. And perhaps rightly so. But they should not have been sent there. Incredibly flight controllers were sent an email this week encouraging them all to quit. I'm all for reducing the size of government but that type of approach is absolutely reckless. We are in another age of Idiocracy.

I agree in theory, but reality is rarely simple, a bit like burying power lines to 'prevent' fires, just not practical in most cases.

Military helicopters need to patrol high risk environments especially near Washington, to do that they also need to practise there. My understanding is that airport has several runways, each has at least one approach/departure route, then add all the restricted no fly zones over sensitive areas, that results in few choices for helicopter use. And no matter what policies and plans are in place, humans have a tendency to find the cracks in 'the system', causing the inevitable accidents over time.

 

[Panzer ace]

This helicopter was not on patrol

This one is real simple. There should be nothing - not even a kite - flying in the approach path to a major airport. Nothing. Are there are other concerns like a shortage of flight controllers and incredible number of flights that have to be managed? Yes, but that is all the more reason that you shouldn't allow these helicopters in the immediate approach to the airport. My guess is that when all is said and done that most of the blame will be placed on the helicopter flight crew. And perhaps rightly so. But they should not have been sent there. Incredibly flight controllers were sent an email this week encouraging them all to quit. I'm all for reducing the size of government but that type of approach is absolutely reckless. We are in another age of Idiocracy.

Great post.

It is worth noting that this helicopter was on a training qualification flight, it was not on some type of critical security patrol.

 

[OzDigger]

This helicopter was not on patrol

Great post.

It is worth noting that this helicopter was on a training qualification flight, it was not on some type of critical security patrol.

More likely it was a training flight for emergency evacuation of key Washington personel, there's not much point training for that in another location.

I still don't understand why that airport remains Commercial and isn't under Military control being so close to the Whitehouse etc, it makes no sense to me in terms of national security.

 

[Combat]

More likely it was a training flight for emergency evacuation of key Washington personel, there's not much point training for that in another location.

I still don't understand why that airport remains Commercial and isn't under Military control being so close to the Whitehouse etc, it makes no sense to me in terms of national security.

My recollection is that members of Congress pushed for National airport because it is convenient for them to arrive and leave DC. It's now a major airport. The problem has been the helicopters which I understand have been increasingly used to transport military VIPs in the area. The traffic in DC is atrocious. And imagine how much worse it will be once the government workers have to commute. No one wants to drive in it. The no fly zones over the city forces many helicopters into the path of the airport. A recipe for disaster.

 

[OzDigger]

My recollection is that members of Congress pushed for National airport because it is convenient for them to arrive and leave DC. It's now a major airport. The problem has been the helicopters which I understand have been increasingly used to transport military VIPs in the area. The traffic in DC is atrocious. And imagine how much worse it will be once the government workers have to commute. No one wants to drive in it. The no fly zones over the city forces many helicopters into the path of the airport. A recipe for disaster.

I could understand that airport being used for government transport, that would blend ok with potential military use. However I think the general public should be shifted to alternate airports wherever possible, to bad about the extra travel time.

From what I've discovered about the high air traffic and helicopter use it's a wonder there wasn't an accident earlier, and not just involving helicopters. That airport is in a far from ideal location for such high air traffic volumes. Which is why I think they will make some cutbacks. I watched a few videos of the guys carrying out the crash investigations, they look like they're suffering from ptsd already.