Are you easily swayed??? (2 Viewers)

[Jack]

I had a detailed plan for the next year to get Conte's N/W Frontier, CS's Romans/Celts and various JJ and K & C to fill some gaps. Then I saw the new Crusaders in this months despatch and I've redone everything to get back into those. So yes, it appears I am easily swayed!

I sway a little bit...but the conditions have to be right. Napoleon in Egypt isn't a major sway from the Waterloo range...is it?

 

[wwiibuff]

I am actually fairly easily swayed Rob. It's hard for me to stick to not only a few ranges of WWII as you do, but to the whole lot of WWII. Not only do I collect most all ranges of WWII, but I also have some from Crusades, AWI, and Alamo as well.

 

[Blowtorch]

Well I have good news for you Rob, according to all the revisionist histories of Kursk as of late, it was only a mediocre tank battle...not great or The Greatest But it was a wild year. The Russians lost 14,000 T-34 tanks alone in 1943, not counting other types. By the end of the year, most of the Panzer Divisions were depleted as well

 

[Blowtorch]

Thats quite a sweeping statement, the T34 had better sloping armour than the Sherman and wider tracks that were better in mud and snow, its engine was also good in the cold , basic yes it was its welding was rough, I think most agree all in all better than the Sherman though.

Rob

The PzIV long had really good stats against the T-34, even during the teething problems of 1942. Don't know much about the desert, but I'm under the impression that there were only a handful of PzIV long against hundreds of Shermans. The PzIVF2/G was good, but not THAT good!

 

[Rob]

I am actually fairly easily swayed Rob. It's hard for me to stick to not only a few ranges of WWII as you do, but to the whole lot of WWII. Not only do I collect most all ranges of WWII, but I also have some from Crusades, AWI, and Alamo as well.

Hey Duke, wow, thats a lot of ranges, but I can fully understand why, if I had my way I'd be collecting Naps,Egyptian,WW1 as well.

Well I have good news for you Rob, according to all the revisionist histories of Kursk as of late, it was only a mediocre tank battle...not great or The Greatest But it was a wild year. The Russians lost 14,000 T-34 tanks alone in 1943, not counting other types. By the end of the year, most of the Panzer Divisions were depleted as well

I can honestly say that the first time I've ever heard Kursk described as 'mediocre' !{eek3} .14,000 tanks in one year, that is some statistic isn't it, with a country who can afford to lose such numbers you have to wonder if Germany ever stood a chance in the first place and how different things may have been for them if they hadn't invaded Russia.

The PzIV long had really good stats against the T-34, even during the teething problems of 1942. Don't know much about the desert, but I'm under the impression that there were only a handful of PzIV long against hundreds of Shermans. The PzIVF2/G was good, but not THAT good!

They were both good Tanks in their own way, there is no doubt the T34 with speed,armour and gun was a good all round Tank I don't think it can be denied. But the Germans made better armed and armoured tanks if not always the most reliable. I guess at the end of the day the T34 played a big role in the Russian victory is what we can say, in the end numbers was everything.

I sway a little bit...but the conditions have to be right. Napoleon in Egypt isn't a major sway from the Waterloo range...is it?

Not too major no:smile2:

Rob

 

[wayne556517]

Only if K&C make a Eastern front............STUKA.........................

Junkers Ju 87G-2 Stuka, Eastern Front, late 1943


(Sorry couldn't resist...............^&grin)

 

[Mitch]

Thing is I think for many years the myth of thousands of tanks rushing across the hot dusty plains of russia has been somewhat taken as definite. Far from the recent works being revisionist (which always in the negative when used in this context) we are beginning to see that it was not the case.

Take the weather it was wet not baking in sun for this massive battle and, as I have said before the battle of Gembloux was larger between the french and germans in may 14/15 1940. where two full strength PD took on two full strength light french mechanised divisions.

Does not have the same stirring imagery as kursk the greatest land battle. Look at all the deployment figures and there was less AFV's on both sides than what has been stated for many years as a fact that the germans lost!!!

Interesting battle but, not the great event that has been portrayed and, I am glad that new very detailed and based on fact rather than myth have been published. A number of authors have based their careers on these set in stone facts that are just not that.
Mitch

Well I have good news for you Rob, according to all the revisionist histories of Kursk as of late, it was only a mediocre tank battle...not great or The Greatest But it was a wild year. The Russians lost 14,000 T-34 tanks alone in 1943, not counting other types. By the end of the year, most of the Panzer Divisions were depleted as well

 

[Blowtorch]

Far from the recent works being revisionist (which always in the negative when used in this context) we are beginning to see that it was not the case.

Didn't mean to sound critical. I am very pro revisionist as long as there is data to back it up. Someone here has a Nappy quote "history is a package of lies agreed upon by committee" which is usually true.

I only read an excerpt by one of the authors..but he was in agreement with you, that the bigger tank battles were earlier in the war. The largest on the Eastern Front he calculated occurred sometime in the first weeks of Barbarossa. A big one also happened in 1942 at Voronezh which would be pretty good fodder for wargamers, as both sides were technically at the same level. Well maybe not. The Russian edge in numbers was still too small to compensate for the qualitative edge the Germans had in tactics, and the Luftwaffe was pretty strong too. My how Stalingrad changed things.

 

[Blowtorch]

Only if K&C make a Eastern front............STUKA.........................

Junkers Ju 87G-2 Stuka, Eastern Front, late 1943
View attachment 83776

(Sorry couldn't resist...............^&grin)

Funny I had a dream about Hitler's latest invention last night. The hybrid dive bomber. It had the fuselage of a P-47, the wings of a Me-109 (early), one Me-262 jet engine on each wing, and the nose cone & fixed landing gear (no hub caps) of a Stuka.

 

[Mitch]

Blowtorch..

No problem its obvious you know your stuff and, I was not thinking you were being critical. its just that kursk is one of the battles where historians have rammed it down the throats of every avid reader (myself included when I was younger) that its hard to break away from the pre existing written word. What I like is that we are able to place this battle into context now with a variety of new sources. I have seen some rather bitter comments from some authors on the new works but, that is understandable.
Mitch

Didn't mean to sound critical. I am very pro revisionist as long as there is data to back it up. Someone here has a Nappy quote "history is a package of lies agreed upon by committee" which is usually true.

I only read an excerpt by one of the authors..but he was in agreement with you, that the bigger tank battles were earlier in the war. The largest on the Eastern Front he calculated occurred sometime in the first weeks of Barbarossa. A big one also happened in 1942 at Voronezh which would be pretty good fodder for wargamers, as both sides were technically at the same level. Well maybe not. The Russian edge in numbers was still too small to compensate for the qualitative edge the Germans had in tactics, and the Luftwaffe was pretty strong too. My how Stalingrad changed things.

 

[wayne556517]

Funny I had a dream about Hitler's latest invention last night. The hybrid dive bomber. It had the fuselage of a P-47, the wings of a Me-109 (early), one Me-262 jet engine on each wing, and the nose cone & fixed landing gear (no hub caps) of a Stuka.

Funny i had a dream last night to but i can't put it on here....................

 

[bromhead]

The problem with revisionism is that its too locked into the past,,a lot like nostalgia,,

 

[Rob]

How about one of these here babies;

And maybe another;

 

[Jack]

How about one of these here babies;

And maybe another;

Is this the vehicle museum at Duxford?

 

[Rob]

Is this the vehicle museum at Duxford?

It is indeed Jack.

Rob

 

[Jack]

It is indeed Jack.

Rob

I have been to Duxford a couple of times and I found the vehicle Museum more than worth the trip on its own. The first time I almost dismissed it as a possible add on which could not live up to the aircraft displays. It is, as you know, quite magnificent.

There is not a lot of that kind of material in Brisbane, although we do have the last surviving German tank from World War One at the Queensland Museum. Now that would be a King and Country AFV I would buy. A better seller than the Stuka everyone spends so much time talking about!

 

[Rob]

I have been to Duxford a couple of times and I found the vehicle Museum more than worth the trip on its own. The first time I almost dismissed it as a possible add on which could not live up to the aircraft displays. It is, as you know, quite magnificent.

There is not a lot of that kind of material in Brisbane, although we do have the last surviving German tank from World War One at the Queensland Museum. Now that would be a King and Country AFV I would buy. A better seller than the Stuka everyone spends so much time talking about!

I agree Jack, its a superb ground hall just great. So much to see at Duxford overall that its difficult to know where to start when you get there, they have some stunning Air displays in the summer too, highly recommended. The WW1 Tank in Queensland sounds well worth seeing, we have a MkV Brit Tank at the museum which is also cool.

Rob

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Those are some Fantastic Pics. !!! Thanks for posting. !!! {bravo}}

 

[Rob]

Those are some Fantastic Pics. !!! Thanks for posting. !!! {bravo}}

You're welcome

Rob

 

[Blowtorch]

Is that one of the Saving Private Ryan tigers that Spielberg made from a T-34?