Australia burns. (1 Viewer)

tank said:
What a profesional approach you have in this post... Impressive!

Now, what would you say to this:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-15/are-bigger-water-bombers-the-answer-to-bushfire-woes/11705502



Experts are warning that fire services do not have enough large aircraft to deal with the unprecedented magnitude of fires we are now faced with.
Former NSW Deputy Fire and Rescue commissioner Ken Thompson said Australia needed to invest in more large aircraft that are available year-round.
"We've got real concerns about the impact that climate change is having on fire behaviour and we've got very serious concerns about the small numbers of large aircraft that are available to support firefighters and local communities," he said.

"What we really need is the large, high-volume water bombers that can deliver really large amounts of water very quickly to serious fires."
​

Mr Thompson said heading into catastrophic fire conditions small aircraft simply could not cover the same amount of ground.

"At the moment, the smaller aircraft can only carry around 1,500 to 2,000 litres. These [larger] aircraft can carry up around 15,000 litres," he said.
"This is an important enough issue that the Prime Minister needs to become involved," Mr Thompson said.
"But we just haven't been getting the response that we would have hoped for from him."


​
comments


Paul
What a disaster we have at the moment. PM obviously caught out lying on national TV last night regarding the imminent arrival of large aircraft from overseas.
Cant understand why we have never set up a reserve unit of commercial pilots and RAAF to utilise old Qantas planes converted to water bombers. 6 old 767 converted flying retardant in would make a massive difference. When you see the lives lost and total destruction cost has nothing to do with it, its a must for a country like ours.

0 Reply
3 days ago


Geoffrey
A Liberal Government, will never spend money on anything to do with Climate change, that includes fire fighting, they have been dragged kicking and screaming to do what little they have done, why, because their mates at the big end of town, cannot make a profit out of fire fighting. There is a ‘professional’ fire fighting unit in the ADF, sitting on their bums because the government say no, we may need you in an emergency. The first aviation organisation, that converts many large aircraft, like one 747 has been, will have a year round business thrown at them, except… Read more »

0 Reply
3 days ago

Gerry S

The best firefighting a/c out there is Russia's Beriev Be-200. This large twin-jet powered amphibian is a superb water blaster. They are available for rent. Australia should purchase a few. They are outstanding. Would be nice if SF educated its readers about this remarkable airplane.

0 Reply
2 days ago






Firefighting aircraft 'in mothballs' overseas while country burns


Bushfire experts have questioned why Australian governments have not used powerful firefighting aircraft sitting dormant overseas to battle the blazes ravaging NSW and other states.​

https://www.smh.com.au/national/firefighting-aircraft-in-mothballs-overseas-while-country-burns-20191228-p53naw.html


​

Probably it would pay to learn the stuff better so next time you wouldn’t post a nonsense.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

tank said:
Fascinated!

Do you want to name that more capable than the BE-200 firefighting aircraft.
Would appreciate a prompt reply.

Thanks.



The Be-200 in amphibious water drop fire-fighter configuration suppresses fires by dropping water contained in eight ferric aluminium alloy water tanks, located under the cabin floor in the centre fuselage section. Four retractable water scoops, two forward and two aft of the fuselage step, can be used to scoop a total of 12 tonnes of water in 14 seconds.

 It can operate from either a 1,800 m long runway or an area of open water not less than 2,300 m long and 2.5 m deep, with waves of up to 1.3 m high.[SUP][3]


Operational history


Two Be-200ES were again leased by Portugal from July 10 to September 30, 2007. During this period 58 fire-fighting flights were conducted with a total flying time of over 167 hours. 2,322 tones (2,560 tons) of water was dropped. Beriev claims that representatives of the newly formed Portuguese government enterprise EMA (Empresa de Meios Aéreos) have expressed their interest in a long-term cooperation with Beriev and the Be-200 in Portugal.[SUP][29]

Two Be-200ES also operated in Greece, RF-32768 fighting the 2007 forest fires for the whole season and RF-21512 from August 30 to September 13.[SUP][30]

In early December 2010, two Be-200ES aircraft were used to fight the 2010 Mount Carmel forest fire near Haifa, Israel.[SUP][33][/SUP][SUP][34]
In August 2016 two Be-200 aircraft were sent to Portugal after being asked for help in extinguishing forest fires.[SUP][37][/SUP] Four days later it was reported that thanks to the work of the Russian Emergencies Ministry Be-200 pilots, the fire was prevented from spreading in the direction of two settlements: Castro Laboreiro with a population of 1,000 people, and Viaden de Baixo, where 15 farms were saved from fire, and Peneda-Gerês National Park.[SUP][38]

[/SUP][/SUP][/SUP][/SUP][/SUP]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_Be-200[SUP][SUP][SUP][SUP][SUP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPtoMKSC5OY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soWPblRM-zw&feature=emb_logo


[/SUP][/SUP][/SUP][/SUP][/SUP]
Click to expand...

Actually I do know this stuff, I have a degree in Protected Area Management, which of course includes Fire Management in Wildness Areas.

I mentioned 'capability' which covers a variety of factors, not just capacity of the aircraft. That said the largest Firefighting Aircraft currently in use in Australia is the Boeing 737-300 Fireliner with a capacity of 15,100 Litres, which is more than the 12,010 litre capacity of the Beriev Be-200 aircraft you mentioned.

In Australia we don't have long/large lakes like in Russia, USA, Canada etc. It would be very difficult and dangerous to replenish a Beriew Be-200 with lake water in Australia. Anyway they usually use Fire Retardant in Australia as it's more effective than water. Another factor is that Russia has never been a go to country for the Australian Government, why would we start now? I don't know about NZ, but you don't see Russian cars in Australia these days. Many years ago there were a few Lada Niva 4 x 4s on the roads here and some farmers purchased Belarus Tractors, but these are very scarce now. They proved to be unreliable and poorly manufactured, spare parts were also hard to obtain. No doubt that would be the same with Russian built aircraft. Our Governments have made some poor decisions over the years, but they are not That stupid.

In any case, the fact remains that Aerial Fire Fighting Aircraft are useful but they are not the magic bullet that many people seem to think. I suggest you do some research into these matters before quoting from the Uninformed and Politically Motivated.
 
OzDigger said:
Actually I do know this stuff, I have a degree in Protected Area Management, which of course includes Fire Management in Wildness Areas.

I mentioned 'capability' which covers a variety of factors, not just capacity of the aircraft. That said the largest Firefighting Aircraft currently in use in Australia is the Boeing 737-300 Fireliner with a capacity of 15,100 Litres, which is more than the 12,010 litre capacity of the Beriev Be-200 aircraft you mentioned.

In Australia we don't have long/large lakes like in Russia, USA, Canada etc. It would be very difficult and dangerous to replenish a Beriew Be-200 with lake water in Australia. Anyway they usually use Fire Retardant in Australia as it's more effective than water. Another factor is that Russia has never been a go to country for the Australian Government, why would we start now? I don't know about NZ, but you don't see Russian cars in Australia these days. Many years ago there were a few Lada Niva 4 x 4s on the roads here and some farmers purchased Belarus Tractors, but these are very scarce now. They proved to be unreliable and poorly manufactured, spare parts were also hard to obtain. No doubt that would be the same with Russian built aircraft. Our Governments have made some poor decisions over the years, but they are not That stupid.

In any case, the fact remains that Aerial Fire Fighting Aircraft are useful but they are not the magic bullet that many people seem to think. I suggest you do some research into these matters before quoting from the Uninformed and Politically Motivated.
Click to expand...


You make me laugh.

Just one question.

How much time would it take to fill the water tanks of the Boeing 737-300 Fireliner. Is it 14 sec?



“They proved to be unreliable and poorly manufactured, spare parts were also hard to obtain. No doubt that would be the same with Russian built aircraft”

Seriuosly?

A firm called International Emergency Services (“IES”), housed at the Santa Maria Public Airport in California, US has been trying for some years to bring the BE-200 to the United States in its fire-fighting role.[SUP][40][/SUP] An organisation called the USA Firefighting Air Corps (“USAFAC”) said in September 2014 that it had signed a collaboration agreement with IES to develop a U.S.-built BE-200 in Colorado;[SUP][41][/SUP] however, while the USAFAC website maintains a BE-200 photo, no further information is provided on the status of the project.[SUP][42][/SUP] There was also discussion at a Santa Maria Public Airport District meeting in October of 2016 of IES, Seaplane Global Air Services (“SGAS”) and Airbus partnering to build the aircraft at the Santa Maria airport.[SUP][43][/SUP] Meanwhile, in September of 2018, SGAS ordered from the manufacturer four Be-200ES aircraft with an option for six more. The first two aircraft will be equipped with D-436TP engines, the eight others with the SaM146 engines.[SUP][44][/SUP] According to some reports, SGAS has plans to wet- and dry-lease the water-bombers in partnership with IES, offering services in several countries, including the US, European nations, and Australia.[SUP][45]
[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_Be-200



Sometimes it’s better to keep silent so people think you are smart. ( Russian wisdom )

Cheers.
 
pmmluGq.jpg
​
 
It would take longer than 14 seconds obviously as the 737-300 has to be refilled with fire retardant at an airport.

As for your partial wiki quote, there's a big difference between US orders and actual completed and certified aircraft. The BE 200 design is now over 20 years old and despite alot of promotion very few sales have been achieved globally.

Why is that Tank?








tank said:
You make me laugh.

Just one question.

How much time would it take to fill the water tanks of the Boeing 737-300 Fireliner. Is it 14 sec?



“They proved to be unreliable and poorly manufactured, spare parts were also hard to obtain. No doubt that would be the same with Russian built aircraft”

Seriuosly?

A firm called International Emergency Services (“IES”), housed at the Santa Maria Public Airport in California, US has been trying for some years to bring the BE-200 to the United States in its fire-fighting role.[SUP][40][/SUP] An organisation called the USA Firefighting Air Corps (“USAFAC”) said in September 2014 that it had signed a collaboration agreement with IES to develop a U.S.-built BE-200 in Colorado;[SUP][41][/SUP] however, while the USAFAC website maintains a BE-200 photo, no further information is provided on the status of the project.[SUP][42][/SUP] There was also discussion at a Santa Maria Public Airport District meeting in October of 2016 of IES, Seaplane Global Air Services (“SGAS”) and Airbus partnering to build the aircraft at the Santa Maria airport.[SUP][43][/SUP] Meanwhile, in September of 2018, SGAS ordered from the manufacturer four Be-200ES aircraft with an option for six more. The first two aircraft will be equipped with D-436TP engines, the eight others with the SaM146 engines.[SUP][44][/SUP] According to some reports, SGAS has plans to wet- and dry-lease the water-bombers in partnership with IES, offering services in several countries, including the US, European nations, and Australia.[SUP][45]
[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_Be-200



Sometimes it’s better to keep silent so people think you are smart. ( Russian wisdom )

Cheers.
Click to expand...
 
To see people (and animals) on the beach hoping the fire does not reach them is an awful sight. Yet, they are far from safe as the smoke inhalation by now is filled with toxic chemicals and these poor people are breathing in all those chemicals. To see a sky that is orange with hot flames is unimaginable and since Australia is so big I cannot fathom the scale of the fires, but I know that they are big and dwarf any fire in recent memory.

Australia, US and Canada have a reciprocating relationship where we have sent fire fighters to Australia for their fire disasters and they have sent fire fighters to our country(s) to help in the fire fighting efforts. I'm sure anything helps when a community/country if faced with a disaster like this and it is good to see a great working relationship. One would wish that we live in a world where no matter what the circumstances were that an international coalition would rise up and be there to help a fellow country. Sadly, in this day and age that will never happen.

After reading this post and seeing the back and forth about the how and why a particular plane should be used I was left kinda dumbfounded. Ozdigger is right, you have to have water to be able to use that type of aircraft. No doubt that aircraft looks like it can do the job, but is not the "magic bullet" as Oz poignantly points out and Australia (or any other country) shouldn't be castigated for not using said aircraft even though Tank believes its the solution. And Tank it may be a solution, but sometimes "things" no matter what they are-are bigger than us and there is no doubt that this catastrophe is bigger than anyone can imagine.

Me? I know nothing or fire fighting, causes of fires or how to prevent them. The closest I get to a fire is my fire pit in the back yard to make smores and the only thing I can relate to is the human element of this disaster. Frankly it must be horrific to be in that situation right now and seeing the photos of people in water with an orange sky behind them with terror in their faces gives me pause.

Oh and one last thing. My first teddy bear (I may have mentioned this before) is a Koala bear named "Quantas". I still got him, albeit my 18 year old daughter is taking care of him now and as a little kid I would try to imagine where Quantas grew up in this far away land called Australia. Well that far away land is not so far away anymore because I have friends from there now who are on this forum and one day the wife and I plan to visit the land down under. So, my heart pains for you guys down there in Australia and if I had the power to "poof" and blow away the fires I would and if any of you need to leave for a while my house is open for you to stay. I promise you won't go hungry.

John from Texas
 
hotel3alpha said:
To see people (and animals) on the beach hoping the fire does not reach them is an awful sight. Yet, they are far from safe as the smoke inhalation by now is filled with toxic chemicals and these poor people are breathing in all those chemicals. To see a sky that is orange with hot flames is unimaginable and since Australia is so big I cannot fathom the scale of the fires, but I know that they are big and dwarf any fire in recent memory.

Australia, US and Canada have a reciprocating relationship where we have sent fire fighters to Australia for their fire disasters and they have sent fire fighters to our country(s) to help in the fire fighting efforts. I'm sure anything helps when a community/country if faced with a disaster like this and it is good to see a great working relationship. One would wish that we live in a world where no matter what the circumstances were that an international coalition would rise up and be there to help a fellow country. Sadly, in this day and age that will never happen.

After reading this post and seeing the back and forth about the how and why a particular plane should be used I was left kinda dumbfounded. Ozdigger is right, you have to have water to be able to use that type of aircraft. No doubt that aircraft looks like it can do the job, but is not the "magic bullet" as Oz poignantly points out and Australia (or any other country) shouldn't be castigated for not using said aircraft even though Tank believes its the solution. And Tank it may be a solution, but sometimes "things" no matter what they are-are bigger than us and there is no doubt that this catastrophe is bigger than anyone can imagine.

Me? I know nothing or fire fighting, causes of fires or how to prevent them. The closest I get to a fire is my fire pit in the back yard to make smores and the only thing I can relate to is the human element of this disaster. Frankly it must be horrific to be in that situation right now and seeing the photos of people in water with an orange sky behind them with terror in their faces gives me pause.

Oh and one last thing. My first teddy bear (I may have mentioned this before) is a Koala bear named "Quantas". I still got him, albeit my 18 year old daughter is taking care of him now and as a little kid I would try to imagine where Quantas grew up in this far away land called Australia. Well that far away land is not so far away anymore because I have friends from there now who are on this forum and one day the wife and I plan to visit the land down under. So, my heart pains for you guys down there in Australia and if I had the power to "poof" and blow away the fires I would and if any of you need to leave for a while my house is open for you to stay. I promise you won't go hungry.

John from Texas
Click to expand...

Photos like that really bring it, the look of Fear and Bewilderment on those Koalas looks so similar to the Human emotions experienced by people directly affected by the fires.

I've been lucky so far living in a coastal urban area many kilometres from any major fires. My Sister in Law lives nearby but is still upset about her family holiday home in Lake Conjola, on the South Coast of New South Wales being burnt to the ground recently. They sold it several years ago after the death of her Father, but the memories remain as they say. I understand 89 homes and at least Three lives were lost in that fire. A firefighting helicopter was used against that fire being able to refill from that small shallow lake, hopefully it saved some homes and lives. Obviously a larger fixed wind aircraft could not be used there, the same with most lakes in Australia especially after Three years of drought in most of the country.

It doesn't matter what fancy equipment you have, when a fire gets up into the canopy of a forest in Australia it can travel at speeds of 30 Kilometres per Hour in steep country. The ocean is often the only thing that will stop those fires. The best we hope is try and minimize the loss of lives and property.

The leaves on Australian Eucalypt trees have volatile oils, they are pre-heated by the approaching fire and explode into flames. Their branches point Upwards, not Downwards like Conifer trees in other Countries and their larger combustible leaves start spot fires several kilometres ahead of the main fire when carried on fire heightened winds. The sky becomes so full of smoke that people in aircraft are often unable to see the ground let alone place an accurate load of water where it's needed. With up to 15 tonnes of water, it needs to be placed accurately to avoid loss of life and collateral damage to property etc. And of course it helps a lot if the pilot can actually understand English.
 
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Rusty said:
Mate..mate..mate this is in the remote arid parts of South Australia NOT in the fire affected regions. Also at the request of local Aboriginal elders.

I don’t see many Camels going on bush walks in the dense forest.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct Rusty, these camels in the Australian Outback are dying from lack of food and water due to the long term drought conditions inland, and elsewhere in Australia. Sad to see however they are pest animals and it's kinder to destroy them rather than letting them die of thirst.
 
waynepoo said:
Image taken from the cockpit of a RAAF C-27J Spartan on recovery mission during the bushfires.


2F2rhR5.png





I haveI
​
Click to expand...


Wow...I found the relevant video just now, visibility sure is limited:


Reminds me of the cockpit view from the underrated tele-movie; 'By Dawn's Early Light' about the Cold War, seems somehow relevant again.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OzDigger said:
Absolutely correct Rusty, these camels in the Australian Outback are dying from lack of food and water due to the long term drought conditions inland, and elsewhere in Australia. Sad to see however they are pest animals and it's kinder to destroy them rather than letting them die of thirst.
Click to expand...

Very true, have been a blithe on the Australian landscape since their introduction just the cane toad.
 
joesgis said:
Wayne,
The photo really got to me. Thank you for posting it. I pray for all the people,animals and property of AU to escape the path of these insane fires.

Joe
Click to expand...
It is heartbreaking to see our Koalas under such stress as indeed all our wonderful wildlife, a report has it that for every one Koala saved one hundred have perished in the fires and this when they were already under enormous stress from land clearing and etc. The human and propriety cost of the fires is bad enough but we are a hardy bunch and will recover but the cost to wildlife is something we can't endure without also doing something tangible to ensure they are not lost forever when the fires abate, we need more national parks and better planning towards a balance in urban spread and environmental preservation for the sack of our wildlife and our kids.
 
joesgis said:
Wayne,
The photo really got to me. Thank you for posting it. I pray for all the people,animals and property of AU to escape the path of these insane fires.

Joe
Click to expand...

Amen to that Joe.
Mark
 
Have posted some grim pictures of orange skies caused by the bushfires but Australia does offer up a some what less apocalyptic orange.
The Poinciana tree on my footpath which just loves a hot summer.

PL0hRwU.jpg
​
 
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