Baseball - At Last ! (2 Viewers)

[wayne556517]

Something like this would not happen in cricket.

Not yet,but we have had game fixing.

 

[jazzeum]

Something like this would not happen in cricket.

Yes, who would want to bother

 

[damian]

Yes, who would want to bother

Touche
My tongue was firmly in my cheek with the original comment.
We have had our share of dodgy behaviour.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

We had a full page write up here today in our paper and the boys and i at (Mcguire) work,during smoko never heard of him.Why its in our papers has got me stuffed so i gather it must be huge in the states.What some will do for money in the long run only cheating yourself sometimes i think the money comes before the love of the game.

The hugest! Babe Ruth was one of the icons of baseball 1914 - 1935, if not the icon. He hit 60 home runs in 1927, an amazing number. And he did it on a training regime of hot dogs, beer, cigars and women. It wasn't until 1961 that Roger Maris broke the record with 61 home runs. But there was a huge controversy because the schedule was then 162 games long and when Babe Ruth was playing, it was only 154 games long. The outcry over replacing the Babe in the record book was so great, the league only recognized Maris feat with an asterisk (162 game season) and left Ruth's record for a 154 game season in the record book.

Forward to 1998 when McGwire shattered the record with 70 home runs while juiced up on steroids. The same year Sammy Sosa, also on steroids, hit 66 home runs. The record is now 73 home runs (Barry Bonds).

Before 1990, only eleven players had hit 50 or more homers in a season, a total of 18 times in 70 years; only Ruth and Maris had hit 60. Since 1994, thirteen more players have joined the Club by hitting 50-or-more home runs 21 times and three players — Sosa, McGwire and Bonds — have hit 60 or more homers a total of six times, and two of them have broken the 70 home run plateau, the three of them on steroids.

IMO they have tarnished one of the great records in baseball and I do not accept those numbers. For me, the home run leaders remain Maris and Ruth.

Terry

 

[jazzeum]

Excuse me? Maris and Ruth? Maris, yes, at 61. However, as the expression went, "Move over Babe, Hammerin' Hank has taken your place," or something like that.

The record holder for most home runs in a career (prior to Bar-roid) is Hank Aaron, with 755.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Excuse me? Maris and Ruth? Maris, yes, at 61. However, as the expression went, "Move over Babe, Hammerin' Hank has taken your place," or something like that.

The record holder for most home runs in a career (prior to Bar-roid) is Hank Aaron, with 755.

Yes Jazz - I agree for career home runs. I was answering Wayne on McGuire for single season. And I also do not recognize Barry the Steroid Bonds 762 career home runs.

Terry

 

[Warrior]

It wasn't until 1961 that Roger Maris broke the record with 61 home runs. But there was a huge controversy because the schedule was then 162 games long and when Babe Ruth was playing, it was only 154 games long. The outcry over replacing the Babe in the record book was so great, the league only recognized Maris feat with an asterisk (162 game season) and left Ruth's record for a 154 game season in the record book.

That in itself is one of the many reasons why baseball is a joke of a sport to many.

Two seperate home run leaders based on how many games played in the season? Maris hit more than Ruth in a SINGLE SEASON, he should be the single season home run champion. The poor guy died with an asterick next to his name, glad baseball had the brains to remove it later on.

Does football have records for 12, 14 and 16 game seasons? No they don't; does basketball and hockey have them for 76 game seasons vs 82 game seasons, no they don't.

Baseball=joke.

 

[lancer]

Terry makes great points. I agree with them, no ifs, ands, or buts. As a further example of the "popularity" of Bond's "record", try selling his rookie baseball card. Last time I looked, you couldn't give his card away and the same is true of the other 'roid era hitters. Compared to the cards of Maris or Mantle (forget Ruth, you would have to be Bill Gates rich), the 'roid hitters will never be worth squat. Sort of like their "records". I'll stick with my heroes of yesteryear and a Cal Ripken Jr. or two. -- Al

 

[Louis Badolato]

The hugest! Babe Ruth was one of the icons of baseball 1914 - 1935, if not the icon. He hit 60 home runs in 1927, an amazing number. And he did it on a training regime of hot dogs, beer, cigars and women. It wasn't until 1961 that Roger Maris broke the record with 61 home runs. But there was a huge controversy because the schedule was then 162 games long and when Babe Ruth was playing, it was only 154 games long. The outcry over replacing the Babe in the record book was so great, the league only recognized Maris feat with an asterisk (162 game season) and left Ruth's record for a 154 game season in the record book.

Forward to 1998 when McGwire shattered the record with 70 home runs while juiced up on steroids. The same year Sammy Sosa, also on steroids, hit 66 home runs. The record is now 73 home runs (Barry Bonds).

Before 1990, only eleven players had hit 50 or more homers in a season, a total of 18 times in 70 years; only Ruth and Maris had hit 60. Since 1994, thirteen more players have joined the Club by hitting 50-or-more home runs 21 times and three players — Sosa, McGwire and Bonds — have hit 60 or more homers a total of six times, and two of them have broken the 70 home run plateau, the three of them on steroids.

IMO they have tarnished one of the great records in baseball and I do not accept those numbers. For me, the home run leaders remain Maris and Ruth.

Terry

Very well stated. I could not agree more. I would only add that the all time home run king remains Hank Aaron, who broke Babe's record of 714 fair and square pre-steroids. If you ban Pete Rose (the all time hit king) from baseball for life and from the hall of fame for gambling on baseball because it could effect the outcome of games and adversely effect public opinion regarding the honesty of the sport, how do you not ban all the steriod cheats, who tarnished the sport far more than Pete Rose, and certainly affected the outcome of numerous games with their cheating. Frankly, as a Yankee fan, the Championships won by the Yankees from 1999 and 2000 with Clemons and Pettitte are tainted, as are the pennants won in 2001 and 2003 with Clemons and Giambi. I think an honest Red Sox fan would feel the championships won with both Manny and Ortiz in 2004 and 2007 are equally tainted. I am appalled by the amount of players who have tested positive or otherwise been implicated in cheating with performance enhancing drugs. None of the power numbers from this "steroid era" can be trusted, and I am thrilled that so far more than 30% of the baseball writers/hall of fame voters refuse to consider them as the basis for entry into the hall.

 

[jazzeum]

Louis,

It's possible that the 2000 WS title is tainted but I'm sure that the Mets had players who were also tainted so what are you going to do. If you say the title counts (and even as a Mets fan I'm not going to say it doesn't), by extension don't you have to recognize all the other tainted achievements by players during the steroids era? So, do you then vacate those titles and records? But then, what about those players who weren't tainted who played on championship teams. It's frankly a complicated question and I don't think there is much you can do. In our minds, Aaron is still the HR king but to vacate Bonds' as the HR king leads you down that proverbial slippery slope, where there are no easy answers.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Brad,

I have an easy answer that I am satisfied with: take the whole era from about 1980 until about 2008 and just wipe everything from the books that has anything to do with anyone determined to have cheated with steroids. If a team won a championship (Yankees, Red Sox) or pennant (Giants, Yankees) relying in part on players determined to have been cheating it should not be counted.

And Tony LaRussa pissed me off more than McGuire. When he denied knowing that McGuire and Canseco (two of the most obvious offenders, both of whom played on teams he managed) were on steroids, it made me realize the problem will never go away until the teams are hit in the pocket book, not just the players. Seriously, if teams had to forfeit games (and the revenues from said games) where it is determined that one or more players in the game were cheating, there would be no more performance enhancing drug problem. The teams would hire top notch private investigators to watch their own players, and the minute anyone approached them with anything suspicious, the teams would deal with the problem internally.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Baseball is one of the least team sports. It's mostly pitcher vs batter and I believe the most benefit of steroids goes to a power hitter and a power pitcher. I like Louis idea to forfeit games that used steroid players in the future. But I wouldn't want to wipe out team stats - every team had steroid players. Just focus on the prominent players who were obvious users and delete the individual power records like home runs in a season, career home runs, strikeouts, ERA, etc. Sure, the team benefits from a steroid player, but as I said, all teams have steroid players. It would be difficult to delete a decade of team stats and championships, but not too difficult to wipe out obvious record breaking performances. The really prominent users are really bulked up from their younger days and are pretty easy to identify.

As for fairness, we can't identify all of the users (many players still sucked even with steroids and have nothing to lose), but examples can be made of the record holders and Hall of Fame wannabes.

Terry

 

[tdubel]

Brad,

I have an easy answer that I am satisfied with: take the whole era from about 1980 until about 2008 and just wipe everything from the books that has anything to do with anyone determined to have cheated with steroids. If a team won a championship (Yankees, Red Sox) or pennant (Giants, Yankees) relying in part on players determined to have been cheating it should not be counted.

And Tony LaRussa pissed me off more than McGuire. When he denied knowing that McGuire and Canseco (two of the most obvious offenders, both of whom played on teams he managed) were on steroids, it made me realize the problem will never go away until the teams are hit in the pocket book, not just the players. Seriously, if teams had to forfeit games (and the revenues from said games) where it is determined that one or more players in the game were cheating, there would be no more performance enhancing drug problem. The teams would hire top notch private investigators to watch their own players, and the minute anyone approached them with anything suspicious, the teams would deal with the problem internally.

I think you have to first identify when it was actually illegal and against the rules or when there was a rule.

I don't agree here, I think the public black eye is enough, you penalize way to many others with that broad brush of a sword.

I tend to remember individualy records in the way I want to. Hank Aaron's was awesome , Barry Bonds was also an achievement but a lesser one due to the cloud around it.

Personal opinion is the Steroids allowed most of them to recover quickly and play more games. Bonds always had one of the best batting swings ever and had the fastest bat speed and eyes long before steroids. Obviously for him, steroids completed the perfect picture for the home runs. I still don't care as much as you guys do about it (and that's ok, each of us has different passions), I don't agree with what these guys did, but I am not going to worry about it either. In my mind, I will remember Barry Bonds as the best natural hitter of his era, I don't care about the home runs, I remember his days with Pirates, no one swings a bat like he did.

Tom

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Manny Sosa all become eligible for the Hall of Fame in 2013. We'll see if they get the same treatment as McGwire.

Terry

 

[modwalls]

Very well stated. I could not agree more. I would only add that the all time home run king remains Hank Aaron, who broke Babe's record of 714 fair and square pre-steroids. If you ban Pete Rose (the all time hit king) from baseball for life and from the hall of fame for gambling on baseball because it could effect the outcome of games and adversely effect public opinion regarding the honesty of the sport, how do you not ban all the steriod cheats, who tarnished the sport far more than Pete Rose, and certainly affected the outcome of numerous games with their cheating. Frankly, as a Yankee fan, the Championships won by the Yankees from 1999 and 2000 with Clemons and Pettitte are tainted, as are the pennants won in 2001 and 2003 with Clemons and Giambi. I think an honest Red Sox fan would feel the championships won with both Manny and Ortiz in 2004 and 2007 are equally tainted. I am appalled by the amount of players who have tested positive or otherwise been implicated in cheating with performance enhancing drugs. None of the power numbers from this "steroid era" can be trusted, and I am thrilled that so far more than 30% of the baseball writers/hall of fame voters refuse to consider them as the basis for entry into the hall.

Louis your dead on right, I'm a Red Sox fan, and in the heat of their Championships, I was elated to have that monkey off our back. Now after Many, David, I don't feel the same. If corked bats are cheating, so are corked athletes. The Splendid Splinter, not to mention Yaz, must be shaking their heads in shame.

 

[lancer]

I don't see how one can erase some records from the 'roid era and not others. It will prove impossible to prove, beyond doubt, each and every stat/record that may be 'roid enhanced. It is either all or nothing and thus will be nothing. Just no way to prove it. Sure, you can see sudden spikes in BAvg's, Hr's, Rbi's, etc. but there have ALWAYS been and always be 1 year spikes. Just as an example, Maris, who is obviously beyond reproach, never came close to 61 before or after his record setting year. A one year spike. So how do you take a record from someone in the 'roid era? Obviously, Bonds juiced and hit Hr's left and right, but his record year was a one year spike. Never came close to that total before or after. Like I said, it's all or nothing. Baseball will NEVER erase any record, questionable or not. It would really be the end of what baseball is, where numbers rule. JMO. -- lancer

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I don't see how one can erase some records from the 'roid era and not others. It will prove impossible to prove, beyond doubt, each and every stat/record that may be 'roid enhanced. It is either all or nothing and thus will be nothing. Just no way to prove it. Sure, you can see sudden spikes in BAvg's, Hr's, Rbi's, etc. but there have ALWAYS been and always be 1 year spikes. Just as an example, Maris, who is obviously beyond reproach, never came close to 61 before or after his record setting year. A one year spike. So how do you take a record from someone in the 'roid era? Obviously, Bonds juiced and hit Hr's left and right, but his record year was a one year spike. Never came close to that total before or after. Like I said, it's all or nothing. Baseball will NEVER erase any record, questionable or not. It would really be the end of what baseball is, where numbers rule. JMO. -- lancer

Good point Lancer. I'm afraid you are right. We'll just have to hope the fans and Hall of Fame voters do what MLB would not do (protect the integrity of the game).

Terry