Baseball - At Last ! (1 Viewer)

But nobody used them to get bigger and stronger...they all used them to recover from injuries...so it shouldn't count against them!

Amazing how a 'confession' can not be a true 'confession,' but a way to get people off your back.
 
Hi Louis,

As much as I agree that the issue of Steriods and other performance enhancing drugs are a major black eye for Baseball I think that wiping away of all the records and statistics would cause more harm than good. These guys will forever pay for their lapses in judgement and will not make the Hall so I believe this will be punishment enough. The person who really needs to be spanked on this is our pal the commissioner and his office because they didnt have the guts to stand up and do something about it when they knew full well what some players were doing. This is where the main issue lies in my opinion having a commissioner who owned a team and then "gave" it to his daughter to run when he took over as commissioner and sees his profit margin affected if he does or doesnt do something about the drugs was just plain stupid. He has done a lot of good for the game in recent years but on this issue he fell far short of the mark. I also dont want to get into the Mitchell Report and its obvious shortfalls but that report does need to be be relooked and the list of players is probably missing a few significant names. But thats not for me to worry about. I think that these guys will get what they deserve on vote day and they will all fade away.

Dave
 
Brad - to quote my favorite German soldier..."I know nothing!, Nothing!" :rolleyes:

And Dave, as a Brewers fan I can join in the denouncing of the comissioner. He couldn't run a team, much less a league!

What role does the player's union play in all this? They were the ones who refused any testing (and let's be honest, they've called the shots for a while now). I think they need to accept some of the blame for the steriod era.
 
I respect fellow forum member viewpoints and in no way condone the Steroid era, but I offer up an alternate view.

In a way, who cares, I mean, its over, done with, a done deal. Let's move on and enjoy the game today. I still like Big Mac, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, etc etc etc, they entertained me and I truly don't believe they are bad people. They got caught up in their profession and made bad decisions which have repercussions. I really believe the only reason this is still news is because of the sportswriters (why they wield so much power is beyond me, voting, etc.) Why is their opinion more important than the general public?

Furthermore, the fact is baseball didn't test, so therefore we are looking at an event with different "rules" than when it occurred, that is never a good thing. Also, do we want to talk about steroid use in the 70s 80s in the NFL? Don't thinks so. STeroid use by hall of famers in MLB, don't think so. There is so much more to this than the Steroid era of MLB. Steroids have been around a long time and used for a long time, this group didn't invent them. Finally, why not kick Ty Cobb out of the Hall of Fame, afterall, he was a habitual drunk, known drug user, I believe he was implicated in the death of somebody............. Bascially, what's done is done. MLB is now testing, good for them.

I just think this is an overdone issue and Mcguire is not some bad guy, he is just a phenomenal athlete who made a bad decision on a number of levels in the heat of competition.

My 2 cents
Tom
 
DMNamiot said:
Hi Louis,

As much as I agree that the issue of Steriods and other performance enhancing drugs are a major black eye for Baseball I think that wiping away of all the records and statistics would cause more harm than good. These guys will forever pay for their lapses in judgement and will not make the Hall so I believe this will be punishment enough. The person who really needs to be spanked on this is our pal the commissioner and his office because they didnt have the guts to stand up and do something about it when they knew full well what some players were doing. This is where the main issue lies in my opinion having a commissioner who owned a team and then "gave" it to his daughter to run when he took over as commissioner and sees his profit margin affected if he does or doesnt do something about the drugs was just plain stupid. He has done a lot of good for the game in recent years but on this issue he fell far short of the mark. I also dont want to get into the Mitchell Report and its obvious shortfalls but that report does need to be be relooked and the list of players is probably missing a few significant names. But thats not for me to worry about. I think that these guys will get what they deserve on vote day and they will all fade away.

Dave
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Great reasoning, but the problem is who is voting, it is not the will of the public, but a select group who vote their own interests and morals. But in premise, you are definitely right, in the end, there will be a "price" paid by these guys for their poor decisions. Classic example is Dave Parker, he was a player who had it all, speed (stolen bases), power (home runs), fielding (gold glove as a right fielder), arm strength (remember 79 all star game, threw a guy out at the plate from the warning track), world championships (pirates, reds, A's), yet he will not make the hall, why? b/c a sportswriter remembers the fact that he used cocaine and was part of the Pirates drug conspiracy.

TD
 
Can anyone tell me the date the Baseball starts this year?

Rob
 
Rob said:
Can anyone tell me the date the Baseball starts this year?

Rob
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Different opening game dates for different teams, but the season opens first week of April. Training camps (pre-season), Feb-March. -- Al
 
I tend to agree that the records of these guys should be wiped off the books. It's never going to happen though. Not the least because MLB was complicit in this practice. Remember that the great home race between McGwire and Sosa came about when MLB was struggling to regain fans after the strike. They knew what was going on, but didn't care. It was good for business. Imagine no one breaks Maris' record for decades and suddenly two guys crush it in the same season.

On the issue of whether these guys will ever get in the HOF, don't underestimate the capacity of people to forget. It happens all the time. There was a recent outcry to release members of the Manson family. The tendency is to say enough is enough who cares anymore with the passage of time. It's just not the use of steroids here, but lying about it and/or covering it up for years. McGwire made millions from the game and there are no real consequences for him. He's now coaching for the Cards.
 
I may be a little harsh here, but the obvious self-serving apology is an attempt to avoid the 'Pete Rose Curse'. The public will not forgive if one does not act contrite and take responsibility for one's actions. The apology is too late for me and a lot of other people, as this forum shows. Maris and Aaron still rule in my book. Baseball had the formula to save itself after the strike and that formula was a natural, unenhanced Cal Ripken. He did his best but Baseball obviously decided HR's were the way to go. I guess hard work and dedication weren't good enough for the powers that be. Too bad. It was all so unneccesary. -- lancer
 
lancer said:
I may be a little harsh here, but the obvious self-serving apology is an attempt to avoid the 'Pete Rose Curse'. The public will not forgive if one does not act contrite and take responsibility for one's actions. The apology is too late for me and a lot of other people, as this forum shows. Maris and Aaron still rule in my book. Baseball had the formula to save itself after the strike and that formula was a natural, unenhanced Cal Ripken. He did his best but Baseball obviously decided HR's were the way to go. I guess hard work and dedication weren't good enough for the powers that be. Too bad. It was all so unneccesary. -- lancer
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You bring up an interesting issue. Do you think Pete Rose should be in the hall of fame?

I will give you my answer, based on baseball ability, there is no doubt in my mind, a unanimous YES. That is what the Hall of Fame to me is about, I just can't find a reason to care about his gambling and if you think about it, it was not the gambling that really did him in, but his denial in trying to save face. The man is being penalized b/c of not apologizing b/c of obvious embarassment and self preservation (being too proud).

I dunno, I am 37 and this stuff just doesn't bother me as much as others.

I still think its hard to say wipe out record books, never let them in the hall, etc, you are saying they cheated, yet, the rules weren't necessarily enforced or in place at the time. I have a hard time with that I guess.

TD
 
tdubel said:
I respect fellow forum member viewpoints and in no way condone the Steroid era, but I offer up an alternate view.

In a way, who cares, I mean, its over, done with, a done deal. Let's move on and enjoy the game today. I still like Big Mac, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, etc etc etc, they entertained me and I truly don't believe they are bad people. They got caught up in their profession and made bad decisions which have repercussions. I really believe the only reason this is still news is because of the sportswriters (why they wield so much power is beyond me, voting, etc.) Why is their opinion more important than the general public?

Furthermore, the fact is baseball didn't test, so therefore we are looking at an event with different "rules" than when it occurred, that is never a good thing. Also, do we want to talk about steroid use in the 70s 80s in the NFL? Don't thinks so. STeroid use by hall of famers in MLB, don't think so. There is so much more to this than the Steroid era of MLB. Steroids have been around a long time and used for a long time, this group didn't invent them. Finally, why not kick Ty Cobb out of the Hall of Fame, afterall, he was a habitual drunk, known drug user, I believe he was implicated in the death of somebody............. Bascially, what's done is done. MLB is now testing, good for them.

I just think this is an overdone issue and Mcguire is not some bad guy, he is just a phenomenal athlete who made a bad decision on a number of levels in the heat of competition.

My 2 cents
Tom
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I agree with this 100%, no, 1000%.

As a professional athlete, you get paid to play a game, so some chose to take drugs to perform better, get more recognition and most importantly, get more money.

Sports is all about money, whether it be owners, players, managers, coaches; I want MINE.

You can't go back and wipe out records based on who got caught cheating; what about those who did not?

Don't blame the players, blame the leagues. When baseball was in the toilet after the players strike, the home run chase between "Mike Mcquire and Sammy Souser" (to quote a famous ex Massachusetts senator) put baseball back on the map.

PED's and sports go hand in hand, olympic athletes, pro athletes, college athletes, high school athletes; whatever it takes to get an edge.

If taking steriods makes you stronger and you hit more home runs and you make more money, that is all these guys care about, end of story.
 
Warrior put the one element in I forgot, MONEY, owners, league, players, tv, etc. Jeez, as a CPA, how could I forget that??

One other thing, personally, my biggest respect should and is paid to Cal Ripken Jr. Class all the way, he did it the right way and he will be forever recognized for it, so while I say on one hand, the others are a done deal, I also think this particular player deserves and is on a higher pedastal(sp.).


TD
 
It was the lying that gets these people in trouble. Personally I don,t care what these guys did. McGwire was faceing pitchers that were on steroids, so it evens out.
What I really can,t stand are the teary eyed confessions. McGwire cried on tv while being interviewed by Costas, was listening to a local radio show and he cried again when asked the same question, come on, this is not something that just suddenly happened.
As George said, it's all about money.
This guy was not real big with the press during his home run race with Sosa, I wouldn't be surprised that this time around the press will bother him to the point that he will just walk away from the hitting coach job or the Cardinals will put a ban on the press talking to him.
And I laughed out loud when George reminded me of T. Kennedys famous quote, ole TK must have had quite a load on when he said that!
Gary
 
The reason they did it, they were idles, they figured nobody would blame them for being better. The fact the Owners trainers and some players knew they were doing it does not make it right. I don't feel any of the players mentioned should ever be in the Hall of Fame, they should set up another building funded by the New Baseball League, and call it The Hall of SHAME. I don't know how any true Baseball fan can support these whinny overpaid athletes. I'm not really sure what year it really started to happen, but the 50's,60's and maybe early 70's, those players did it the right way. I hope they don't let any of the aforementioned players into the Hall.:)
 
Phantom Warrior said:
As far as I'm concerned, Roger Maris still has the most home runs in a season and Hank Aaron still has the most career home runs. Counting steroid and HGH aided home runs is no different then letting major league players use aluminium bats.

Terry
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That's right - no hall of fame tainted numbers and no hall of fame. Whiny self-serving apologies don't interest me. If McGuire said he made a mistake and if he got MLB to erase his statistics for the years he was on steroids, that would be different. But "I'm sorry - I made a mistake - now let me be a batting coach and get into the hall of fame" apology is garbage.

The same goes for Bonds, A-rod, Clemens and several other very prominent players who from the before and after shots clearly bulked up on steroids. Delete the stats from the years they were on steroids. In the case of Clemens, did steroids lengthen his career with several years of good stats for an aging pitcher - you bet. How different from how Nolan Ryan did the same career lenthining, probably without steroids, just with hard work.

Terry
 
Phantom Warrior said:
That's right - no hall of fame tainted numbers and no hall of fame. Whiny self-serving apologies don't interest me. If McGuire said he made a mistake and if he got MLB to erase his statistics for the years he was on steroids, that would be different. But "I'm sorry - I made a mistake - now let me be a batting coach and get into the hall of fame" apology is garbage.

The same goes for Bonds, A-rod, Clemens and several other very prominent players who from the before and after shots clearly bulked up on steroids. Delete the stats from the years they were on steroids. In the case of Clemens, did steroids lengthen his career with several years of good stats for an aging pitcher - you bet. How different from how Nolan Ryan did the same career lenthining, probably without steroids, just with hard work.

Terry
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Terry,
Good points no doubt, but one thing I think that is missing here in all of our comments is my comment regarding the past (not talking about Maris or Dimaggio, Mantle), I am talking about the 70s, 80s (Nolan, Schmidt, Rice Murphy), I don't think we want to know what they did, just like we don't want to know about the NFL. Steroids were around a lot longer than just Big Mac, Bonds and Sosa, they just went after a record and it garners more attention. I am not accusing any of the older players, but again, I am a gambler and I will bet odds on that the 70s and 80s were tainted.

If you disagree with steroids, what about the candy dishes of speed, amphetamines, etc that were part of every pro locker room regardless of sport for years (colleges too, ie Oklahoma).

We all have focused on the last round of folks and quite honestly overcooked them (IMO), I am willing to move on, I wish the press would too. Look, Big Mac is an idiot for not coming clean years ago, but embarassment, pride and fear are driving forces that cause ill informed decisions.

Again, just my opinion, I vote give them a break, its over and baseball is better for it in the end.

Maybe they can start turning themselves into positive role models by speaking about the wrongs of drug use.

TD
 
We had a full page write up here today in our paper and the boys and i at (Mcguire) work,during smoko never heard of him.Why its in our papers has got me stuffed so i gather it must be huge in the states.What some will do for money in the long run only cheating yourself sometimes i think the money comes before the love of the game.
 
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