Britains Greatest Battle Poll - National Army Museum (1 Viewer)

[Fort-Stamford]

Should of added Agincourt (1415) to your list. The British were outnumbered 5 to 1, and sustained a victory for the ages.

Sorry, did not see the requirement that the battles must be after the "establishment of the modern British Army". Then that would also knock out Waterloo. {sm2}

 

[glossman]

Sorry, did not see the requirement that the battles must be after the "establishment of the modern British Army". Then that would also knock out Waterloo. {sm2}

The Battle of Waterloo took place in 1815. The Battle of Naseby was fought in 1645 during the English Civil Wars. I think Naseby is chronologically the earliest battle on the NAM List. If Naseby is in, then Waterloo must be included too.

Without being too pedantic, Great Britain was formed in 1707, so any battle before this year should strictly not be included. If this is so, then Naseby, Blenheim, Lexington and Concord and some others are out, but Waterloo stays in.

Raymond.

 

[jazzeum]

This is the leader board so far:

Waterloo 316
D-Day Normandy 297
Imphal/Kohima 146
Musa Qala 146
Rorke's Drift 130
El Alamein 125

 

[lancer]

I find the inclusion of Rorke's Drift somewhat odd. It was a fantastic battle in the grand heroic style against overwhelming odds, but it was a really small affair in terms of British troops involved and it certainly had no grand influence on the Zulu War or anything outside of the war. The British victory at the drift influenced nothing other than the garrison's own survival (obviously of paramount importance to the garrison), but it did not effect further British or Zulu actions in terms of strategy. It was an isolated event. How does this qualify as Britain's greatest battle? -- Al

 

[jazzeum]

The National Army Museum website cites the following criteria:

• political, historical and cultural impact
• challenges faced by the Army
• innovative use of strategy and tactics
• global spread of British Army deployments
• recognition of the vital contributions of Commonwealth troops

Great could include losses. For example, the loss of the American colonies was obviously a disaster for the Empire. However, although Lexington Concord was a phyrric victory for the English, Yorktown was of more significance. Similarly, what about the Battle of France in 1940? That had a significant impact on WW II.

 

[Mitch]

Their polls and questions always have strange terms of reference so, its not surprising what is added and what is not knowing some of the people involved.
Mitch

I find the inclusion of Rorke's Drift somewhat odd. It was a fantastic battle in the grand heroic style against overwhelming odds, but it was a really small affair in terms of British troops involved and it certainly had no grand influence on the Zulu War or anything outside of the war. The British victory at the drift influenced nothing other than the garrison's own survival (obviously of paramount importance to the garrison), but it did not effect further British or Zulu actions in terms of strategy. It was an isolated event. How does this qualify as Britain's greatest battle? -- Al

 

[swalterh]

The allied victory could also be seen as a step back to monarchy. While Napoleon did make himself emperor, his system did encourage material progress and meritocracy. The allies Congress of Vienna worked "great" until one afternoon in 1848.

And 1854, 1866, 1870-71. All years of conflict between European Great Powers. The very thing the agreements @ the Congress of Vienna were designed to prevent.

IMO 1848 seems to have more in common with 1956, 1968, 1988-91. 1988-91 being years of actual progress as opposed to setback.

 

[swalterh]

Another good point. As I said I look forward to seeing a list of USA's greatest Battles. Care to compile one ?

List of America’s 20 Greatest Battles (note: includes all services, not just US Army)

Trenton/Princeton
Saratoga
Yorktown
Chesapeake Bay (Ft. McHenry, etc...)
Lake Erie
New Orleans
Chancellorsville (CSA)
Gettysburg
Vicksburg
Atlanta
Petersburg/Richmond
San Juan Hill
Meuse-Argonne
Midway
Strategic Bombing Offensive over Europe
Normandy Campaign
Battle of the Bulge
Iwo Jima
Okinawa
Strategic Bombing Offensive over Japan (Including dropping of A-Bombs)

 

[The Military Workshop]

And 1854, 1866, 1870-71. All years of conflict between European Great Powers. The very thing the agreements @ the Congress of Vienna were designed to prevent.

IMO 1848 seems to have more in common with 1956, 1968, 1988-91. 1988-91 being years of actual progress as opposed to setback.

Shane,
What are you referring to in relation 1956, 1968, 1988-91 ?
Good to see the USA list.
Regards
Brett

 

[lancer]

List of America’s 20 Greatest Battles (note: includes all services, not just US Army)

Trenton/Princeton
Saratoga
Yorktown
Chesapeake Bay (Ft. McHenry, etc...)
Lake Erie
New Orleans
Chancellorsville (CSA)
Gettysburg
Vicksburg
Atlanta
Petersburg/Richmond
San Juan Hill
Meuse-Argonne
Midway
Strategic Bombing Offensive over Europe
Normandy Campaign
Battle of the Bulge
Iwo Jima
Okinawa
Strategic Bombing Offensive over Japan (Including dropping of A-Bombs)

Good list. I would subtract the two air offensives (just to keep things on the ground, so to speak), and add Guadalcanal and Inchon. -- Al

 

[swalterh]

Shane,
What are you referring to in relation 1956, 1968, 1988-91 ?
Good to see the USA list.
Regards
Brett

Thanks Brett,

I voted for El Alamein by the way. Monty's victory over Rommel was an important turning point in WWII. The battle completely destroyed the German's strategic initiative against the western allies. Plus it was very much a Commonwealth effort what with all of the various formations representing multiple nations at this particular battle.

1956 - Hungarian Revolt
1968 - Prague Spring
1988-91 - Eventual Collapse of the Soviet State

Some of the 1848 Royalist suppressions, especially in the Austrian Empire, were particularly reactionary and IMO bear resemblance to the Soviet Armed Response to the uprisings in the Eastern Block during the Cold War.

 

[Scott]

Thanks Brett,

I voted for El Alamein by the way. Monty's victory over Rommel was an important turning point in WWII. The battle completely destroyed the German's strategic initiative against the western allies. Plus it was very much a Commonwealth effort what with all of the various formations representing multiple nations at this particular battle.

1956 - Hungarian Revolt
1968 - Prague Spring
1988-91 - Eventual Collapse of the Soviet State

Some of the 1848 Royalist suppressions, especially in the Austrian Empire, were particularly reactionary and IMO bear resemblance to the Soviet Armed Response to the uprisings in the Eastern Block during the Cold War.

My point about Waterloo is that the reactionary allied victory could have been responsible for 1848. I had to read Kissinger's book, A World Restored;.., about the Congress of Vienna and Metternich 40 years ago and I don't remember much of it. perhaps the "great" victory wasn't much in the long run.

 

[swalterh]

Prussia/Germany’s 20 Greatest Battles:

Hohenfriedberg
Rossbach
Leuthen
Leipzig
Waterloo
Dybbol
Königgrätz
Wörth
Gravelotte - St. Privat
Sedan
Tannenberg
East Africa
Poland
France
Denmark – Norway
Barbarossa
Gazala
Kasserine Pass
Arnhem
Hurtgen Forrest

 

[Mitch]

Not really to do with the thread. but, Kiev and the fantastic military encirclements of Russian troops and, the battles for Kharkov.

Not sure about Hurtgen or Kasserine probably they would be in the long list of worst US battles but, that and other nations is another thread
Mitch

Prussia/Germany’s 20 Greatest Battles:

Hohenfriedberg
Rossbach
Leuthen
Leipzig
Waterloo
Dybbol
Königgrätz
Wörth
Gravelotte - St. Privat
Sedan
Tannenberg
East Africa
Poland
France
Denmark – Norway
Barbarossa
Gazala
Kasserine Pass
Arnhem
Hurtgen Forrest

 

[swalterh]

French 20 Greatest Battles:

Monongahela (Braddock’s Defeat)
Ft. William Henry
Storming of the Bastille
Wissembourg
Valmy
Lodi
Pyramids
Marengo
Ulm
Austerlitz
Jena-Auerstadt
Eylau
Friedland
Wagram
Campaign in France 1814
Quatre-Bras & Ligny
Solferino
Marne
Verdun
Liberation of Paris (1944)

 

[Jack]

Prussia/Germany’s 20 Greatest Battles:

Hohenfriedberg
Rossbach
Leuthen
Leipzig
Waterloo
Dybbol
Königgrätz
Wörth
Gravelotte - St. Privat
Sedan
Tannenberg
East Africa
Poland
France
Denmark – Norway
Barbarossa
Gazala
Kasserine Pass
Arnhem
Hurtgen Forrest

In terms of a battle leading to the successful conclusion of a war, it is not a win/loss ratio that I would be writing home about! If you take a broader picture of many of the battles having the ultimate aim of securing Germany's position in Europe the situation looks even worse. Even a victory like Sedan had unfortunate repercussions for the Germans in the long run.

 

[Jack]

Good list. I would subtract the two air offensives (just to keep things on the ground, so to speak), and add Guadalcanal and Inchon. -- Al

I wonder if we divided the air campaigns into battles whether it would be possible to assess the value of strategic bombing more accurately. For example, the RAF might have a clearer history if we could compare the success of the Battle of the Ruhr with the Battle of Berlin and so on. I have not read widely on the American efforts but I assume that they would likewise benefit.

 

[swalterh]

In terms of a battle leading to the successful conclusion of a war, it is not a win/loss ratio that I would be writing home about! If you take a broader picture of many of the battles having the ultimate aim of securing Germany's position in Europe the situation looks even worse. Even a victory like Sedan had unfortunate repercussions for the Germans in the long run.

I’d say the Germans are currently fairly well off. Unified country, democracy, strong economy, kick butt soccer (football) team. So, how long of a run are we talking about here?

There was a reason Margaret Thatcher and Francois Mitterrand were concerned about the potential of a unified Germany after the Eastern Block collapsed. If the US was to abandon its current military commitments in Europe there would be reason for even greater concern (There were some in the US Congress who wanted to withdraw all troops from Europe after the Cold War, but Thatcher would have none of it). The reality is that Germany has been the most powerful country in Europe since 1871 and was only subdued when all of her European enemies were joined by friends from across the seas.

Germany wins both World Wars without the US, period.

Even the great Allen Brooke acknowledges in his memoirs that December 7, 1941 was the greatest day of World War II. Historians spend a lot of time discussing the turning points of the war. All occurred after the fateful attack on Pearl Harbor. Only the American political and economic system could match that of the Germans. God save Lend-Lease.

I think that the 1980’s provide a pretty fair contemporary sampling of what US industrial capacity is capable of when properly directed. The ultimate victory that secured Germany’s position in Europe came in 1991.

When considering which battles to include in a list for the Germans, I selected those that firmly cemented the martial reputation of the Prussian and German armed forces. Bottom Line: No matter what flag they serve, Germans make d@mn fine soldiers.

 

[Jack]

I’d say the Germans are currently fairly well off. Unified country, democracy, strong economy, kick butt soccer (football) team. So, how long of a run are we talking about here?

There was a reason Margaret Thatcher and Francois Mitterrand were concerned about the potential of a unified Germany after the Eastern Block collapsed. If the US was to abandon its current military commitments in Europe there would be reason for even greater concern (There were some in the US Congress who wanted to withdraw all troops from Europe after the Cold War, but Thatcher would have none of it). The reality is that Germany has been the most powerful country in Europe since 1871 and was only subdued when all of her European enemies were joined by friends from across the seas.

Germany wins both World Wars without the US, period.

Even the great Allen Brooke acknowledges in his memoirs that December 7, 1941 was the greatest day of World War II. Historians spend a lot of time discussing the turning points of the war. All occurred after the fateful attack on Pearl Harbor. Only the American political and economic system could match that of the Germans. God save Lend-Lease.

I think that the 1980’s provide a pretty fair contemporary sampling of what US industrial capacity is capable of when properly directed. The ultimate victory that secured Germany’s position in Europe came in 1991.

When considering which battles to include in a list for the Germans, I selected those that firmly cemented the martial reputation of the Prussian and German armed forces. Bottom Line: No matter what flag they serve, Germans make d@mn fine soldiers.

Shane

I do not dispute the qualities of Germans as soldiers nor do I dispute the contribution of the US to the defeat of Nazism. The strength and value of the modern German nation is surely in spite of the qualities they have displayed on the battlefield in the 20th century rather than a result - quite the opposite of nations such as my own who celebarte our wartime record (often rather simplistically I admit) as an act of nation building. Though Germany might well dominate these types of discussions - and certainly those conducted in Europe - but she barely figures in the day to day discussions here in Australia and not as a matter of jealously but as a matter of disinterest. Our eyes are firmly fixed northward. As for a great soccer team - its like being the world champion synchronised swimmer - sure...you're very good...but it is still synchronised swimming!{sm4}
Jack

 

[waynepoo]

I’d say the Germans are currently fairly well off. Unified country, democracy, strong economy, kick butt soccer (football) team. So, how long of a run are we talking about here?

There was a reason Margaret Thatcher and Francois Mitterrand were concerned about the potential of a unified Germany after the Eastern Block collapsed. If the US was to abandon its current military commitments in Europe there would be reason for even greater concern (There were some in the US Congress who wanted to withdraw all troops from Europe after the Cold War, but Thatcher would have none of it). The reality is that Germany has been the most powerful country in Europe since 1871 and was only subdued when all of her European enemies were joined by friends from across the seas.

Germany wins both World Wars without the US, period.
Even the great Allen Brooke acknowledges in his memoirs that December 7, 1941 was the greatest day of World War II. Historians spend a lot of time discussing the turning points of the war. All occurred after the fateful attack on Pearl Harbor. Only the American political and economic system could match that of the Germans. God save Lend-Lease.

I think that the 1980’s provide a pretty fair contemporary sampling of what US industrial capacity is capable of when properly directed. The ultimate victory that secured Germany’s position in Europe came in 1991.

When considering which battles to include in a list for the Germans, I selected those that firmly cemented the martial reputation of the Prussian and German armed forces. Bottom Line: No matter what flag they serve, Germans make d@mn fine soldiers.

Agree about WW2, but it was only the potential threat posed by the late entry into the Great War by the US that helped (only one of many factors) prompt the great German offensives of 1918. It was then the efforts of all the Allied armies that defeated the German army in the field (and defeated it was). US military action in the field late in 1918 played a large role but was not in itself decisive.
Wayne.