Britains Greatest Battle Poll - National Army Museum (1 Viewer)

[The Military Workshop]

Thread on Army battles gets reopened but I think I will have to start a thread on Britains Greatest air battles{sm4}. The 20 options would be Battle of Britain :wink2:

Seems like a couple of people are having a hard time accepting the National Army Museum did not include the RAF in their Army battle poll^&grin.

I voted for Normandy/D day for the sheer scale of the operation and the planning involved (yes I do know a few other countries were involved also). As far as battles go Rorkes Drift is such a great story but as somebody mentioned only really affected those in the battle. Chelmsford was probably quite grateful for the opportunity to divert people from thinking about the day before. No surprise Waterloo up there and as a kid growing up learning British history this is the one that stood out for me.

Brett

 

[Mitch]

El alamein would and still is my choice. twenty great air battles of the RAF would be a great thread. Lots would be included from Dam's to sinking the Tirpitz
Mitch

Thread on Army battles gets reopened but I think I will have to start a thread on Britains Greatest air battles{sm4}. The 20 options would be Battle of Britain :wink2:

Seems like a couple of people are having a hard time accepting the National Army Museum did not include the RAF in their Army battle poll^&grin.

I voted for Normandy/D day for the sheer scale of the operation and the planning involved (yes I do know a few other countries were involved also). As far as battles go Rorkes Drift is such a great story but as somebody mentioned only really affected those in the battle. Chelmsford was probably quite grateful for the opportunity to divert people from thinking about the day before. No surprise Waterloo up there and as a kid growing up learning British history this is the one that stood out for me.

Brett

 

[Jack]

El alamein would and still is my choice. twenty great air battles of the RAF would be a great thread. Lots would be included from Dam's to sinking the Tirpitz
Mitch

While we are talking RAF I would like to thread jack for a moment. I recall hearing that the RAF has only shot down one aircraft since WW2. Can that be true?

 

[aujj65]

While we are talking RAF I would like to thread jack for a moment. I recall hearing that the RAF has only shot down one aircraft since WW2. Can that be true?

Quite possibly, due to the nature of most of the conflicts that the UK has been in since WW2, it's very likely that the planes shot down by the British have all been by the Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Navy.

Jeff

 

[Jack]

A look at RAF (all branches fall under the banner for me) involvement from 1945 can find many kills from pilots flying their own aircraft to RAF pilots flying in US squadrons and gaining kills in things like Sabre's. There are many to choose from but, five air kills were undertaken in the Falklands though several other aircraft were damaged but were not counted. Bosnia and areas down there saw brit kills and, in Iraq and other associated areas there were air kills. My brother's squadron also has air kills from recent air operations. More likely propaganda that we have one air kill. the air at the moment cries for running down any brit involvement in anything since the dawn of time!!LOL
Mitch

Perhaps my memory is at fault. I may have been reading an article on the Falklands War and it may have been that the first kill there was the second kill since WW2. Would Fleet Air Arm pilots would feel themselves distinct from the RAF?

 

[johnnybach]

Thread on Army battles gets reopened but I think I will have to start a thread on Britains Greatest air battles{sm4}. The 20 options would be Battle of Britain :wink2:

Seems like a couple of people are having a hard time accepting the National Army Museum did not include the RAF in their Army battle poll^&grin.

I voted for Normandy/D day for the sheer scale of the operation and the planning involved (yes I do know a few other countries were involved also). As far as battles go Rorkes Drift is such a great story but as somebody mentioned only really affected those in the battle. Chelmsford was probably quite grateful for the opportunity to divert people from thinking about the day before. No surprise Waterloo up there and as a kid growing up learning British history this is the one that stood out for me.

Brett

I didn't vote - as I think the question was flawed from the very beginning. As explained later in the thread, it turned out - they wanted to restrict the question posted to Army involvement.

As to voting for D-Day as an Army battle - was there no Air support overflying Normandy before, during and after the actual landing? How did the paratroops get there? Did the Army swim there? Were sailors (like my Dad - Royal Navy) NOT helping in the bombardment of coastal areas and supporting the landing craft who put them on the beach - and at great cost to life - evacuating wounded troops? How did the Tanks, trucks, ammo, fuel, food etc, and two Mulberry harbours get there?

Visit the Beautifully kept Military Cemetaries, like the one just outside Arromanche - and you will find your answer. D-Day was very much a combined services operation, and men from all three Services rest there. To even think that this was an "Army Battle" does a great dis-service to the men of the other services who fought and died there. I just couldn't vote.

(PS I was in the British Army too - and though much fun was frequently directed at Sailors and Airmen - the "Modern Army" couldn't operate without their contribution to the modern mix of deployment for a fight - as maybe the Falklands demonstrated better than most.) jb

 

[The Military Workshop]

While we are talking RAF I would like to thread jack for a moment. I recall hearing that the RAF has only shot down one aircraft since WW2. Can that be true?

I think the word Skyjack is more appropriate^&grin

 

[The Military Workshop]

I didn't vote - as I think the question was flawed from the very beginning. As explained later in the thread, it turned out - they wanted to restrict the question posted to Army involvement.

As to voting for D-Day as an Army battle - was there no Air support overflying Normandy before, during and after the actual landing? How did the paratroops get there? Did the Army swim there? Were sailors (like my Dad - Royal Navy) NOT helping in the bombardment of coastal areas and supporting the landing craft who put them on the beach - and at great cost to life - evacuating wounded troops? How did the Tanks, trucks, ammo, fuel, food etc, and two Mulberry harbours get there?

Visit the Beautifully kept Military Cemetaries, like the one just outside Arromanche - and you will find your answer. D-Day was very much a combined services operation, and men from all three Services rest there. To even think that this was an "Army Battle" does a great dis-service to the men of the other services who fought and died there. I just couldn't vote.

(PS I was in the British Army too - and though much fun was frequently directed at Sailors and Airmen - the "Modern Army" couldn't operate without their contribution to the modern mix of deployment for a fight - as maybe the Falklands demonstrated better than most.) jb

JB (and RAF fans),
Your points are well taken and I was very much aware that ships and planes were involved in Normandy/D Day. However I do not think it unreasonable for a British Army Museum to take some pride in what the Army did. Can you imagine the complaints if they had not included D Day in the Poll.

Yet again I will point out this is a Poll / thread based on one by the Army museum. It is not a matter of trying to "restrict" it to Army the simple fact is it is an Army subject. I doubt RAF Hendon Museum, Duxford or Navy Museums will be displaying Waterloo or Zulu War items any time soon.

Regards
Brett

 

[Jack]

I think the word Skyjack is more appropriate^&grin

Do all your threads end up getting closed...or just some of them?{sm4}{sm4}

 

[Phantom Warrior]

While we are talking RAF I would like to thread jack for a moment. I recall hearing that the RAF has only shot down one aircraft since WW2. Can that be true?

Not quite true - but it also depends how you count them. In any case there are very few RAF air-to-air encounters after WWII and as a result, very few RAF air victories. The RN probably has more just from the Falklands. At the beginning of the Arab-Israeli war in 1948, several waves of Egyptian Mk.IX Spitfires attacked an RAF base and RAF Mk.XVIII Spitfires shot down 4 Egyptian planes. In the Korean War RAF pilots on exchange flying US F-86 Sabres shot down 7 MiGs. Falkland Islands - of the 23 Argentine aircraft shot down (air to air and surface to air), 5 were shot down by RAF pilots flying Sea Harriers. I don't think the RAF had any air victories in the Gulf War, No Fly Zone, Iraq War, Bosnia or Lybia. So the answer could be as few as 4 or as many as 16.

Terry

 

[Jack]

Not quite true - but it also depends how you count them. In any case there are very few RAF air-to-air encounters after WWII and as a result, very few RAF air victories. The RN probably has more just from the Falklands. At the beginning of the Arab-Israeli war in 1948, several waves of Egyptian Mk.IX Spitfires attacked an RAF base and RAF Mk.XVIII Spitfires shot down 4 Egyptian planes. In the Korean War RAF pilots on exchange flying US F-86 Sabres shot down 6 or 7 MiGs. Falkland Islands - of the 23 Argentine aircraft shot down (air to air and surface to air), 5 were shot down by RAF pilots flying Sea Harriers. I don't think the RAF had any air victories in the Gulf War, No Fly Zone, Iraq War, Bosnia or Lybia. So the answer could be as few as 4 or as many as 15.

Terry

Thanks for that Terry. Mitch sent a PM regading the Korean war victories as well, which I was appreciative of, but isn't it a real indicator of how different warfare has become? The UK has traditionally pulled its weight in terms of military commitments - perhaps at times even over extending itself - yet there has just been a lack of air to air combat opportunities. That said, given the cost of modern aircraft, that score of 15 probably represents a billion dollars.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Thanks for that Terry. Mitch sent a PM regading the Korean war victories as well, which I was appreciative of, but isn't it a real indicator of how different warfare has become? The UK has traditionally pulled its weight in terms of military commitments - perhaps at times even over extending itself - yet there has just been a lack of air to air combat opportunities. That said, given the cost of modern aircraft, that score of 15 probably represents a billion dollars.

It's also a reflection of the opposition and Allies. The US is probably the leader because of big totals in Korea - some consider the last major air to air war, and significant numbers in Vietnam, the Gulf War and Iraq. A big reason is they had the best fighter to assume the role of air to air combat like the F-86 in Korea (who else had a comparable fighter) and the F-15 air superiority fighter in recent wars so they got all the air combat roles. They were the only major air force in Vietnam with the Phantom. Israel probably is a major air combat victor because of several wars vs. Egypt and Syria who had large Soviet supplied air forces and used them. Britain had the Sea Harrier in the Falklands but did not have an offensive air combat role in Korea, the Gulf or recent wars - They did have heavy ground attack and CAP duties. Same for France and Canada..The only other air war of note is likely Iran vs Iraq and India vs Pakistan. And another reason for lack of air to air is the development of SAMs - less need to train pilots and maintain a large air force.

Terry

 

[The Military Workshop]

Do all your threads end up getting closed...or just some of them?{sm4}{sm4}

Jack,
Cant let that comment go through as it is, notwithstanding the smiley face.

Click on The Military Workshop and look at Find latest threads started and you will find :

145 threads started since AUG 2007. None closed apart from this one. Closed threads have the padlock on them (I did look at three other forum members to confirm closed threads show up).

Starting a thread does not equate to being responsable for its closure.

I was not even partly responsable in this one as I missed most of the posts leading to the closure and only saw them several hours after closure.

I did request it be re-opened so I reckon that puts me on the plus side of things.

Brett
PS Swords or pistols ?^&grin

 

[waynepoo]

Jack,
Cant let that comment go through as it is, notwithstanding the smiley face.

Click on The Military Workshop and look at Find latest threads started and you will find :

145 threads started since AUG 2007. None closed apart from this one. Closed threads have the padlock on them (I did look at three other forum members to confirm closed threads show up).

Starting a thread does not equate to being responsable for its closure.

I was not even partly responsable in this one as I missed most of the posts leading to the closure and only saw them several hours after closure.

I did request it be re-opened so I reckon that puts me on the plus side of things.

Brett
PS Swords or pistols ?^&grin

In Jacks case most likely pencils.......{sm3}
Wayne.

 

[Jack]

Jack,
Cant let that comment go through as it is, notwithstanding the smiley face.

Click on The Military Workshop and look at Find latest threads started and you will find :

145 threads started since AUG 2007. None closed apart from this one. Closed threads have the padlock on them (I did look at three other forum members to confirm closed threads show up).

Starting a thread does not equate to being responsable for its closure.

I was not even partly responsable in this one as I missed most of the posts leading to the closure and only saw them several hours after closure.

I did request it be re-opened so I reckon that puts me on the plus side of things.

Brett
PS Swords or pistols ?^&grin

Brett

That touched a nerve!! Surely, as your customer, I am always right?

Jack

 

[The Military Workshop]

Brett

That touched a nerve!! Surely, as your customer, I am always right?

Jack

I wont answer that on the grounds it might incriminate me.^&grin

So tell me, when dealing with parents were they always right {sm4}

 

[Jack]

I wont answer that on the grounds it might incriminate me.^&grin

So tell me, when dealing with parents were they always right {sm4}

I have left that world far behind, but since you asked, when they agreed with me, they were right. When they disagreed, they were wrong. Do you see anything we may have in common?

 

[The Military Workshop]

I have left that world far behind, but since you asked, when they agreed with me, they were right. When they disagreed, they were wrong. Do you see anything we may have in common?

Seems we think the same way{sm4}.

 

[TomNT]

In Jacks case most likely pencils.......{sm3}
Wayne.

Who will bring the rubber??:rolleyes2:{sm4}

Tom

 

[johnnybach]

JB (and RAF fans),
Your points are well taken and I was very much aware that ships and planes were involved in Normandy/D Day. However I do not think it unreasonable for a British Army Museum to take some pride in what the Army did. Can you imagine the complaints if they had not included D Day in the Poll.

Yet again I will point out this is a Poll / thread based on one by the Army museum. It is not a matter of trying to "restrict" it to Army the simple fact is it is an Army subject. I doubt RAF Hendon Museum, Duxford or Navy Museums will be displaying Waterloo or Zulu War items any time soon.

Regards
Brett

Well Brett - I've had my say - and have nothing further to add. Let's just say - we have different opinions. Johnnybach.