Britain's Greatest General - National Army Museum (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Regardless of what some think I would say Montgomery or Haig will eventually be the winners
Mitch

Yep, it perhaps shows a change in the public perception of Haig which I'm glad to see, I think Monty has always been popular in the UK since Alamein, despite his faults.

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

I'll see you on that and bid you by post 50! ^&grin:salute:::wink2:%^V

I dunno- seems pretty civil so far and this is post 21 ^&grin^&grin

DMNamiot and Wraith- 3:2 take em or leave em ^&grin

FWIW- I always thought Montgomery was pretty squared away- perhaps some personality flaws but, well so did Patton and Mac so, hey, it is what it is.

Any reason commanders from the middle ages aren't represented? or ancient times?

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

I am not quite sure when the public perception thing is raised just when they were asked in sufficient numbers to make the research substantive. Polls or similar can represent whatever you want. I have read probably what most have read on both and its probably split in academic terms on what their standing is.

For me, I would venture, we probably would have been in a worse position without them than with. Been watching it with great interest.
Mitch

Yep, it perhaps shows a change in the public perception of Haig which I'm glad to see, I think Monty has always been popular in the UK since Alamein, despite his faults.

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

I dunno- seems pretty civil so far and this is post 21 ^&grin^&grin

DMNamiot and Wraith- 3:2 take em or leave em ^&grin

FWIW- I always thought Montgomery was pretty squared away- perhaps some personality flaws but, well so did Patton and Mac so, hey, it is what it is.

Any reason commanders from the middle ages aren't represented? or ancient times?

We need Louis to come and really mix it up, in only the way he can

 

[The Military Workshop]

Gazza,
Good thread.

Was surprised to find I had not heard of Sir Robert Sale (1782 - 1845) who saw service in Afghanistan / India and who was certainly was a man of action.

Will be interesting to see the result. I would have thought Wellington would be ahead of Haig.

Not sure how Smuts makes the list as he was not British and fought against British in the Boer War. Was interesting that he later served in the British War cabinet in WWII.

Regards
Brett

 

[Louis Badolato]

We need Louis to come and really mix it up, in only the way he can

I already made my point. For those who really want to see the truth behind Monty, they need only read my historical fiction novel (if I ever get around to trying to get it published). He was an egotist who may have been concerned for the men under his command, but cared nothing about sacrificing the lives of other British of American troops if it meant advancement of his career.

 

[Mitch]

Sounds like many US generals also. Again, the works of Montgomery are published and well known but, I would caveat reading work from individuals with a clear bias in their tone.
Mitch

 

[Currahee Chris]

We need Louis to come and really mix it up, in only the way he can

Here we go!!! Brad, strap yourself in- this is going to be fun!! ^&grin^&grin:tongue:

 

[jazzeum]

Only 20 posts before I lose my bet

There are also many British generals who are not his biggest fans.

 

[Mitch]

Wow stinging retort, could that be also assumed as, and, has been discussed, as professional envy in a number of instances I have read??? Its all to easy to look back with the hindsight and clarity but, if your going to posit an opinion its best to start not highlighting a fictional work based on ones opinion. I ceratinly could write chapter and verse on the US generals that really cared for their troops lives and base it on non fiction which, ironically, is being discussed in the November 11 deaths on the final day of WWI on another thread, and onwards.

I think instead of hoping for a fight like kids in the playground rather than addressing what facts suits ones position to have addressed not only the personality their actions but the socio economic and political landscape these individuals were acting in. This will without just turn into the slanging match in the Haig thread where those who thought he was a murderer were adament they were right whilst judging from the comfort of their armchairs. Thats very easy to do IMO. Officers in charge will undoubtedly lose troops were Montgomery's losses substantial as compared to other generals its debatable, and is difficult to fully ascertain as each battle has many factors including the value of position the enemy held and the forces placed against them and resources available to both sides and, the tenacity of the enemy you fight against. Many battles Monty faught were against elite forces at key areas. This is just one point without looking at military doctrines and teachings of the time
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Yeah that Monty, the only General to drive Hitlers most gifted and feared soldier out of North Africa and back to Germany, but hey let's not focus on that!! :wink2:^&grin

No his social skills were not good and relations with subordinates poor, but give me a North Africa without Rommel any day .

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

Mitch,

My reputation is riding on this thread being shuttered by post 50 and you guys just ain't cooperatin' :smile2:

 

[Rob]

Mitch,

My reputation is riding on this thread being shuttered by post 50 and you guys just ain't cooperatin' :smile2:

Ok Brad, I'll do my bit! . One thing you can say about Monty, HE never through away mens lives trying to rescue family members!!:wink2:^&grin

There, that should do it!

Rob

 

[Mitch]

I would venture this thread will not be censored or closed as this is an interesting narrative, Its ironic that its always the US posters who call the English generals etc murderers and, when I have spoken with Germans from the war they hold them in rather high esteem.

If an LAH thread is not closed then all bets are off. I have studied Monty for best part of twenty years so, I am looking forward very much to this debate.

Rob...
Good points. He was an English General and then a field Marshall its obvious and expected that he would hold his own military opinion in higher value than subordinates. What general at that time said what do all my officers think and allowed them to make decisions?? I expect discussion but, at the end of the day he was in charge and believed what he was doing would bring about victory for the country but also himself. That to me, is obvious and in every high profile allied officer of both wars but, especiially, WWII

Kirby wrote of Monty
''BM was uncompromisingly, single minded the most conspicuous of all his attributes was his unshakeble confidence in himself an infectious quality which rapidly spread throughout all ranks and, the general public''

I think that quote apart from the rallying qualities and inspiration to his troops could be said of any senior general or higher in any army. Again, we must address the times as well as the man and his actions
Mitch

 

[Wraith]

Well, that definately ought to do it.

 

[jazzeum]

Ok Brad, I'll do my bit! . One thing you can say about Monty, HE never through away mens lives trying to rescue family members!!:wink2:^&grin

There, that should do it!

Rob

Actually Louis agrees with you on this as I think anyone would. I remember a discussion we had here in 2005 or 2006 where Patton's rescue mission was mentioned and criticized for it, as well he should.

 

[jazzeum]

I would venture this thread will not be censored or closed as this is an interesting narrative, Its ironic that its always the US posters who call the English generals etc murderers and, when I have spoken with Germans from the war they hold them in rather high esteem.

If an LAH thread is not closed then all bets are off. I have studied Monty for best part of twenty years so, I am looking forward very much to this debate.

Rob...
Good points. He was an English General and then a field Marshall its obvious and expected that he would hold his own military opinion in higher value than subordinates. What general at that time said what do all my officers think and allowed them to make decisions?? I expect discussion but, at the end of the day he was in charge and believed what he was doing would bring about victory for the country but also himself. That to me, is obvious and in every high profile allied officer of both wars but, especiially, WWII

Kirby wrote of Monty
''BM was uncompromisingly, single minded the most conspicuous of all his attributes was his unshakeble confidence in himself an infectious quality which rapidly spread throughout all ranks and, the general public''

I think that quote apart from the rallying qualities and inspiration to his troops could be said of any senior general or higher in any army. Again, we must address the times as well as the man and his actions
Mitch

He was also concerned about his men (not that everyone else wasn't) but his experiences in WW I left a deep impression about the needless waste of life.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Sounds like many US generals also. Again, the works of Montgomery are published and well known but, I would caveat reading work from individuals with a clear bias in their tone.
Mitch

Mitch,

I have even less use for many US generals, especially Patton and Mark Clark. Perhaps you should read the novel, then check the research underlying it, before you make snap decisions about the "clear bias" in the tone thereof.

Or maybe you should just read up about what Monty did during the invasion of Italy. Alexander ordered him to lead a diversionary force which departed from Messina and landed near the tip of Calabria, the ‘toe’ of Italy, as a diversion to draw the Axis forces south. Monty was strongly opposed to Alexander’s plan, ‘Operation Baytown,’ because he knew there would be no credit in it for him. He detested the use of his forces as a diversion, especially as the plan would only work if the Germans were foolish enough to be drawn into Calabria. They were not.

At Salerno, where the main landings occurred, the American and British forces were getting mauled. Harold Alexander ordered Monty to attack north and relieve the forces in the beach head on September 9th. Monty sat on his hands, holding press conferences and entertaining reporters, despite further orders that ‘it is of the utmost importance that you maintain pressure upon the Germans’ on September 10th and a personal visit from Major General John Harding, Alexander's Chief of Staff telling him how critical it was to move to relieve the forces in the beach head on September 12th.

Despite the fact that photographic reconnaissance proved there were no Germans between his location and the beach head, and the American VI Corps and British 10th Corps from the main landing, Operation Avalanche, were being mauled, Monty dragged his feet and made no effort to move until the 14th.

In the interim, the forces on the beachhead took 9,000 casualties, 5,500 of them suffered by the British 10th Corps. This is simple documented fact.

If it was the other way around, and it was Mark Clark who dragged his feet costing Monty's 8th Army to suffer the casualties, would you insist I was biased if I called Mark Clark a disgrace (which he was)?

 

[Rob]

As I said about Haig in his debate, if you are going to have an adult debate about a person you have to look at him in the round and try not to let emotion get in the way. Lots of people want to focus on Arnhem or his performance in Normandy. But these same people totally ignore that he masterminded the defeat of the Afrika Korp, out thought and out fought Rommel , but they just don't want to discuss it.

The fact that Haig ****** up Royal on the Somme and at Passchendaele does not take anything away from what he did in the last hundred days, in the same way Arnhem has nothing to do with how well Monty performed at Alamein.

Rob

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Rob,

Remember we are discussing British Generals not American Generals if you want to discuss American Generals feel free to start a thread.

As to the issues people have with Haig or Montgomery well they can have all the issues they want as long as the discussion remains civil and factual so please keep that in mind. I dont think Monty was the best General you fielded during the war in fact I believe that the one who is more deserving of that title is General Sir Richard O'Connor. He fought a brilliant campaign in the desert as the field commander for Operation Compass, in which his forces completely destroyed a much larger Italian army, a victory which nearly drove the Axis from Africa, and in turn, led Adolf Hitler to send the German Africa Corps under Erwin Rommel to try and reverse the situation. If it wasnt for the lousy luck of having a driver who couldnt navigate at night and blundering into an enemy patrol he would have likely continued to kick the heck of the Italians and then the Germans.

He spent over two years in an Italian prisoner of war camp. He eventually escaped in December 1943, and in 1944 commanded VIII Corps in Normandy and later during Operation Market Garden.

In honour of his war service, O'Connor was recognised with the highest level of knighthood in two different orders of chivalry. He was also awarded the Distinguished Service Order (twice), Military Cross, French Croix de Guerre and Legion of Honour and served as Aide-de-camp to King George VI. He was also mentioned in despatches nine times for actions in World War I, once in Palestine in 1939 and three times in World War II.

But he isnt in the running and I will still vote for Wellington.

Dave