Castings I have painted (1 Viewer)

[Martin Tabony]

Hi trooper - yes I noticed quite a few details like that. Did you note the female officer marching with drawn sword in one of the clips (there were others). I suppose that some milliput work would be necessary to create female band-persons ( trying desperately to be politically correct here!). Can't really fathom those sword slings - they look unnecessary. Are they trying to hark back to the times when bandsmen wore "dress" swords?

Also, several members of the band were wearing dark, short aprons. Maybe they are optional wear - if you feel that "your" instruments could get caught up in all of those buttons down the front of what looks like a plastron? Must be awkward. Also, the mind boggles if you think what might be trapped between those clashing cymbals!!! Hmmmmm.....

The overall effect, however, is excellent. The beret even looks good with a smart Number 2 dress. I didn't want to give it back when my short hitch was over! I used to have a photo - but some yers ago during a house move, lots of photos were lost. Shame that. jb

I assume you would need the extra miliput to make the hair bun at the back of her head. I can't think why else you would need it.
A nice little video of A.A.C. during public duties. Notice Billy Mott giving them the once over!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yTEhFUIQcQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp

 

[thebritfarmer]

I've never realy looked into the kit worn at the coronation. It wouldn't suprise me if it was simply a cost issue. Two mounted bands 1 dismounted all in one of the most expensive uniforms that is issued (only the guards are issued full dress, other regiments have to buy there own) and at a time when the country was still under rationing. Mounted duties had been carried out in khaki service dress with red and blue with cross belt and sword up until 1947. They hadn't even repaired the bomb damage to Buck House or Horseguards (you can still see it)

Martin

Thanks Martin, I hadn't thought about that and certainly does sound like a very plausible reason.

 

[trooper]

Another possible reason is that at the time of the coronation the Life Guards were stationed with the army of the Rhine and the RHG was the London based unit. There would have been little opportunity to train riders in Germany and so only a dismounted section appeared for the event. Trooper

 

[trooper]

I assume you would need the extra miliput to make the hair bun at the back of her head. I can't think why else you would need it.
A nice little video of A.A.C. during public duties. Notice Billy Mott giving them the once over!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yTEhFUIQcQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp

You are quite right, the heavy, thick tunics effectively disguise the female form and the bun is the most obvious identification. It's surprising how many girls are now to be seen in the bands, and the King's Troop is positively swarming with the little darlings. The unit is now commanded by a woman, most of the trumpeters are female and quite a few of the drivers. Even the Household Cavalry have a female bandsperson and an Indian one at that. So much for the do gooders who always say the army is inherently racist. I think that it is safe to say that every band in the British Army now has a complement of the gentler sex in it's ranks. Trooper

 

[trooper]

Johnny, I think the sword slings and spurs have been added to portray the "cavalry" image of the Corps insofar as they perform many of the duties that used to be carried out by the cavalry ie scouting and reconnaisance. funnily enough this train of thought was also applied to the RFC when they were formed and in consequence during the 1920s when puttees were still being worn the RAF wore theirs wound cavalry fashion and trumpets were used instead of bugles, a practice carried out to this day. Also when battledress became the universal wear the RAF "hairy mary" had pointed light cavalry cuffs as opposed to the square cuff of the infantry. The AAC tunic carries echoes of the old RFC "maternity" jacket with it's lancer style shape so the addition of the spurs and sword slings is understandable. The band swords that you mention were normally carried from frogs rather than slings and are rarely seen these days, but the Guards bands still carry the old SLR bayonets as opposed to that of the SA80 and the Rifles band carry the old 18 inch bayonet both of which have taken over the position of the official pattern of band sword. Trooper

 

[Martin Tabony]

Another possible reason is that at the time of the coronation the Life Guards were stationed with the army of the Rhine and the RHG was the London based unit. There would have been little opportunity to train riders in Germany and so only a dismounted section appeared for the event. Trooper

Unless things have changed, and as you say they often do! The band of the regiment in (West) Germany is the Knightsbridge band, The regiment in Windsor has their band with them.

Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

You are quite right, the heavy, thick tunics effectively disguise the female form and the bun is the most obvious identification. It's surprising how many girls are now to be seen in the bands, and the King's Troop is positively swarming with the little darlings. The unit is now commanded by a woman, most of the trumpeters are female and quite a few of the drivers. Even the Household Cavalry have a female bandsperson and an Indian one at that. So much for the do gooders who always say the army is inherently racist. I think that it is safe to say that every band in the British Army now has a complement of the gentler sex in it's ranks. Trooper

The whole band sysyem has changed in the last couple of years. It used to be that the musician was a member of your regiment, but now they all join the new Army Corps of Music and are "attached" to a regimental band! For years the band had a problem with promotions. If there was no room for promotion in their own band, a bandsman could transfer to another band but as is the case in all regiments, you can only transfer up to a more senior regiment, never backwards or transfer to a corps (the only option for The Life Guards). I have a friend who started as a musician in 9th/12th Lancers and retired as Director of Music RHG/D. Now that they Corps of Music they can move to any band they want to because they are only on attachment. (And they spend all day swanning around in civvies anyway!)

Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

Johnny, I think the sword slings and spurs have been added to portray the "cavalry" image of the Corps insofar as they perform many of the duties that used to be carried out by the cavalry ie scouting and reconnaisance. funnily enough this train of thought was also applied to the RFC when they were formed and in consequence during the 1920s when puttees were still being worn the RAF wore theirs wound cavalry fashion and trumpets were used instead of bugles, a practice carried out to this day. Also when battledress became the universal wear the RAF "hairy mary" had pointed light cavalry cuffs as opposed to the square cuff of the infantry. The AAC tunic carries echoes of the old RFC "maternity" jacket with it's lancer style shape so the addition of the spurs and sword slings is understandable. The band swords that you mention were normally carried from frogs rather than slings and are rarely seen these days, but the Guards bands still carry the old SLR bayonets as opposed to that of the SA80 and the Rifles band carry the old 18 inch bayonet both of which have taken over the position of the official pattern of band sword. Trooper

I've never noticed different cuffs on the battle dress tunic, I'll have to keep an eye out for that.
So far this has become a bit of an unofficial uniform thread. I'm suprised no one else has chipped in. Perhaps we're the only ones with an interest!

Martin
Martin.

 

[johnnybach]

I think that many others ARE interested in the discussion - 2,775 viewers can't be wrong.

vVis-a-vis the "cost" discussion about the 1953 Coronation - I have read somewhere (but annoyingly can't remember where) that the british government WERE very worried abot it - at a time when rationing was still on for many things - and people were really scrimping - in order to get a black&White TV to watch the proceedings on! (My parents put 10% down - wit five bob a week for the remainder!!) Half our Street came in for the show! The Government also Knew that many Commonwealth Countries were planning to send very colourfully clad representatives - so Best Blues was a reasonable cost substitute for BD, for many Regiments. Any ideas on what it costs for todays best kit for (say) A Life Guard Trooper, Martin?

As to females in bands or other units. I DO think that it's about time that our manufacturers of castings started taking this seriously - and produce quite a few more of them. Until then, I will give the "bun" issue a try (hair do - of course).

What the AAC has shown, is that with the right "frosting" of badges and kit, the uniform can look very tidy indeed (good Welsh term that - tidy). Not so sure about the sword slings though. I have a feeling that they might disappear some day!

Incidentally, that's why I always try to put a date on my toy soldiers. Any disputes in the future over how they look, and I can always say "That's how they looked at the time".

This thread has continued to take yet another interesting turn. A very interesting debate. Thanks all, johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Below is my Mounties band - as it stands at the present.

Another view: just noticed - base not finished on one!

Earlier viewers may note that the band is looking more impressive (hopefully!) - as the numbers grow. It will eventually have 36 members.

I will be changing the date for the band from my original thought - of around 1930 - to the 1950's. A brief outline of it's history might explain why.

The RCMP was formed in 1920 when many separate units, including the North West Mounted Police came together as a Nation-wide force. The earliest attempt to form a band came in 1934 - but due to the economic climate at that time - it was not until 1938 that a part-time band was actually formed. The band performed before King George VI and Queen Elizabeth (Queen Mother) in 1939. A second band was formed in 1949 - and frequently performed merged with the first band. This combined band performed in front of Princess Elizabeth and Prince Phillip in 1951, when they visited Canada. They also played in Ottawa in 1953 to celebrate the Coronation. The band flourished in it's heyday during the 1950's and a full-time band was created in 1958. For the next 30 or so years the band flourished - though it was eventually disbanded in 1994.

I prefer to think of it in the 1950's - so am dating it c.1950. The instruments used and band make-up are hypothetical - but could have been around at that time.

Will post a final picture - when they are all present and completed. johnnybach

 

[Martin Tabony]

Very expensive! the last time I wore it (1984) it cost £15000 per trooper. Then the horses kit, you wouldn't believe how much a new sheepskin costs.
Any numbered kit goes missing and it's an imediate S.I.B. case. (numbered kit is helmet,sword,front and back plates.) And contrary to what certain magazines have said in the past the plumes are still made of horse hair (except RHG/D officers, theirs is made from yak hair.)

Martin

 

[trooper]

Well, Johnny has started listing all the companies selling castings. The main interest seems to be bands so I decided to go through my books and make a list of all that deal with bands and musicians. I know there are references to bands in other books as well but my list just shows those concentrating on the subject.

Music in State clothing.
The Regimental Band, pipes and drums of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards.
The Drum
The Royal Marine Band Service.
Band Uniforms Vol 1..Cavalry
Band Uniforms Vol 2..Household Division
Music in Blue
The story of British Military bands. Vol 1 Cavalry and Corps
The story of British Military bands. Vol 2 Guards and infantry
The story of British military bands. Vol 3 Infantry and Irish
Pipes and drums of the London Irish Rifles
Yeomanry drum banners and mounted bands
Military bands and their uniforms

Let's hope we can get some additions to that as well. Trooper

 

[thebritfarmer]

Very nice johnny but unfortunately the RCMP never had a band so it is best you send those figures to me for disposal...........just to save you any embarrassment like

 

[thebritfarmer]

Very expensive! the last time I wore it (1984) it cost £15000 per trooper. Then the horses kit, you wouldn't believe how much a new sheepskin costs.
Any numbered kit goes missing and it's an imediate S.I.B. case. (numbered kit is helmet,sword,front and back plates.) And contrary to what certain magazines have said in the past the plumes are still made of horse hair (except RHG/D officers, theirs is made from yak hair.)

Martin

Bloody hell that is a lot a cash even for todays standards.

 

[johnnybach]

We're pretty soon going to have an encyclopedia of where to go for them , what to read and with Jeff's help - how to do it - of painting castings! Lovely. Thanks for that list trooper - I'll keep my eye open for some of those.

I stll like my two volumes from W Y Carman - as they have plenty of pictures by Richard Simkin - of the era I like best.

HOW MUCH!! - no wonder OBL (our beloved leaders) don't want to stump up any more cash for best uniforms!

I take it you don't like the boys in cowboy hats then Scott? I chose these to fulfill a boyhood fantasy ( and have something easy to do at Xmas). I only had one mountie then - and he only had one arm and very little red coat left - but was ALWAYS on the goodies side!

Didn't you just love the Mounties Lumberjack song by the Monty Python Crew?

johnnybach.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Well, Johnny has started listing all the companies selling castings. The main interest seems to be bands so I decided to go through my books and make a list of all that deal with bands and musicians. I know there are references to bands in other books as well but my list just shows those concentrating on the subject.

Music in State clothing.
The Regimental Band, pipes and drums of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards.
The Drum
The Royal Marine Band Service.
Band Uniforms Vol 1..Cavalry
Band Uniforms Vol 2..Household Division
Music in Blue
The story of British Military bands. Vol 1 Cavalry and Corps
The story of British Military bands. Vol 2 Guards and infantry
The story of British military bands. Vol 3 Infantry and Irish
Pipes and drums of the London Irish Rifles
Yeomanry drum banners and mounted bands
Military bands and their uniforms

Let's hope we can get some additions to that as well. Trooper

A newish book called "Forgoten Armies" 1907-1914 is excellent. Water colours by Haswell-Miller that he made on his tours around Europe. A true uniform study including lots of back views. Published by Shire and available from Amazon for about £20.


Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

We're pretty soon going to have an encyclopedia of where to go for them , what to read and with Jeff's help - how to do it - of painting castings! Lovely. Thanks for that list trooper - I'll keep my eye open for some of those.

I stll like my two volumes from W Y Carman - as they have plenty of pictures by Richard Simkin - of the era I like best.

HOW MUCH!! - no wonder OBL (our beloved leaders) don't want to stump up any more cash for best uniforms!

I take it you don't like the boys in cowboy hats then Scott? I chose these to fulfill a boyhood fantasy ( and have something easy to do at Xmas). I only had one mountie then - and he only had one arm and very little red coat left - but was ALWAYS on the goodies side!

Didn't you just love the Mounties Lumberjack song by the Monty Python Crew?

johnnybach.

Just an idea but before they were "Royal Canadian" they were "North West" and they had a band that wore white foreign service helmets and a red plume, so if you want something different but on the same theme.

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

Hi Martin - thanks for the idea of the North West mob.

In actual fact - a picture of a guy playing the Sousaphone - and wearing the side pill-box type hat of that force - started me off on this idea to begin with. He was playing in a group dressed in the various outfits worn by some of the earlier bandsmen. (I think they were re-enactment people).

As I didn't have a sousaphone in my collection - I wondered how to get some.
So:
British bands were out - they don't use them.
I used to have a Mountie as a child
I knew Dorset Soldiers had a mountie band
I wanted something easy to do over Xmas.

Those four ideas gelled - and lo, a Mountie Band was born - with sousaphones!

It might be fun at some future point - when I run out of ideas (or kick the bucket first!) to have a go at one of those bands, as you suggest. I have also had a vague ambition to have a bash at the Bahamas Police Band - the one that all the Britains fans love. They have the Wolesley type helmets too - so would be a bit different. If I do though, it will have 30 plus members in it!

The book you mention, by the way, must be out of print - 'cos none of the big book sellers have a copy. Shame that - rear views are not easily found very often.

cheers for now - johnnybach

 

[Martin Tabony]

My mistake it's "Vanished Armies" here's a link, it's even reduced in price but worth twice as much!

Martin

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vanished-Ar...7396/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296233666&sr=8-1

 

[Al Fisher]

A terrific book; but note that one plate is shown twice and one is missing. But fear not, an Internet search will tuen up the missing plate! The back of the dust cover shows an RN figure, but I couldn't find one in the book. But don't miss it . . . especially if you're a WW1 fan.

Al